Tier3 and Tier 4 engines

Does anybody understand the pro's and con's of these? Nearest I can figure the 4 has a little more emissions on it than the 3.
I'm thinking replacing an older tractor with a new 40-50 hp. tractor. I know some dealers have some new 3 tier tractors left that they claim will be better than the new tier 4 engines.
I just looked up my 2012 30 hp tractor and see that meet the criteria for a tier 4. They said on the small engines they just had to make a few adjustments. Although that tractor seems to use more fuel than it 30hp predecessor.
On the Farm Show this morning John Phipps said their new tier 4 large tractors were more economical than their older tractors.
I'm just trying to decide which way to go if I decide to make the move.

Stay away as long as you can. They both use EGR (Exhaust Gas Return)technology to slow the burn of fuel in the cylinder to reduce the formation of Nitrous Oxides. New Tier 4 engines use DEF Fluid this gives them better fuel economy over tier 3 because not as much EGR is used. Also the newer engines have many more electronic sensors on them to manage the emissions. These sensors lead to more Check Engine lights which can only be corrected at the dealership, which means more down time which means more expense to operate. If you can, find or use your older equipment for a looooong time.

May be mistaken but I gota ask.

New tier 3 tractors left???????????????

Did you really mean to say new Interim Tier 4 tractors left?
Tier 3 was 2006 to 2011
Interim Tier 4 was 2011 to 2014
Final Tier 4 is 2014 and on.

The move from interim to final is not a big a jump as it was from 3 to 4.

I do wonder what the smaller (under 174hp) tractors produced. Maybe the EPA had to use higher hp to make it look like more of a change, although in most farming practices now days, not a lot of under 174hp tractors left doing main work on farms.

I think the smaller (under 174hp) tractors have the same standards just different (earlier) dates.

Not to include all engines but the first would have been on road; small tractors; larger tractors; marine.
Marine is still on tier 3.
Some other large construction engines or stationary generator engines may still be tier 3.
But as far as I knew all farm tractors had at least moved to Interim Tier 4 a few years ago.

(quoted from post at 13:54:42 11/16/14) Does anybody understand the pro's and con's of these? Nearest I can figure the 4 has a little more emissions on it than the 3.
I'm thinking replacing an older tractor with a new 40-50 hp. tractor. I know some dealers have some new 3 tier tractors left that they claim will be better than the new tier 4 engines.
I just looked up my 2012 30 hp tractor and see that meet the criteria for a tier 4. They said on the small engines they just had to make a few adjustments. Although that tractor seems to use more fuel than it 30hp predecessor.
On the Farm Show this morning John Phipps said their new tier 4 large tractors were more economical than their older tractors.
I'm just trying to decide which way to go if I decide to make the move.

Click to expand...

Do a google search. Regulations varied by the year, HP and application.

John your graph is only for the higher horse power engines. 174-750 horse power. The smaller engines have a later roll out date. The under 75 horse power is just going into effect this year. I think. LOL

I will not buy anything with tier 3 or 4 engines in it. They all are a nightmare of electronics, EGR, and particulate filters. All of them will have a shorter life. The manufactures tell you this if you look hard enough.

So you burn more fuel and have a tractor that will need overhauled sooner.

What Philips forgot to method is that he is talking about how tier 4 engines are getting better fuel economy than tier 3 BUT still not as good as the later pre emission engines.

The cost per hour of operation is still much higher on the newer engines. When you do need repairs they are much more costly. Many of the repairs can not be done by anyone without a computer program to reset the emission systems. The companies actually are happy about that. You can't do your own repairs on much of it now.

For a 40-50 horse power tractor I would look for a 5-10 year old one with low hours. They can be found pretty easily. Most 40-50 HP tractors are not used hard.

What I understood was the dead-line dates depended upon the horsepower of the engines. With the small engines being last. I believe it was under 75 hp. That's what I meant by a few early 14 models were still available with the tier 3 engines.
What I read was the small engines were easier to meet the requirements. Most did not require the DEF fluid and sometimes just required a few adjustments.
As one suggested, I may start looking for a 3-4 year old used model.

i have been told (not positive it's true though), that tier 4 engines are identical to tier 2 except for the DEF addition, it was an AGCO tech (mechanic) who told me... I personally can not see the point of returning exhaust to the cylinder to be reburnt, the DEF on the other hand does seem a slightly better idea...

With the engines you are talking about, there are some different changes to meet emission regulations. Depending on the engine manufacturer, they may have used different technologies to meet the emission regulations set by the EPA.

Some of the technologies that are used to meet emission regulations are EGR, the Diesel Particulate Filter, and last but not least is the SCR/DEF system.

The EGR system puts cooled exhaust gas back into the cylinder to cool the combustion temperatures to prevent the formation of NOx. The way that this happens, is that the Exhaust gasses are inert, in other words, they will not combust the way that normal air would. All that the recirculated exhaust gasses will do is absorb heat, which lowers the combustion temperature. This system is comprised of the EGR cooler, EGR valve, and a venturie type system to create a pressure differential to measure the flow with sensors.

The Diesel Particulate Filter catches the soot (black smoke) and Ash (left over from additives in the oil and diesel fuel). Over time the DPF fills up with soot and ash, and needs to regenerate or clean its self out. During the regeneration process, a small amount of fuel is sprayed in to the exhaust stream, to react with the DOC (diesel oxidation catalyst) to heat up the DPF to burn off the soot captured there. These temperatures can rise up to 1200 degrees F. there are a series if different regenerations that can be performed, the most common one being passive regeneration (occurs naturally at approx. 600 degrees F.) and the active regeneration (needs diesel fuel dosing in the exhaust stream to create high temperatures. The ash can not be burned off, and must be cleaned through a manual cleaning process, and the filter must be removed to clean the ash out (typically after about 4500 hrs of operation). Some things that can be done to extend the life of the DPF filter is to used oils that are certified for use in engines with a DPF, and Ultra Low Sulfur Diesel fuel.

The last system that can be used is the SCR system where the Diesel Exhaust Fluid is injected in to the exhaust stream up stream of the SCR canister to convert NOx in to Nitrogen and di-hydrogen monoxide (water). There are a series of sensors to monitor this process and this system can be seriously damaged if DEF is not used.

Depending on the rated HP of the engine, it may only used one of the systems described above, or as many as all three of the systems described above. This is a brief overview of the three systems used in Tier 3, interim Tier 4 and final Tier 4 diesel engines. If you want additional information, I encourage you to do additional research on these systems and which ones are used on the engine of the tractors you are interested in.

Jared

I thought the smaller engines had a earlier roll out date not a later so I went and looked it up.

Interim Tier 4 dates
25 to 75 hp 2008
175 to 750 hp 2011
75 to 175 hp 2012

Final Tier 4 dates
25 to 75 hp 2013
75 to 750 hp 2014

There has not been a tractor under 750 hp built to tier 3 standards since 2012.
The only thing being built to tier 3 today is marine engines and "maybe" some heavy construction stuff; stationary generators.

If you were looking for 75 to 175hp; could find a dealer with a 3 year old brand new tractor still sitting on his lot; you could then buy a Interim Tier 4 engine. Other than that anything new is gona be Final Tier 4 technology.
If you want tier 3 in a small tractor you need to buy 7 year old stuff.

We have a 2010 Compact JD 50 hp. Think it is a tier 3. Absolutely a great little tractor.Doesn't have a converter. Does seem to use more fuel than the 6140 AC it replaced.But it is a hydrostatic trans, way better! We also have a interim-tier 4 Kubota 126 hp 2012yr. The Kubota uses less fuel than the 4040 JD it replaced. It does reburn ever once in a while. A pain, but doesn't affect your using it except it beeps. If you pull it hard never needs to re-burn. Last week using it on the auger wagon, just let it run about 1200 rpm while waiting for another hopper and it hushed. It uses no DEF fluid. Seems we have no choice that is the way tractors are now. Vic

John I don't know what 25-75 HP engines needed to be Tier 4 back in 2008. It was not AG tractors. I think that was other motors. That final date of 2013 is what the tractors where working off of. I called and asked a friend that is still an JD salesman about it.

The major tractor builders built a LOT of Tier 3 tractors last year just for inventory. They knew that there was going to be demand for them.

Another thing people are not talking about between Tier 3 and 4 is the added cost. On the smaller tractors (25-75 HP) it is between $3500-5000. On the larger tractors it is closer to $10,000.

JD

Like I said from the get go I was not sure of the dates.

The point I was trying to make was......
Most people think there was tier1; tier2; tier3; and tier4; engines.

When in fact there is tier1; tier2; tier3; tier4a; and tier4b; engines.

By the way the green picture is from a J.D. site and the yellow picture is from a Cat site.

(quoted from post at 20:00:20 11/16/14) John I don't know what 25-75 HP engines needed to be Tier 4 back in 2008. It was not AG tractors. I think that was other motors. That final date of 2013 is what the tractors where working off of. I called and asked a friend that is still an JD salesman about it.

The major tractor builders built a LOT of Tier 3 tractors last year just for inventory. They knew that there was going to be demand for them.

Another thing people are not talking about between Tier 3 and 4 is the added cost. On the smaller tractors (25-75 HP) it is between $3500-5000. On the larger tractors it is closer to $10,000.

Click to expand...

Is it the EPA's intent to regulate and over price equipment to the point we go back to envirementally sound natural use of horses, oxen and mules?

question? don't most plants use sulfur especially grasses,and don't plant utilize carbon dioxide,i've even seen an article of a field test of injecting diesel smoke into the soil with a positive yield response,a lot of this clean air agenda is hysteria and justified at our expense

The issue with sulphur is it causes acid rain, no hype, just the facts.

You were told correctly; the AGCO T4i engines are for all practical purposes T2-spec with the SCR aftertreatment added to the exhaust. This is why these T4i engines tend to be more fuel efficient than the T3 versions, even when the DEF consumption is factored in.

Id get the newest "old" diesel i could buy, new enough you could still get parts (probly any 'deere) but old enough that it doesnt have the computer crap and emmisions garbage. Less stuff to go wrong, you can work on it yourself and it will still work just as good as any new machine. I dont know about changes in fuel effiecency with the new stuff, but i doubt its that huge a differance to warrant all the possible later headaches you'll have when stuff aint working right.