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Who's Ethanol

R

RMinVa

Member
I see there's another round of ethanol use that's been made. As usual it gets a little ugly.

Thing is I believe both sides and have stated there's a difference in ethanol in different areas. Different in how it's handled getting to the end user and different in what it was made from.

I don't hear or see for myself as many problems with ethanol in my area as did say 5 years ago. To cure the problems I had I use ethanol free gas. I only had problems with small engines. I run e10 in cars and trucks.

I read a lot and one bit of info I found that could (not saying it is) be different here in the east than mid-west is where does my ethanol come from.

First I remember a proposed ethanol plant was going to be built in the Hampton Roads area. It was in all out news papers in Va. Farmers in that area were getting excited because they'd have another place to sell corn. Well as the weeks went by everyone found out this plant would only use imported inputs to make ethanol. Well that put an end to the proposed plant being built. And I agreed with the decision. Can't use our product then you can't build the plant.

Another bit of information I found was we still import ethanol. I think most of this is made from sugar. I know what we get from Brazil is. This could (again not saying it is) be where our problems with ethanol came from in this area and others along the east coast. It seems we export ethanol and import it too. I guess shipping it around it gains value. LOL As I think back with the problems I had with ethanol matched the time frame in the chart I'll make a link for.

So to the folks that have no problems with ethanol I invite you to my area to get 5 gal. of gas at the little country store near me. Keep it for about 3 weeks and then use it in your chainsaws and lawn mowers. I believe that you have no problems. But I say that we do.

Here's the link:
imported
 

Read the ethanol thread below with interest, also the import figures in this thread. Short comment is that it seems that ethanol can be made more efficiently from sugar cane than grains. I wonder why ethanol plants aren't set up in sugar producing states.

I can get ethanol free gas locally. I check gas mileage regularly in my 2014 4 cylinder Tacoma. I figure I get 1-2 miles per gallon better for non ethanol than with ethanol added gas. Haven't had the nerve to compare price differences.

KEH
 
I haven't experienced any ethanol issues, ever. Can't say when EPA mandated we use E10, but E10 is all we have.
I have a 1950 farmall C, a 1953 Ford Jubilee, and about 15 other carburated small engines, mowers, tillers generators. I keep the gas tanks full, stabil in winter. I'm 65 and I've never drained a carb in my life. I can't say I've ever experienced an ethanol or rust issue in gas tanks or carbs. I keep all my equipment stored under roof, never allow it to sit outside in the elements. In summer, I even blend my own E20 for one tractor to stop dieseling. I give the Jubilee a quart or 2 of E85 to stop it from dieseling on hot days too.

IMO, rust in gas tank is caused by water. Leave a tank empty condensation will form, water will settle to the bottom of tank and cause rust. Ethanol in winter will help prevent gas line freeze up and it will soak up the water and you will burn it. I view ethanol as my friend. I have no rust issues. I have no ethanol damage either.

I think some are using ethanol as an escape goat for other problems they have caused.
 
"t seems that ethanol can be made more efficiently from sugar cane than grains."

Bingo.

Not much sugar cane is produced in the US and far less would be produced without taxpayer subsidies.

Perhaps ethanol as a motor fuel makes sense in equatorial areas such as Brazil where three crops of sugar cane can be grown each year but it makes little economic sense here.

Dean
 
I owe my living to ethanol as a maintenance tech in an ethanol plant. Mots of the problems experienced early on with ethanol were a side affect of the process. Bacteria grow VERY well in the same ideal environment as the yeast that is used to produce ethanol. One of the things done to control bacteria and infections in the process is to lower the PH to around 4 to 4.5. The problem is that the PH of the final product was still in that range, and when it absorbed moisture from the gasoline or the atmosphere, it formed a mild form of sulfuric acid and was very corrosive to metal fuel system parts. The company I work for corrected this PH imbalance a couple of years ago in it's final product which is why you are seeing less issues from using it.
 
George, FYI, the EPA did NOT mandate E10 usage. It is a side effect of a mandate passed in 2007 requiring a specific percentage of our fuels to come from renewable sources. That includes E85, biodiesel, and other fuels from renewable sources. The E10 is the result of overproduced ethanol that had been earmarked for use in E85. When the E85 did not sell well, the leftovers went into E10 - which does not even count against use of renewable fuels. Don't take my word for it. This is public knowledge that you can easily see for yourself. Remember, google is your friend <grin>.
 

Just add Startron to all your small engine gas and no problems with E10. Mine works fine after 1 year in the can.
 
My late model engines will not pencil out. I cannot make money by buying ethanol free. MIGHT get a little better millage but certainly not enough to offset the cost. I am with George Marsh on this one we must be in the good part of the country. Use e 10 in just about everything and no problems for last 10 years related to the ethanol. If anything less problems.
 
I haven't really had any issues with ethanol in anything so I guess Im lucky. Im sure it is processed if it is from cane, but years ago didn't they always put sugar in someone's gas tank to foul up the engine...lol they did in the movies, I know.
 
I have used E 10 for 25 years with no trouble with the exception of a 82 Mercury Grand Marguis. That car had vapor lock issues in hot July and Aug. weather. It was used in IHC 300 A 715 IHC combine and 400 Versitile swather and a IHC M loader tractor. Plus a few small engines such as on augers.
 
Very interesting. Thank you for posting this. I worked in textiles and then wood products most of my life. Amazing what lab folks know from testing and can solve many problems. The end user hardly ever hears about any of this.

I never had a carburetor problems. Just rubber fuel lines. Lawn mower and leaf vac at the same time. New lines and e-free and no more problems.
 
Then there is the foreign oil that we bring in, sent troops over to die to protect it. Well the Oil company's interest that is. I would rather buy American made fuel!
Here
 
(reply to post at 06:26:48 11/18/14) [/quot

Can some of our problems be related to the crappy gasoline ethanol is mixed with? I have used ethanol for probably 30 years with only two problems, both involving accelerator pump diaphragms in mid-seventies vehicles.
Click to expand...
 
Keith one reason for not using sugar cane in the US is shelf life.

Sugar cane is all ready to harvest at the same time, give or take a few months.

Once it is harvested it has to be made into ethanol within a few weeks or it will spoil.

So you have no constant supply of cane to produce ethanol year around here in the US.

In brazil since they have a longer growing season they can stagger the harvest to have a more constant supply.

Corn will keep for years if stored right.

Also what is the difference if the acres that could produce food are used for fuel. We have more corn than we can use for food times 2.

We have more food than we need in this country so we produce fuel.

Some countries have more oil than food.

We have both.

Gary
 
I prefer to import my ethanol from Mexico.
tequila_bottle_with_worm_hg_wht.gif
 
MTBE was a common oxygenate additive in gas prior to mid-late 2000's. It was determined to be very toxic to environment (EPA) and the most available substitute that would do the same as MTBE was ethanol. That is partly how it came into widespread use.
 
The original poster appears to be using 60 yr old tractor, tank and fuel system components and then attributing all his problems to the fuel he used. Could one expect any deterioration in a 60 yr old piece of equipment? He doesn't mention if his tank is kept full or not. He is re-refining his fuel to low quality 80 octane then his final fuel cost is 3.46 gal or 10% higher than the original product not counting his labor to re-refine. We can buy E-10 gas here for 2.73 gal which causes us no problems and no labor output to re-refine. As newer fuel technology is put into general use there could be bugs that are worked out in the new factory manufacturer system as one poster has mentioned. I think George summed it up - some are using ethanol as a scapegoat for other problems they may have caused.
 
If you look at exports from the same web site, you will see USA exports much more fuel ethanol than it imports.

California is anti- everything, and since the USA doesn't allow thrm to use mtbe any more they threw a fit, and set up their rules to only allow ethanol from Brazil to be used in their fuels.

So, we export a bunch of ethanol from the USA to Brazil, and then some gets shipped back up to California from Brazil. It doesn't make sense, but it is California.....

In your region of the USA, the rail lines don't seem to travel well. Or link up well, with the northern Midwest of the USA. It is a chronic problem. You guys will import soybeans, and even corn, from South America because you get cheaper shipping rates on the big boats than you can get from USA rail. Meanwhile we are drowning in corn and soybeans here in the Midwest. It doesn't make sense, but it makes dollars and cents I guess. Wish we had better rail lines from here to there.

We've used E10 for decades here in Minnesota, from the below zero winters to the 90 degree, 90% humidity summers, and it has worked out fine after a year of learning and working out the kinks. We also use 2-10% bio diesel for several years now and again after a year or two of getting used to it, it has worked out fine.

If we can do it in our climate variations, it likely can work about anywhere if people want to make it work.

If one is opposed to something, then even if it would be cheaper and easier, folks will find ways to oppose it and make it not work for them!

That likely is the big difference.

Anyhow, in many places, fuel ethanol does work and does make sense and cents. We even export our corn ethanol to Brazil, that should tell us something.

Paul
a174478.jpg
 
USA actually exports more ethanol to Brazil than what is imported.

We have what we have, they have what they have.

They can grow sugar cane, burn the pulp to power the ethanol plant.

Sugar cane doesn't grow well here in Minnesota, so really not much to do about it eh?

We can grow corn, turn the starch into sugar into ethanol, use the remaining protien for livestock feed, and come out pretty good.

Sugar cane doesn't need to convert starch into sipugar so they save a step.

Corn is producing protien feed for an extra value, as well as much easier to store and handle so is easier to supply a fuel plant 12 months a year.

It comes out pretty close if you look at the whole process.

The newest model is use corn stalks to make some ethanol and the biomass to make heat for the ethanol plant. Use corn to make ethanol as well. Make corn oil from the corn. Make protien feed from the oil.

So you put in corn and corn stalks.

You get out food grade corn oil, feed grade protien for livestock, and fuel ethanol from both the stalks and the corn.The cornstalks residue is burned so very little natural gas is used.

On paper that is more efficient than sugar cane, but got to actually do it before one can claim it. The first plant or two are just starting up to prove it so. If it works, I'm sure it won't take long for all plants to be concered over to work that way.

Paul
 
All this export/import talk... I say SO WHAT?!

It's about MAKING MONEY. Isn't that the AMERICAN WAY?

If I can make more money selling my ethanol to Brazil, and the next guy can make more money by buying different ethanol from Brazil, wouldn't we both be FOOLS if we did not maximize our profits?
 
Never had a problem with E10. I think that anytime something happens E-10 gets the blame. Probable would have happened anyway. I get a kick out of people who still use gasoline winter treatment . What do you think that is,,ALCIHOL so products like "Heat" are a wast of money and their manufacturers love it.
 
Don't think it was the EPA or the Feds that mandated ethanol, they do have some requirements for use of alternative fuels but who's to say what those really are as "alternate" or "sustainable" seem to be a synonym for "Political Correct" but I digress. Here in Iowa "alternative" or "Sustainable" power works for us, as we produce it to meet federal mandates and others are forced to pay for it, good for us, sucks to be anyone else. There are also state mandates, for instance a few years back in Wisconsin the nnalert were bragging about all the jobs their alternative/sustainable electricity mandate made, until someone pointed out all those jobs were in Iowa and Minnesota. Here in Iowa we can get allegedly "ethanol free" gasoline, it's labelled "regular" and costs more, the premium has ethanol and costs less (I hear Iowa doesn't tax ethanol or ethanol enhanced fuels). In Wisconsin you can get ethanol free fuel BUT it's premium, a higher octane than premium in Iowa, of course it costs more and it's only some brands that advertise ethanol free premium. In Michigan if you want ethanol free gasoline your best bet is to head to your local airport, the product is called 100LL or avgas, and yes it has lead so your catalytic converter will not be happy.
 
"USA actually exports more ethanol to Brazil than what is imported."

Could be.

Get the government out of it and watch what happens.

Dean
 
So many times I hear (read) that tired old line "never had any trouble." In reality, you may have had trouble, and blamed it on something else. In any case, that statement does NOT constitute scientific proof. Here are some facts:

1) Ethanol DOES attack rubber components in fuel systems. A proven FACT.

2) Auto parts stores in my area report sales of replacement fuel pumps increased by ORDERS OF MAGNITUDE with the increased use of ethanol and the reduced availability of non-ethanol fuel. While this does not constitute scientific proof, it does point to a trend.

3) Ethanol is hygroscopic. That means that it will absorb water from the humidity in the atmosphere. At some point, phase separation will occur.

4) Ethanol contains less BTUs of usable energy per unit as compared to petroleum fuels. This results in a loss of fuel economy. Laws of physics make this one true without further scientific proof required.

The bottom line is this: Follow the money.
If you live in the northeast, you will likely be unhappy with the ethanol in the fuel.

If you are a Midwestern corn farmer, you will LOVE ethanol. After all, it pays you a living, and a good one at that. When $4.00 corn is selling for $12.00 to ethanol plants, how could you not like it???

Again, follow the MONEY!!!!!!!
 
Oregon Public Broadcasting is about as abundant and green as they come. When they produce a half hour program warning not to use ethanol in boats you have to believe there's something to it. Any boat on the Columbia River or the Pacific Ocean that loses power is in grave danger. The broadcast interviews included fishermen, other boat owners and repair shops. When Oregon first mandated ethanol in all fuel it was such a disaster that they had to change the rule to allow non ethanol in premium only.

When they first mandated summer ethanol, a 1978 F-350 that I owned for years started vapor locking in hot weather under load. Didn't have a fuel choice back then and reluctantly had to replace the truck.
 
jimg.allentown
Basic Information

Reformulated gasoline (RFG) is gasoline blended to burn more clearly than conventional gasoline and to reduce smog-forming and toxic pollutants in the air we breathe. The RFG program was mandated by Congress in the 1990 Clean Air Act amendments. The first phase of the RFG program began in 1995 and the second (current) phase began in 2000.

RFG is required in cities with high smog levels and is optional elsewhere. RFG is currently used in 17 states and the District of Columbia. About 30 percent of gasoline sold in the U.S. is reformulated.

SO DOES IT REALLY MATTER HOW WE ENDED UP WITH RFG? EPA OR CONGRESS?
GEORGE
 


Reformulated gasoline (RFG) is gasoline blended to burn more clearly than conventional gasoline and to reduce smog-forming and toxic pollutants in the air we breathe. The RFG program was mandated by Congress in the 1990 Clean Air Act amendments. The first phase of the RFG program began in 1995 and the second (current) phase began in 2000.

RFG is required in cities with high smog levels and is optional elsewhere. RFG is currently used in 17 states and the District of Columbia. About 30 percent of gasoline sold in the U.S. is reformulated.

SO DOES IT REALLY MATTER HOW WE ENDED UP WITH RFG? EPA OR CONGRESS?
 
(quoted from post at 10:40:40 11/18/14) I have used E 10 for 25 years with no trouble with the exception of a 82 Mercury Grand Marguis. That car had vapor lock issues in hot July and Aug. weather. It was used in IHC 300 A 715 IHC combine and 400 Versitile swather and a IHC M loader tractor. Plus a few small engines such as on augers.
Click to expand...

That is the same experience I have had. The difference being my car was an 82 Old Cultass Ciera.
 
i live near 2 ethanol plants and no one is paying $12 for corn!
they are paying the going market rate both places have marketing people on board to watch markets and lock in favorable prices.
as far as having problems with ethanol i use it in my 3 old tractors and had no trouble with them.
chain saw weed wackers are a different story however go to phillips 66 and and highest octane they have
 
Just curious where your located, as I have never had any problems at my country store with ethanol gasoline. I leave it in saws, lawnmowers through the year and always start rite up. It even cleaned a rusty fuel tank in an ole tractor I bought. I'm in central Va
 
Like there never was an engine or fuel problem until ethanol came around.
Ethanol does not destroy rubber. Methanol does. And many of the oil companies pass off methanol as ethanol. PROVEN FACT!!!
 
The EPA mandates and regulates the total percentage of ethanol, bio-fuel etc. that refiners and blenders must use every year. The EPA has expanded the Clean Air Act of 1970 to justify there action on fuels as well as many other severe overreaches. This is what governmental agencies do, use every hook and crook to insiduously expand theie power and influence and continuously lobby for more tax payer dollars to further suppress economic growth and personal freedom.
 
I think a very small amount of MTBE would contaminate 1000's of gallons of water. So if the EPA put an end to it, I'm very happy they did.
 
how many have tested your E-10 to see if you have E-10 ? I live in collins ms nations largest TANK FARM and pipe line hub lots of fuel through here dayly , it gets the ethanol at a small bulkplant by the truck load and when there is a backup of trucks some don't wait to get the ethanol added
 
I hate the stuff! I don't run it in my small engines and hate putting it in my vehicle! I don't thing the gobberment has the right to force me to buy it! That's my problem. They are forcing me to support a back door subsidy and I don't believe in any subsidies!

And don't give me that "if you were a corn grower" crap. I, like many of my fellow vets and members of this board served this nation for what's best for the NATION! The Constitution and the Amendments! No where in there is any mention of special interest subsidies! IMO those who love subsidies and back door subsidies are benefiting from them and are no better than any other form of greed! If this makes you angry maybe you should take a good look at yourself! IMO you are part of the problem, not the solution!

Rick
 
You soon won't have to fret about the 10% ethanol mandate in Minnesota. On August 30, 2015 it goes to 20%. :wink:
 
Does your being a vet entitle you to speak for ALL of the vets in this country? And does being a vet allow you to make up your own "facts" as they suit your misguided political views?

In case you need help with those questions, BOTH come with a NO answer. Until such a time as you can get a grip on reality, quit including the rest of us as if we are all in agreement with you.
 
(quoted from post at 05:51:15 11/19/14) Does your being a vet entitle you to speak for ALL of the vets in this country? And does being a vet allow you to make up your own "facts" as they suit your misguided political views?

In case you need help with those questions, BOTH come with a NO answer. Until such a time as you can get a grip on reality, quit including the rest of us as if we are all in agreement with you.
Click to expand...

So the rest didn't serve for what was best for the nation? Is that what you are saying? I find that hard to believe. That's all I was saying about vets. That we collectively served for what's best for the nation.

What made up fact? Forcing us to buy anything is a form of subsidy to whom ever supplies that product. That can range from ethanol to medical insurance. It subsidizes those businesses by guarantying a certain amount of sales. I didn't say that it will ruin anything. I didn't say that it hurts fuel economy. I simply said I don't believe it's good for the country and it's a forced subsidy.

Rick
 
If you're just playing stupid for the fun of it, good news, you're winning...

Again, and I'll type slowly so you can keep up. You aren't the designated official spokesperson for all of us who served in the military. Quit trying to act like you are.

And from one vet to another, pretending you know what you're talking about even though you obviously haven't a clue isn't working for you either. And with your declaration that you're doing it for the good of the country doesn't change that fact.
 
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