Did some investigating today....again

Recently the subject of oil filters came by here and it's on down the trail so I am opening this comment because I feel Fram is getting a bad rap. Possibly the reason may lie with the purchaser and their maintenance habits. Won't go into detail, but a product is only as good as the user/abuser.

Honeywell is the parent company for Fram and has been for many years. Do a Google search on that company and you will clearly see that they are BIG and have their fingers in a lot of high tech things. With that kind of pedigree one would seriously doubt that they would put up with junk in their portfolio.

What triggered this was I was servicing my 1963 Ford 2000 Diesel tractor today and realized that even though I only had 200 hrs. on the oil change it had been 2 calendar years.

I completed the servicing and decided to have another look at a Fram filter in diesel service for 2 years.

Here's what it looked like:



The filter is their low end available at WM. WWW spec says it gets 95% of the crud per the test listed on the page. Higher dollar, more sophisticated filters of theirs shown get more and the amount is listed.

That being the case the anti drain seal looks to be Neoprene rubber and upon closely examining it, was totally intact with no signs of wear, not silicon found in the higher dollar units. The end caps are paper with the filter material glued to the end caps, not metal slip over the end type like their higher priced filters and other popular filters have which I have dissected also but awhile ago. The material is paper, cellulose and tough cellulose at that.

With all that said, the filter media was totally intact and I had to rip it apart with considerable force to get it where you see it. If you look closely just above the media, where I tore it, there is some of the glue, still stuck to the end cap; no glue or paper failure here.

In this task I realized that metal end caps and silicon anti drain seal buy you nothing. The metal ring forming the center of the filter is firmly glued to the media which was very firm and did not move easily when pushed on. If you look at the small end of the anti drain back valve, and bracket that contains the pressure relief valve, you don't even need end caps per se as these two elements suspend and seal the steel tube to which the media is attached.

So, other than getting 4 to 4.9% increase in filtering improvement, I don't think I will continue to spend the extra bucks for their premium filters, nor worry about using Fram as compared to any other.

We all have our pets and currently I have no pet. I buy what is available "and feels good" at the time.

Hope this is of interest to some of you.

Mark

Looks exactly like my expensive aircraft filters
when I cut them apart.

That was interesting! You present a good argument in favor of Honeywell. IIRC a lot of the flap about Fram filters concerned only one brand of vehicles, (which we shall not mention at this time), which would make me wonder where it all started anyway. I also heard rumors in the early nineties, when many vehicle manufacturers went to 5W20 oil, that many police departments who bought the LTD Fords with the new 4.6 engines didn't want to have two different oils on hand, so they continued to use 10W30 or heavier oil and it would blow the filters apart. (Although I never heard it verified by anyone). Bottom line, a lot of rumors are just that, rumors, that are started by someone who for some unknown reason has a personal grudge, and attempts to discredit a well known brand.

You better do a little more investigating. Honeywell sold the Fram name to a company called Rank years ago.

the problem with the early 4.6L engines was that the oil pump relief valve bore was just the aluminum front cover and when too thick oil was used the valve would slam back and wear the bore , then the relief valve would stick and oil pressure would exceed 100 psi , making even Motorcraft filters swell . Ford started putting a hardened sleeve in the relief bore and the problem was for the most part history. I remember seeing that issue a few times.

I know that my previous post on Fram oil filters in B series Cummins engines started the latest posts on Fram filters. I am not anti-Fram filters. My post was only about my experience with Fram filters in Cummins engines. The year when Cummins raised the oil pressure in their engines, and Fram filters were plugging the piston cooler nozzles, I was working at a small town Chrysler dealership, and I replaced at least six engines. On one truck, the owner did his own first oil change with a Fram filter. He was really angry about the situation. To this day I only use Mopar or Fleetguard oil filters on Cummins powered pickups. I also only use Motorcraft oil and fuel filters on 6.0 Ford diesels. For most cars and trucks, I use Napa Gold, or Hastings oil filters, with very few problems.

Also the thicker oil would blow the cam followers off on cold start up.

Well their name is still on the carton as is "Made in the USA".

I run Rotella T 15-40 in my '60's vintage and Rot 5w-40 full syn. in my Cummins B 3.3 NA in my -07 Branson. Use multiple name filters in the Branson and the 2000. My 3000 is a cartridge and I use Ford for it.

My 2000 runs 40 psig at idle and 55 at PTO rpm. I don't know the oil pressure on my Cummins as it has an idiot light.

Well "beins" I have a tier 3, B 3.3 should I be concerned? I have run several brands of filters on it including Fram middle grade, the Tough Guard, and the same AC Delco fits it as my 2011 Silverado, Wix, Purolator, and Car Quest which is the Wix in a white wrapper.

Course my engine is 65 hp agricultural use, naturally aspired, and the B series covers numerous sizes in numerous installation categories, operated by who knows under who knows what kind of conditions with who knows what kind of preventive maintenance with what kind of GS factor in the mind of the associated person.

Heck I don't know. Regardless of what I use I'll probably die before I wear this thing out.

Only Motorcraft FL1A on my 661 Ford. Cant help
myself

Only took me 40 years to figure out some Fords really do best with a FL1A.

Texasmark1: Saving a few dollars on a CHEAP oil filter every two years is not good economy to me. Your gambling thousands of dollars against a few dollars. That is not good odds to me.

I have ran into two FRAM related filter issues. Both caused engine problems.

1) JD 4430 tractor. It had about 7500 hours on it. It got to where the owner could not start it in the middle of the summer without plugging the tractor in. It also was using oil too. He brought it to me to do a complete overhaul to it. I had it in the shop an removed the hood and the air cleaning system. I need to move the tractor over some before I disabled it. I hit the starter with the air filter off completely. The tractor started right up. I checked the air filter and it only had 50 hours of service on it an it looked clean. It was a Fram filter. I installed a OEM filter and the tractor would start normally. I went an got a NEW Fram Air filter and put it in the tractor. Tractor would not start. Re-installed the JD filter and the tractors started. So I changed the air filter, engine oil back to 15w40 + 50, and a JD oil filter. The tractor now has over 10,000 hours on it an starts normal and uses maybe a quart of oil between changes.

The Fram air filter was restricting the air flow an that was making it start hard and burn oil.

2) 2005 Ford Mountaineer with a 4.0 engine in it. They have timing chain tightener issues. Mainly the metal chain tighteners wear and drop metal filings into the engine oil. My best friend's vehicle. With about 50K for mileage he switched to Fram oil filters as they were $3 cheaper. After three oil changes his vehicle started to knock. I dropped the oil pan and found it had filings in it. I then checked some rod bearing and they were full of metal shavings. I cut the Fram oil filter apart. The paper was torn away from the end of the filter can. Allowing the oil a straight shot through with ZERO filtering.

He still had the old oil filters around from his prior oil changes. Everyone of the Farm filters were torn inside. The Wix and Motorcraft filters where not torn.

Yes the engine had a major mechanical issue but the other brands of filters caught the metal. The Fram failed to do that. Was poor quality of the Fram filter the reason the engine fail then??? I can't be sure, as the engine was full of metal.

So Fram filters are not going on anything I am going to pay the repair bills on.

Mark, did you always use the Fram extra guard filter, not one of the other ones sold by Fram (more expensive ones)?

JD, you raise a very good point. Why would anyone, considering the price of a car or truck, or a tractor for that matter, try to save a few dollars by putting in a cheap oil filter? I noted earlier that I only use Motorcraft oil and fuel filters on 6.0 Ford diesels. On one occasion, I installed an aftermarket fuel filter on a 6.0 and it was towed back in as a no start. When I removed the fuel filter, it was obvious that it caused the no start. The tow bill cost me over two hundred dollars. Hard experience, that is why I use factory filters on 6.0.

robgIN, thanks for the comment. Makes sense. I was working behind the parts counter of a Ford dealership when I heard about this problem, but never heard about the early oil pump problems. I heard this from our parts manager, but then most of the time,I only heard what he felt was important. (Know what I mean?)

Here is my personal FRAM story.

I had a 1985 Mazada Diesel pickup (They didn't make many of those and parts were a pain to get) that had 2 oil filers. After a change that used the FRAM filter less than 2 weeks later the oil light came on. Coasted into a service station and they showed me a tech bulletin about not to use FRAM on Diesels at that time.

Haven't ran one since and don't plan to.

From my research a couple of years back the best oil filter as tested by some young engineering student at CalTech was Purolator.

Just my 2 cents on this one.

A natural aspirated engine has no piston cooling nozzles to plug so no you probly don't have to be that worried . Still never ceases to amaze me that people will. Save five dollars on an oil change to use what a manufacturer recommends against using since they obviously know nothing about the machine

In the time that I have been reading these forums, I have seen a number of products bad mouthed. Most notably Pennzoil and Fram filters.

I was told by an old timer when I was a teenager that he had never lost an engine to Pennzoil. I took him at his word, and have been using Pennzoil ever since. Like him, I also never lost an engine to Pennzoil. I did lose one to Quaker State oil. Threw a rod on my 1962 Oldsmobile on Christmas Eve taking my buddy back to the airport to catch his flight back to his naval base.

I currently have a 1993 Taurus that has only seen Pennzoil and Fram filters since my ownership of it. Showing 186,000 miles and sounds as good as it ever did. Starts good, runs good, drives good. I also have a 2000 Explorer with the 4.0 engine. This has also seen only Pennzoil and Fram filters. Just turned over 243,000 miles on it yesterday. Like the Taurus, starts good, runs good, and drives good.

This "evidence" is ANECDOTAL. Has no basis in SCIENCE. All of the other posts are likewise anecdotal. This is not scientific evidence. It is only relating personal experiences.

I would like to see some REAL evidence. Scientific research methods applied. And, no, I am not questioning other folks experience, only stating that it is not scientifically valid. Personally, I am not trying to "save a few bucks" on an oil change. I am just using a product that I have reasonable faith that it will not ruin my engine.

It seems to me that if Fram was really that bad quality, they would be loaded with lawsuits - likely class action. AND, they would not be all over every parts store in town as the main brand sold.

Another thing I would say about oil is this: Too many drivers will put any old oil that they have handy into their engines. I have a theory that it can be more damaging to mix brands of oil than any one oil may be. Undesirable reactions between the different additives that each one use. Low quality "generic" oil with some department store or gas station's name on the container. Who knows WHAT might be in that container!!

Until proven different, I will stick with the combination that has worked well for me for over 40 years: Pennzoil and Fram.

In the process of attempting to reduce the types of filters I have on hand for various equipment, I used the Wix www comparison tables. Interestingly enough I found that numerous, and thus suspect all spin on filters, are rated at 300# burst. Course don't know how much deformation can take place before it goes bang!

Mark

Well sir have 2 answers to that:

1. Availability of OEM recommendation parts

2. Understanding why the OEM spec'd what he did. Obviously there is a LARGE element of "keep the lawyers poor" involved in the decision and then there is the diversity of the consumer. Who knows what kind of environment and situation Joe consumer will get his widget into.

My Branson is built in South Korea. Apparently there is a lot of rice farming. When you look at their ads, at least on my 6530C the rubber tires have extra large/length lugs and are stated to be for flooded field environments. Moving on, there are all these "to do" things mentioned in the owner's and service literature that have absolutely nothing to do with my environment nor how I use my tractor.

My 2c,
Mark

Well that's what I used to use on my 2000 until Wally World quit handling them. So I went to the Fram substitute as shown in the picture.

Mark

So what was the timeline on these occasions? Their current low end filter is the Extra Guard and claims 3x the filtration of other low end filters.

Just maybe when Honeywell took over the badge, they saw shortcomings and fixed them. As stated, the filter I dissected is an Extra guard. Obviously Fram did not come out with that nor the higher priced filters initially. Considering the company, I'd ask a couple of questions, one being why an oil filter company for your portfolio, and second, what have I bought and what needs improving.

I had an incident with a Ford diesel tractor not running properly when I bought a muffler for it that wasn't for a Ford but I didn't know at the time a muffler manufactured for another brand wouldn't work even though it fit.

In short, the Ford 3 cyl diesel cannot tolerate back pressure. The non-Ford spec'd muffler had baffles in it, restricting the flow. You couldn't see through it whereas when I was able to locate a filter recommended for that engine you could see through it and it worked just fine.

Mark

On that tractor I have had about 6 and before that I always used
the FL-1A which I think was on the tractor when
purchased.....that's how I knew to use it....was my first diesel
tractor.

One reason I started using the FL-8 was a friend gave me about
4 of them years ago as he sold the Ford truck in which he was
using them. By the time I ran out of them, WW didn't stock the
FL-1A so I started using the 8A.

Don't remember the year, but when purchased it had about 3500
hours on the tractor, completely stock, nar a wrench on it as I
could tell. Today it has 3511. Rot T 15 40 has been the oil of
choice for as long as I can remember and usually changed the oil
when it got solid black which was around annually. Age is
catching up with me on letting it go 2 years and not catching it.

Parts replaced over the years???????? batteries, a generator,
tires, muffler and tail pipe, rear PTO seal, (easily replaced), and
just recently water pump, fan belt, pressure cap, and lower
radiator hose which was severely weather cracked but held
pressure anyway. Very reliable tractor and fuel is just not
something you think about.

FL-1A is a premium rated filter per what I have read so one would expect better performance as compared to a 3x baseline filter.

Texasmark1: The time line would be about 12 years ago for the air filter and 2 years ago for the Ford Mountaineer.

I am just spooked out on Fram filters. In my younger days I used to use a lot of Fram filters as the local Farm supply place ( Kind of a for runner of TSC) carried Fram filters. I think the drive for CHEAP took over at the expense of quality.

Just asked because the current PF 8 is an 8A which means at some point an 8 had some changes and was upgraded to 8A. Rest of the curiousity is whether Honeywell did it or was done before their acquisition. I do know that Fram now uses a glass fiber impregnated paper which, I learned from another site is there to improve the consistency of cellulose. That may be the difference.

I've been an oil and tire nut all my life; just interesting following along with technology. Probably because my first vehicle was a '47 Chevy truck that I bought with money earned as a deck hand on a tug boat that summer, that had bald tires and heavy duty oil with something added (sawdust was the common slang) to help it not burn oil till it got off the lot. Changed the oil as soon as I got it home as it was diesel black and the cloud of blue smoke it produced afterwards would gag a maggot. Never forgot either.

Thanks,
Mark

You'll be happy to know that Pennzoil and Quaker State are now the same company. Oh, the company is called "Shell".

(quoted from post at 11:00:48 03/08/15) On that tractor I have had about 6 and before that I always used
the FL-1A which I think was on the tractor when
purchased.....that's how I knew to use it....was my first diesel
tractor.

One reason I started using the FL-8 was a friend gave me about
4 of them years ago as he sold the Ford truck in which he was
using them. By the time I ran out of them, WW didn't stock the
FL-1A so I started using the 8A.

Don't remember the year, but when purchased it had about 3500
hours on the tractor, completely stock, nar a wrench on it as I
could tell. Today it has 3511. Rot T 15 40 has been the oil of
choice for as long as I can remember and usually changed the oil
when it got solid black which was around annually. Age is
catching up with me on letting it go 2 years and not catching it.

Parts replaced over the years???????? batteries, a generator,
tires, muffler and tail pipe, rear PTO seal, (easily replaced), and
just recently water pump, fan belt, pressure cap, and lower
radiator hose which was severely weather cracked but held
pressure anyway. Very reliable tractor and fuel is just not
something you think about.

Click to expand...

Well that makes sense then. See, here is the problem, you are proclaiming that Fram is getting a bad rap and you are basing it on anecdotal evidence and then you try to prove the quality of the Fram filter as its made RIGHT NOW. You are looking at a different filter than what gave the bad reputation to begin with. Judging by the pictures you posted, that Fram is not the same as the Extra Gaurd filter that Fram made for years, probably decades... which I feel gave them a bad reputation. The one you are posting pictures of looks like an Tough Gaurd filter, which was a premium filter some years ago. IIRC, it was twice as expensive as a standard Extra Gaurd filter. Even back then, the Tough Gaurd filter was considered "OK" but certainly not the filter that earned Fram the nickname of Orange Can of Death.

To prove my theory, you would need to fully take apart the filter and measure the media, then compair the full details with known older filters. That would tell you if in fact, the current Extra Gaurd is now being built the same way that the Tough Gaurds were years ago. Just remember, as I have said in all of these oil filter talks, whatever you learn will only be as good as today, if you like how a filter is built, buy the lifetime supply NOW for that vehicle because manufactors can and will change how they are built.

One place you can reference older filters is looking at older posts online. Here is one, it covers a ton of filters around 1999 or there abouts. http://www.minimopar.net/oilfilters/reference.html#fram That site is how I learned about how poor a quality of a filter the Fram is. I had a Chrysler with a 2.2 and I was googling why I have valve noise on start-up. Turns out it was a well known issue with Fram filters on engines where the filter mounts other than threads at the top. Oil would leak out and you got valve noise till the filter filled up and let the oil flow. I changed filters to a non-fram, problem went away. If you were using the old style of Extra Gaurd, you were getting dry starts too, just couldnt hear it. But just because you couldnt hear it doesnt mean there wasnt damage and it didnt happen, the deficiencies of the Fram filter is well known and all over the internet, almost since Al Gore invented it. People dont hate on Fram because its fun, they do because its true. You should do some more research before you blindly defend Fram, they aint worth sticking up for, they built garbage for years and years, relying on marketing to keep them afloat. In fact, depending on what you find out, it could be proof that the internet and people showing whats in the deadly orange can put pressure on Fram to change things (making the premium Tough Gaurd that was OK into the standard Extra Gaurd).

Good luck in your search, the information is out there, all you have to do is look for it.

I been using fram oil and air filters on my 5 GM truck diesels since 96, combined well over a million miles on them.
I never had a single problem.

just saying.

(quoted from post at 20:51:48 03/08/15) I been using fram oil and air filters on my 5 GM truck diesels since 96, combined well over a million miles on them.
I never had a single problem.

just saying.

Click to expand...

The truth is out there, all you have to do is look. Or cut open a few oil filters for yourself and compair them, thats what other people have done (as have I). Unless you think they are making things up. I mean, its not like people just picked an oil filter to gang up on and try to put out of business, its facts that nobody, including yourself, can deny.

Just saying...

Also piston cooling nozzles can be plugged by bubba down at the jiffy lube when he drops a little piece of the oil container cap seal in the oil fill hole

Amazing how time flies when you are having fun. I started this post back on Mar. 7 and had to find it to apologize to you. Thought it got spoofed but it didn't....just moved way on down the line......this site is mighty busy.....must be a lot of coffee drinking.....Ha! Sorry couldn't resist.

You sir said that Honeywell had sold Fram to ..................

I replied that the paper container in which a filter I had on hand, thought it not that old, had Honeywell as the manufacturer and Made in the USA.

Well sir they apparently sold the company as you said but to whom? The new filter I bought today, a XG 3714 had the following on the container with a date, probably the date of the acquisition, of 2012.

Fram Group Operations, LLC
Danbury, CT., 06810

The Made in the USA survived.

Sorry for the confusion,
Mark