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Is salt on the nations roads an environmental issue?

Geo-TH,In

Geo-TH,In

Well-known Member
Is salt on the nations roads an environmental issue? We are putting tons upon tons of it on roads, bridges, streets. It causes cars and trucks to rust. Does it hurt the water supply? Or cause any health problems?

What's the difference between salt and SEA SALT? I always thought salt is salt, NaCl.
 
I think it is.Here in the desert southwest they use Mag/cloride.The word is that the lower altitudes/water sheds have to remove the salt before it gets to Mexico.That's just what I've been told.....
 
Salt is generally NaCl - Sodium Chloride. Salts of Iodine are generally added to salt that is to be used as table salt, as Iodine is a vital nutrient. Sea salt contains a host of trace elements, minerals, and dissolved metals, as is found in sea water. Sea salt is the result of evaporating the water off of sea water. Supposed to be better for you.
 
being a structural civil engineer i believe it is destroying our infrastructure unbelievable how it corrodes steel and concrete
 
Salt is salt. Sea salt is just a marketing ploy to hook the purist elite who only consume pure, organic ingredients.
 
Like everything else, it depends, in moderation it is fine, A Canadian just won a lawsuit against their government for damage to his field and crops, the government entity responsible for the road along his field apparently applied way too much salt which damaged his crops..
 
sure its environmental issue where do you folks think it goes when it dun it job it melts ice and snow so it is in the water supply it runs down stream with the water into lakes and rivers then into the ocean. but i will bet not many tree huggers will say any thing as they want to get work and back. As to chloride it is loaded with salt that way it does not freeze in tractor tires
 
And even worse yet is the "brine" as they call it which I understand is calcium chloride like in your rusted up tractor rims ! That stuff sure eats up metal.
 
Just look at any vehicle driven in an area that uses salt, and think about. It does the same thing to vegetation in the long run.
 
I agree. After inspecting and watching over demolition and reconstruction of bridges. Unbelievable the deck and superstructure damage done by salt.gobble
 
Yes , it will contaminate the water supply . Some areas have a layer of clay between the surface and aquifer that protects the aquifer. But salt that is flushed into the street drains and reaches rivers and lakes is also not good for ecosystem and some municipalities also use it for drinking water. If salt levels are too high in our drinking water , people with high blood pressure will be affected and that's why the water is monitored .
 
I don't think it can help anything in the streams, rivers, etc. I put down over 300 tons in a winter, imagine how many other people do, plus the cities, counties and state. If you watch semi traffic around here, some of what you see is bulk salt or bagged and pallets on a flatbed. A lot of its use is directly tied to the sue happy world we live in. My clients would rather spend a little to try and keep out of a courtroom from slip and fall accidents. I'm getting 22 tons dropped in the drive on Friday...
 
Sodium Chloride. It's the chlorine in it that does the damage. Dow Chemical uses a process to separate the two into sodium and pure chlorine (deadly and corrosive) Main use for chlorine is disinfecting. A company in St Louis MI builds the equipment that takes pure chlorine and blends it and makes bleach. They sell these and the safety scrubbers that go with them all over the world not only to paper plants but waste treatment plants. I don't recall what they use the sodium for but it is deadly also. I worked there once and in the scrubber test room with all their hazz- mat garb on it turned their socks purple. And yes , the Guberment would rather dwell on cow manure run off than road salt and other added chemicals in it by the thousands of tons each winter and on gravel roads in summer.
 
If people would learn how to drive in winter like they used to, we wouldn't need to spread all this salt.

Used to be you didn't see the road surface from December to March. It was covered in packed snow, and you drove on it. What was nice was the packed snow filled in the potholes so you had a nice smooth road 4 months out of the year.

Now, they have to burn everything down to bare pavement because people can't figure out how to drive on the snow anymore.

It's amazing how any time there's a little snow on the road, it's an absolute disaster around here. Traffic slowed to a crawl. Cars in the ditch all over the place. Fender benders every thousand feet.
 
sea salt has many other salts than NaCl. Hense a different taste and other health benefits. My defination salt in what is left after the reaction on an acid and a base, generely giving a "salt" and often just water.
 
When did the "used" to know how to drive? I know salt has been used in NE Kansas since before I was born - meaning the last people to know how to drive have to be close to 70 years old - or older.
 
Excessive amounts of salt can cause environmental damage.
If an individual uses excessive amounts of salt or any other chemical, it becomes an "environmental issue" with the tree hugger set.
If a government entity, be it city, state or federal, uses excessive amounts of a chemical, that is an entirely different situation.
 
Sea salt is a marketing phenomenon. The only difference is one is mined from dirt and the other from water. Neither one is better than the other.
 
There has been a landmark court case here in southern Ontario that has set a precedent in Canadian law. A farmer sued the county because road salt had contaminated his field and reduced his yields. He was awarded $140,000 for damages. Townships,counties and Provincial highway authorities are squirming , they are caught between law suits for damages vs lawsuits for accidents if roads are not winter maintained. A lot of road superintendents are having to make tough decisions about whether to salt or not .... and beet juice doesn't cut it in southern Ontario when its -23*C either!
 
HEY... They used cinders back then. Remember? You would see these black speckles all over the road. O wait...Industry doesn't use coal in power plants and boiler rooms, etc. Gave you nice traction and after winter the rain would wash them to the side and into the grass. Salt not only rips up you r vehicle, in does a number on cement, asphault, and steel bridges. If everything was made out of stainless steel....?
 
Years ago we had a neighbor who was an engineer in a large factory. He said the factory's water discharge couldn't contain over a certain small amount of salt, meanwhile the city was dumping tons of salt on the streets that ended up in the same place.
 
I know that the power plant where we plow snow has an environmental director and she is concerned about where and how we store our salt sand, We are also not allowed to pile snow where the melt will allow our salt sand to drain into the river without being settled out in their storm drainage system.
 
It has to have fish poo, dead fish, and who knows what else. After reading the following I'm not sure sea salt is all that great.

Unrefined sea salt contains small amounts of magnesium and calcium halides and sulphates, traces of algal products, salt-resistant bacteria and sediment particles. The calcium and magnesium salts confer a faintly bitter overtone, and they make unrefined sea salt hygroscopic (i.e., it gradually absorbs moisture from air if stored uncovered). Algal products contribute a mildly "fishy" or "sea-air" odour, the latter from organobromine compounds. Sediments, the proportion of which varies with the source, give the salt a dull grey appearance. Since taste and aroma compounds are often detectable by humans in minute concentrations, sea salt may have a more complex flavor than pure sodium chloride when sprinkled on top of food. When salt is added during cooking however, these flavors would likely be overwhelmed by those of the food ingredients.[42] The refined salt industry cites scientific studies saying that raw sea and rock salts do not contain enough iodine salts to prevent iodine deficiency diseases.[43]
 
(quoted from post at 12:16:21 01/27/15) ... And yes , the Guberment would rather dwell on cow manure run off than road salt and other added chemicals in it by the thousands of tons each winter and on gravel roads in summer....
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You dont expect the gov't to go after itself, do you? Have you ever seen the EPA sue the DOT? Didnt think so. :lol:
 
The solution to pollution is dilution.

That being said, right at the source where it enters the streams it will cause problems with aquatic life.

Gene
 
The only reason that the states use as much salt as they do is because you people ask for it.
#1 it takes you 30 minutes to get to work on good roads. It is ice and snow you leave at the same time and have a accident. A lawyer tells you he will got you big bucks. Your insurance company says keep the roads clear.
#2 you are talking on your phone and have a accident. You sue, your insurance co. yell keep the roads clear.
Slow down and stay home till the roads are plowed and quiet having accidents and the insurance co. will quite tell the states to clean the roads off.

Bob
 
It might depend on how much sand is in the soil. Sharp sand gives some traction on ice, it works best when mixed with salt. River sand with its rounded shape can act like bearings or marbles. Wet clay mud is almost a lubricant.
 
(quoted from post at 15:25:26 01/27/15) Is salt on the nations roads an environmental issue? We are putting tons upon tons of it on roads, bridges, streets. It causes cars and trucks to rust. Does it hurt the water supply? Or cause any health problems?
Click to expand...

Yes, IMO it is a problem. There's no way you can continually dump tons and tons of salt on the same area every winter and not have some effect. I'm talking just environmental. As a far infrastructure and vehicles, that's simply a fact. Terrible on that.
 
(quoted from post at 19:41:19 01/27/15) Right now it is an issue in NY Adirondacks.
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Everything and anything is an issue in the Adirondacks! It's like saying "It's an issue in California." The Adirondacks, like the rest of NYS, are becoming the the land of "NO!".
 
(quoted from post at 16:51:34 01/27/15) Sea salt is a marketing phenomenon. The only difference is one is mined from dirt and the other from water. Neither one is better than the other.
Click to expand...

Not from dirt, from rock.
 
(quoted from post at 21:11:57 01/27/15) It might depend on how much sand is in the soil. Sharp sand gives some traction on ice, it works best when mixed with salt. River sand with its rounded shape can act like bearings or marbles. Wet clay mud is almost a lubricant.
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So called "sharp" sand doesn't work in highway sanders, because it will pack and "bridge over" and not settle down onto the conveyor. Drivers don't like having to go up on top of their load in the dark freezing diving snow and work the load of sand down to the conveyor. The sand has to be round and with minimal fines I order to go through the sander.
 

At the university, where I worked, they switched to potassium chloride for the sidewalks. They used regular road salt in the past, but it would kill the grass along the sidewalks about a foot out. The potassium chloride didn't do this. If we had a lot of snow and ice during the winter they would start out with sand and potassium chloride mix. When that ran out they would switch to a ground limestone mix. If it really got bad the were forced to use the cinders from the heating plant. That really made a big mess.

Used to be that the road crews only put enough salt in their sand piles to keep them from freezing. I see now a lot of salt gets dumped on the rods without any type of grit added.

How about we go back to using tire chains? I remember Dad putting them on after the first snow, and taking them off in the spring.
 
(quoted from post at 15:17:07 01/27/15) .........
Used to be you didn't see the road surface from December to March. It was covered in packed snow, and you drove on it. ......Now, they have to burn everything down to bare pavement because people can't figure out how to drive on the snow anymore.

........ Traffic slowed to a crawl. Cars in the ditch all over the place. Fender benders every thousand feet.
Click to expand...

Don't be ridiculous. It's not that people "can't figure out how to drive on the snow anymore." If we left the major roads and interstates unplowed and drove on packed snow, speeds would be cut in half FOR THE WHOLE WINTER! A 1 hr commute would be 2 EVERY DAY! An OTR trucker would take days to get to his/her destination and transportation costs would go up. Plus, a little thaw or rain followed by a refreeze would make the major roads impassable. Here is a pic of the dirt road (packed snow) in front of my property last winter after just such a circumstance. You could barely STAND on the road, let alone drive on it. Car would slide sideways if you weren't exactly on the crown of the road. Imagine this situation on an interstate:
mvphoto15625.jpg

The problem is that everyone wants to have solutions to problems that are risk-free, carry no adverse side effects and don't cost a lot. Sure, spreading salt has a downside in the environment but the alternative of not doing it here in the Midwest is not acceptable. There are also studies showing drugs and hormones ending up in the lakes from the urine of people who benefit from those things. What do we do? Ban those substances and let people suffer or die? We can't let the tree-huggers and eco-Nazis dictate EVERY aspect of our lives. Period.[/img]
 

Salt Costs more than what it gains. There must be a powerful lobby selling salt. Then again the general public figure they should be able to drive 15mph over the speed limit November through March on bare dry roads.
 
(quoted from post at 14:00:13 01/28/15)
Salt Costs more than what it gains. There must be a powerful lobby selling salt. Then again the general public figure they should be able to drive 15mph over the speed limit November through March on bare dry roads.
Click to expand...

I have seen a huge increase in the rate of road clearing in my 50 years of driving. The expectation here in southern NH is nothing more than wet as soon as a heavy snow stops falling. Light snowfalls will be kept from slowing traffic for the duration of the storm.
 
(quoted from post at 22:00:13 01/28/15)
Salt Costs more than what it gains. There must be a powerful lobby selling salt. Then again the general public figure they should be able to drive 15mph over the speed limit November through March on bare dry roads.
Click to expand...

Salt on slick roads saves lives. Wouldn't that be enough of a gain compared to the price of a little salt?
 
(quoted from post at 09:07:56 01/28/15)
(quoted from post at 15:17:07 01/27/15) .........
Used to be you didn't see the road surface from December to March. It was covered in packed snow, and you drove on it. ......Now, they have to burn everything down to bare pavement because people can't figure out how to drive on the snow anymore.

........ Traffic slowed to a crawl. Cars in the ditch all over the place. Fender benders every thousand feet.
Click to expand...

Don't be ridiculous. It's not that people "can't figure out how to drive on the snow anymore." If we left the major roads and interstates unplowed and drove on packed snow, speeds would be cut in half FOR THE WHOLE WINTER! A 1 hr commute would be 2 EVERY DAY! An OTR trucker would take days to get to his/her destination and transportation costs would go up. Plus, a little thaw or rain followed by a refreeze would make the major roads impassable. Here is a pic of the dirt road (packed snow) in front of my property last winter after just such a circumstance. You could barely STAND on the road, let alone drive on it. Car would slide sideways if you weren't exactly on the crown of the road. Imagine this situation on an interstate:
mvphoto15625.jpg

The problem is that everyone wants to have solutions to problems that are risk-free, carry no adverse side effects and don't cost a lot. Sure, spreading salt has a downside in the environment but the alternative of not doing it here in the Midwest is not acceptable. There are also studies showing drugs and hormones ending up in the lakes from the urine of people who benefit from those things. What do we do? Ban those substances and let people suffer or die? We can't let the tree-huggers and eco-Nazis dictate EVERY aspect of our lives. Period.[/img]
Click to expand...

We had 3 small lakes here poisoned from the state salt storage being done improperly. The lakes ended up 3 times more saline than sea water, and several hundred people had the their wells contaminated. I looked at one place, all the plumbing had been destroyed, the salt had rotted out everything. The lakes cannot support life, even plants won't live in it.
 
(quoted from post at 00:37:10 01/29/15)
(quoted from post at 09:07:56 01/28/15)
(quoted from post at 15:17:07 01/27/15) .........
Used to be you didn't see the road surface from December to March. It was covered in packed snow, and you drove on it. ......Now, they have to burn everything down to bare pavement because people can't figure out how to drive on the snow anymore.

........ Traffic slowed to a crawl. Cars in the ditch all over the place. Fender benders every thousand feet.
Click to expand...

Don't be ridiculous. It's not that people "can't figure out how to drive on the snow anymore." If we left the major roads and interstates unplowed and drove on packed snow, speeds would be cut in half FOR THE WHOLE WINTER! A 1 hr commute would be 2 EVERY DAY! An OTR trucker would take days to get to his/her destination and transportation costs would go up. Plus, a little thaw or rain followed by a refreeze would make the major roads impassable. Here is a pic of the dirt road (packed snow) in front of my property last winter after just such a circumstance. You could barely STAND on the road, let alone drive on it. Car would slide sideways if you weren't exactly on the crown of the road. Imagine this situation on an interstate:
mvphoto15625.jpg

The problem is that everyone wants to have solutions to problems that are risk-free, carry no adverse side effects and don't cost a lot. Sure, spreading salt has a downside in the environment but the alternative of not doing it here in the Midwest is not acceptable. There are also studies showing drugs and hormones ending up in the lakes from the urine of people who benefit from those things. What do we do? Ban those substances and let people suffer or die? We can't let the tree-huggers and eco-Nazis dictate EVERY aspect of our lives. Period.[/img]
Click to expand...

We had 3 small lakes here poisoned from the state salt storage being done improperly. The lakes ended up 3 times more saline than sea water, and several hundred people had the their wells contaminated. I looked at one place, all the plumbing had been destroyed, the salt had rotted out everything. The lakes cannot support life, even plants won't live in it.
Click to expand...

That's unfortunate. The blame needs to be lain on whoever set up their storage system, not the salt. A high enough concentration of anything will damage a water source. Has the state DOT made any retribution for their mistake?
 

There's a happy medium between glare ice and bare pavement. Right now we've gone way, way overboard on the salt. That's due in part, I'm told, to the insurance industry and in part to the public that is basically incapable of understanding the concept of not driving like it's July. We need to swing back the other way to a reasonable center of the road (pun intended). Our town has payed for new wells because of salt contamination. Of course it was in the wrong spot and someone should have noticed over 20 years that water runs down hill. But it is what it is. We've gone too far.
 
(quoted from post at 16:51:35 01/28/15)
(quoted from post at 00:37:10 01/29/15)
(quoted from post at 09:07:56 01/28/15)
(quoted from post at 15:17:07 01/27/15) .........
Used to be you didn't see the road surface from December to March. It was covered in packed snow, and you drove on it. ......Now, they have to burn everything down to bare pavement because people can't figure out how to drive on the snow anymore.

........ Traffic slowed to a crawl. Cars in the ditch all over the place. Fender benders every thousand feet.
Click to expand...

Don't be ridiculous. It's not that people "can't figure out how to drive on the snow anymore." If we left the major roads and interstates unplowed and drove on packed snow, speeds would be cut in half FOR THE WHOLE WINTER! A 1 hr commute would be 2 EVERY DAY! An OTR trucker would take days to get to his/her destination and transportation costs would go up. Plus, a little thaw or rain followed by a refreeze would make the major roads impassable. Here is a pic of the dirt road (packed snow) in front of my property last winter after just such a circumstance. You could barely STAND on the road, let alone drive on it. Car would slide sideways if you weren't exactly on the crown of the road. Imagine this situation on an interstate:
mvphoto15625.jpg

The problem is that everyone wants to have solutions to problems that are risk-free, carry no adverse side effects and don't cost a lot. Sure, spreading salt has a downside in the environment but the alternative of not doing it here in the Midwest is not acceptable. There are also studies showing drugs and hormones ending up in the lakes from the urine of people who benefit from those things. What do we do? Ban those substances and let people suffer or die? We can't let the tree-huggers and eco-Nazis dictate EVERY aspect of our lives. Period.[/img]
Click to expand...

We had 3 small lakes here poisoned from the state salt storage being done improperly. The lakes ended up 3 times more saline than sea water, and several hundred people had the their wells contaminated. I looked at one place, all the plumbing had been destroyed, the salt had rotted out everything. The lakes cannot support life, even plants won't live in it.
Click to expand...

That's unfortunate. The blame needs to be lain on whoever set up their storage system, not the salt. A high enough concentration of anything will damage a water source. Has the state DOT made any retribution for their mistake?
Click to expand...

It is not always easy nor correct to lay blame and to crucify someone. Time and practices and public opinion change. Those salt storage facilities could have been originally set up 80 years ago intended for storage of much smaller quantities. They most likely grew without anyone making a significant decision. Salt was stored out in the open without a thought about runoff until 25 years ago. Even you if YOU were there fifty years ago would probably have approved it.
 

Real snow tires and drive for the conditions would be cheaper. Plus the savings on rusted out vehicles, corroded bridge decks and salt contamination of fresh water.
 

I was told by a pretty reputable guy(my father) back in '78 or '79 ,after Lake Placid,NY had been selected as the site of the '80 winter olympic games,the gov.,Hugh Carrey,decreed all paved roads in the area would be down to bare pavement.That was the start of gross amounts of salt spreading on roads in NYS.Salt was used prior to this but nowhere near the amount used subsequent to his decree.He is dead and gone but we're still down to pavement.

As to your vehicle rusting away because of salt after 5 or 6 years,if your state,provence,county or city has a sales tax their wish is that "it didn't take so long".
As to bridge structures rusting away prematurely because of salt,it's gonna cost a lot of money, so what,we can always raise taxes.
 
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