OT--Decreasing American Skilled Workers?

We should all be concerned about the loss of skilled American workers in this country.
I retired from a large aluminum plant and years ago, they had an apprentice program for skilled labor that was subsidized by the federal government and that was lost. Today there are no apprentice programs in that plant!
It is also concerning to me that today the vast majority of auto mechanics are "parts changers".
Back in the late 60's through 70's I was automotive repair certified after schooling. Of all the mechanics I know today, none are certified, only know how to change parts by instructions!
I have a 2001 Ford Ranger that would occasionally reveal a "check engine" light. I could clear it and a few days later, it would return. I ran a scan and discovered it was running lean on left bank, later check revealed lean on right bank.
Knowing it was most likely a pollution warning indicator, I wasn't very concerned.
I finally checked for a vacuum leak after cleaning MAP sensor and the throttle body.
I found a cracked PCV hose and replaced it, and problem was corrected. Total cost for a ten minute replacement of the hose was about $6.00!!
I would bet that if I had taken this to the dealer, my repair bill would have been several hundred dollars after they "test changed" many related sensors!

One place had a welding class for new workers even though
there short of workers and have goverment contracts to fill
they closed the class not enough people can pass the drug
test.
It seems every body is in a hurry for a quick fix your idea of
taking time to fix things is what i do but people take cars in
and want it fixed now and would rather trade cash fot time
and labour look at fast food vs home cooking. speaking of
that has anybody heard of a skilled butchers vs a guy
grinding hamburger

All of us old real mechanics. Are dieing out. No one to replace us. Most of the ones today. Can only do what the puter tells them.

How many hours did it take you to find the bad hose? Your $6.00 repair could easily been $300.00 at any good shop,@100.00 per hr.
The schools turn out people who can barely read,and have know idea that 7:00am start time means 7:00am not 7:15.
Kids are raised in climate controlled houses,cars,schools and heaven forbid they ever go out side to play. No wonder they won t work where they might get dirty. If the states would take over what the schools teach again, instead of DC, the kids would learn skills needed in their state, not what some PhD thinks they need to learn.

Yep lots of knowledge and skills are being lost every time one of the old guys die. I see the lack of knowledge every day and it is sad that many do not even see that this country is dumbing down a lot

(quoted from post at 15:36:15 08/30/14) All of us old real mechanics. Are dieing out. No one to replace us. Most of the ones today. Can only do what the puter tells them.

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Yeah--Several years ago, My son bought a chevy camaro. with the crossfire injection. He bought it from a young girl that bought it new.
We knew the engine was idled way too high 1,800 rpm or so. She stated it had always idled like that and dealer could not fix?????
We bought this chevy camaro for her very low asking price and he took it to trade school and they pulled codes. It had several that were unrelated to the problem, so he paid chevy dealer to scan. Scan revealed the same codes.
I tested with a $12.00 vacuum gauge and verified my thoughts as to what the problem was.
It had a vacuum leak where the top manifold plate bolted to the lower manifold. Upon removal, we discovered loose bolts and app. 1" of MISSING gasket! Installed new gasket and fixed the high idle problem.
I took a cheap tool and a little mechanical knowledge of how to use one, and found the problem.
If he had the dealer do the repair, what would the cost have been after they replaced all the sensors?

Around here the Board of education and guidance councilors bear some of the blame.
Smart students were encouraged to be academics even though they were interested in the trades.
The "slower" and "problem" students were encouraged to take the trades.
Then in the 1980's the education system figured the future employment was going to be computers, medical, legal, engineering and the arts. The shops were torn out of the schools and replaced with computer labs.
A few weeks ago I toured my old high school during home coming. Some of the shop classrooms had new trades equipment installed.
How many young guys raised by single mothers in town are interested in the trades? Hunting or the outdoors for that matter ?

I remember at a threshing show someone couldn't get an IH crawler started. An older gentleman asked them if they wiped the distributor cap out, so the did and it started right up. I heard him say "Experience is better than knowledge...."

I think one problem today, is that most people don't care why something works as it does, it just does the job.
I always wanted to know why--for one example--does an engine have to fire before top dead center?
Most younger mechanics today can't tell you why!

I think for the most part it is all relative, I never poured a babbit bearing but my Grandfather sure did, same as thousands of other skills and vocations that have either been made obsolete or replaced by newer technology. Doing away with most vocational programs in high schools was a big mistake by the national education establishment.

farmerwithmutt hit the nail on the head...there are too few applicants who can pass the drug test. An apprentice program is useless if the pool of potential apprentices ia unable to pass the drug test.

Bingo, and insightful.

Sadly, such things tend to happen when people are paid to sit at home and watch TV.

Dean

When I was racing stock cars in the 1970s and 1980s, I once asked a GM technician if he knew of a formula to compute how many pounds of oil pressure were required in an engine to overcome the internal centrifugal force generated internally in a crankshaft at a given RPM.

In other words, while an oil pump is trying to pump oil into the crankshaft, centrifugal force inside the crankshaft is resisting the incoming oil.

All I got was a blank look. Granted, it's not a question you hear every day, but you'd think a professional auto technician would recognize it as a valid question and at least comment on it.

I agree with Farmerwithmutt, when the state government allows/makes it legal to sell/smoke weed then the younger generation (under 30) consider it their "right" to be a pot smoker. But, employers do not want to put up with the lost work time, stoned employees and so on. And.....The pool of applicants is reduced because of this and lets not talk about the alcohol problems, another can of worms. At where I work all the guys under 30 have minimal skills. And all of the under 30 guys smoke weed, and drink like fish.

I think some of the problem is the unbalance in our society. Remember hanging around a repair shop waiting
for an alignment on our company's truck. The owner of the shop was talking with the guy in front of me who
had a Pontiac Trans AM. Seems they were attacking a problem that had been with the car since new. The shop
owner explained factors in the issues he had been having. First was when he bought the car, it was about
the time the owner of the local Pontiac dealer was getting ready to retire, the last 2 or 3 years he ran
the dealer his only interest was to scoop up as much money as he could. Another problem is they were
fixing something that hadn't been done right on the line so you have someone making $18 to $20 dollars on
hour on the line (this was a long time ago) who couldn't/wouldn't do their job and then someone at the
dealer making $7.00 to $8.00 flat rate having to fix it. The flat rate warranty only paid to repair but
wouldn't pay to diagnose. Additionally we have Pontiac (GM) trying to be "thrifty" with the claim, often
screwing over the dealer on the warranty claim. Take the previous example someone cited about a cross-fire
Camaro, it was probably wrong from the factory and GMs answer aided by the dealer was for the owner to
live with it. And there is a good chance the owner went back and bought another GM car. So GM and the
dealer really didn't have any repercussions from not providing the goods & services they sold with the
Camaro. More and more that is changing and that's why we have seen an increase in other non-big three
automobiles here in the USA.

So if you had reasonable intelligence and were looking to start a career and make yourself a living where
would you go? Unskilled at GM for $20 OR Skilled at the local dealer for $8.00 and have to fight to get
that? Business and cars and about anything else has gotten so darn complex it requires different skill
sets to do both well. 40-50 years ago a guy with some mechanical skills could get into the repair business
with a reasonable investment, run the business and fix stuff. As I said before with tax codes and OSHA,
and the EPA it takes one person just to run the business, so we add employees to the mix so now we can add
labor law, benefits, family leave and hiring and firing to the mix, still haven't dealt with the actual
task of fixing cars. The complexity of the cars requires MORE tools and knowledge which equates to more
money. As we talked earlier the manufacturers don't want to pay market value for this service, the dealers
don't want to pay market value for the labor and guess what the customer/owner doesn't want to pay market
value either.

There are some changes occurring in business, some business leaders are focusing more on optimizing their
results and accept that the employees are an integral part of keeping customers. Retaining customers is
often cheaper than trying to get new ones, and once you have a good relationship their might be more
potential for profit. More and more businesses, including big ones are finding out a "take it or leave it"
attitude is basically telling the customer to go somewhere else. Still maybe don't understand the effect
of wages ans quality and so much of our entitlement attitude or Union attitude has separated the
quality/quantity of production from the money earned for producing the good or service.

Bottom line is we are losing a lot of talent because we don't feel we need it anymore, so there isn't a
reward for developing those skills. The said part is that belief might only be partially true, we are
losing some capabilities we'll need and want.

I would think centrifugal force would help as the oil going to the rods is greater than the force on the mains.

I am going to add in with LAA, my kids are 5 and 6, and the school says they are not teaching cursive writing any more. I think this is a joke! Anymore the young mechanics are taught to plug the computer up to the car or truck and now tractor to see what is wrong with it. Gone is the days of using one or more of your senses to detect what is up with it. Just my love hate relationship with technology! Tom

(quoted from post at 19:28:11 08/30/14) I am going to add in with LAA, my kids are 5 and 6, and the school says they are not teaching cursive writing any more. I think this is a joke! Anymore the young mechanics are taught to plug the computer up to the car or truck and now tractor to see what is wrong with it. Gone is the days of using one or more of your senses to detect what is up with it. Just my love hate relationship with technology! Tom

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I think that in today's world of complex technology, a machine or code scanner is a necessity.
My gripe is that people are paying technicians to make repairs by replacing parts that MIGHT BE BAD. If the new part did not correct the problem, customer is charged for it anyway. I talked to a friend just last week, that said he had a bad MAP sensor, TPS, and TWO O2 Sensors all go bad at the same time. His bill was $387.50!! Even having the scanned codes only directs you to probable cause and this can sometimes include many items. Of course sensors can be individually checked but many technicians just replace with new ones and you pay the bill!

I had heard that a while back as well. Some Ive heard, when they graduate can pretty much sign their name and that is it. We were told in vo-tech do you want to be a mechanic that just replaces parts or find out what is wrong with it. We were even taught (if I could remember it now lol) where a problem was determining which side of a set of points was burnt.

No money to be made in making something that will last along time, and is rebuildable. So manufacturers don't do it. They want you to buy a new computer every 3 years, washer and dryer every 6 years, a new car every 7 years, a new refrigerator every 8 years, and so on. No need for skilled repairmen, just salesmen to sale you a new one. Its all part of big buisness. Consumers don't help anything either. They will pay high dollar money to go golfing with their buddies, but want to pay a guy minimum wage to work on the car while they are golfing. Come back next time to pick up the car and its not done, and find a sign that says, Gone Fishing. LOL

I'll add a few thoughts here.....
As to today's "mechanics" - there are very few. Most do not understand basic engine operation. Never saw a set of points, do not understand timing, have NO IDEA how an ignition system works.
But - I have to say - you may have made a big mistake in cleaning your throttle body. Starting in 1992, Ford introduced throttle bodies that were NOT to be cleaned. They used a special coating to seal off the circumference of the throttle plate and a calibrated "bleed hole" in the throttle plate. I have seen more than one throttle body made useless by cleaning. Usual symptoms are idle instability, high idle RPM, and hesitations. Most will display symptoms after cleaning. Some will not.
In most cases, "phantom" lean codes turn out to be vacuum leaks.

(quoted from post at 20:27:08 08/30/14) I'll add a few thoughts here.....
As to today's "mechanics" - there are very few. Most do not understand basic engine operation. Never saw a set of points, do not understand timing, have NO IDEA how an ignition system works.
But - I have to say - [b:d5b367824e]you may have made a big mistake in cleaning your throttle body.[/b:d5b367824e] Starting in 1992, Ford introduced throttle bodies that were NOT to be cleaned. They used a special coating to seal off the circumference of the throttle plate and a calibrated "bleed hole" in the throttle plate. I have seen more than one throttle body made useless by cleaning. Usual symptoms are idle instability, high idle RPM, and hesitations. Most will display symptoms after cleaning. Some will not.
In most cases, "phantom" lean codes turn out to be vacuum leaks.

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Yes, I know exactly what you are talking about. You just have to know how and what you are doing.

The dumbing down of technicians will get worse. Do a Google search for "Audi to use this telepresence robot to fix cars".
Basically, somebody (or something) from halfway around the world will tell the "mechanic" what to replace. Now some might say this is good, but over the last 20 years, good auto parts store countermen have been replaced by people just knowing how to look something up on the computer and it has been a disaster.

You hit the nail on the head, very few upcoming skilled trade people. Lots of reasons. Not in order but a few are, they saw their parents get laid off and said "This is not for me", young people don't like to get dirty, change in culture, young people grew up with computers, we grew up with mechanical things. As someone else said, few apprenticeship programs. This list can go on and on.

We'll be in great shape if the demand for drug addicts , drunks , and lazy people ever ramps up and becomes a viable source of future employment.. I'm sorry to say , but there is a serious lack of young people who actually want to work for a living.. Poor upbringing , coddled , name it what you may, there's a problem.. The other day I heard of an installers van being stolen .. Some of his tools were thrown by the roadside and the van , being a beater wasn't the pride of the fleet.. The cops found the van weeks later in a woods.. Abandoned , and trashed .. The cops said it was stolen and used for a "Meth Lab".. NOW , I'm not saying every youth is a problem.. I'm just saying that there is a problem with some young individuals.. How'd I do ?? Did I stir up a hornets nest ??

Typical V8 needs 10psi per 1,000 rpm. GM World Class technician '05-'11, current owner of an AC Delco PSC. 37 years old.

Having been a fully certified auto mechanic for 27
years I can understand why none of the younger
people want to get into it. The job stinks. To be
any good takes an incredible amount of experience
and for what. For me the back breaking labor
wasn't worth the money as I got older. Almost any
car can't be diagnosed without a computer and
"probing around" can cause more damage then when
it was brought in. I read exposure to MTBE was bad
for your health but I didn't believe it. 6 months
after getting out of the trade, however, and I
felt like a new man health wise.
I can say this; The doctors I go to have more than
10 years of formal education and make considerably
more than the mechanics I take my vehicles to for
warranty work but when it comes to diagnosis they
are correct less times than the wrench turners.

Ahh, the steaming pile known as "Ceasefire Injection".
Thankfully it quickly joined the V8-6-4 and the Cimmeron in
the GM junkyard of forgetfulness. You have to wonder what
genius engineer thought taking a road race manifold that
didn't work well in the 60's and slapping on two TBI's would
be a success. He is probably the dad the the guy who
rehashed the use of plastic check balls in their current 6T
series transmissions.

People are less interested in skilled trades and especially
auto mechanics because they are treated as third class
citizens. Auto mechanics at dealers are looked down upon
by the customers and by their employer. They want you to
work 24/7/365, own $100K in tools, know everything off the
top of their head, be 100% perfect all the time, and do it for
the same pay as the counter person at McDonald's next
door. These are the reasons I got out and started my own
country shop. I am now respected for my abilities and
make what my knowledge and equipment investment is
worth.

Locally, McD's pays over $10 to start, mechanic shops pay $15,
and there are production jobs that start at $20+. Where are you
going to go? I pulled wrenches for a while, got burned out
eventually, and never really progressed that far. Now I do
something that is not near as physically demanding and pays
much better.

As far as computer diagnostics is concerned, I want to meet the
person who can diagnose a common rail diesel engine without a
service tool, and not just be changing parts. With the computer, I
can pull data from the ecm and know what is going on.

When the demand for skilled trades gets high enough there will
be people to fill the positions. Those people are just doing
something that pays better at the moment.

It was a boring time at GM. Somebody high up in marketing probably thought "Crossfire Injection" sounded more dazzlying than "Quadrajet: now more evovoled than ever!"

Planned Obsolescense is the "elephant in the room" problem that no one is talking about, IMO. Huge economic and enviromental consequences with this trend.

Supply and demand. Nobody will pay to go into a trade school if they don't think they'll be able to make a living at it. Meanwhile corporations are outsourcing manufacturing as fast as they can; they figure they can keep their remaining plants operating long enough whith their aging skilled tradesmen so there's no need to bring in apprentices.

(quoted from post at 11:04:32 08/30/14) We should all be concerned about the loss of skilled American workers in this country.
I retired from a large aluminum plant and years ago, they had an apprentice program for skilled labor that was subsidized by the federal government and that was lost. Today there are no apprentice programs in that plant!

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My question would be why was it the Federal Gov'ts (tax payers more accurately) job to pay for an apprenticeship program? Seems to me the aluminum industry should have been footing the bill if they wanted skilled workers. Or the union could have done it. Instead the union and industry depended on someone else to foot the bill. There's problem #1.

In my plant, the last toolmaker apprentice graduated in 1986. They never hired anybody to replace us. In 2010, the plant was closed.

(quoted from post at 13:29:06 08/31/14)

(quoted from post at 11:04:32 08/30/14) We should all be concerned about the loss of skilled American workers in this country.
I retired from a large aluminum plant and years ago, they had an apprentice program for skilled labor that was subsidized by the federal government and that was lost. Today there are no apprentice programs in that plant!

Click to expand...

My question would be why was it the Federal Gov'ts (tax payers more accurately) job to pay for an apprenticeship program? Seems to me the aluminum industry should have been footing the bill if they wanted skilled workers. Or the union could have done it. Instead the union and industry depended on someone else to foot the bill. There's problem #1.

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FYI, look up the meaning of [b:adbe8eb417]subsidized[/b:adbe8eb417]
You might be interested to know that the federal government still has subsidizing programs, just not the same today.
You might also be surprised to know that all employees, both skilled and unskilled, received a TEN week paid vacation after working for five years and it was also subsidized by FG!! They offered this to create replacement workers.
That was stopped and so were the 10 week vacation and the hiring of replacement workers.

(quoted from post at 10:44:09 08/31/14)

(quoted from post at 13:29:06 08/31/14)

(quoted from post at 11:04:32 08/30/14) We should all be concerned about the loss of skilled American workers in this country.
I retired from a large aluminum plant and years ago, they had an apprentice program for skilled labor that was subsidized by the federal government and that was lost. Today there are no apprentice programs in that plant!

Click to expand...

My question would be why was it the Federal Gov'ts (tax payers more accurately) job to pay for an apprenticeship program? Seems to me the aluminum industry should have been footing the bill if they wanted skilled workers. Or the union could have done it. Instead the union and industry depended on someone else to foot the bill. There's problem #1.

Click to expand...

FYI, look up the meaning of [b:1769c4f0ce]subsidized[/b:1769c4f0ce]
You might be interested to know that the federal government still has subsidizing programs, just not the same today.
You might also be surprised to know that all employees, both skilled and unskilled, received a TEN week paid vacation after working for five years and it was also subsidized by FG!! They offered this to create replacement workers.
That was stopped and so were the 10 week vacation and the hiring of replacement workers.

Click to expand...

I understand what the word means. What I don't understand is why you seem to think the tax payers should be funding any of this or any other occupation in private industry.

Served the last of my 8000 hour government sponsored
apprenticeship under president LBJ, saw some real
changes implemented. It was the start of "dumbing
down America" -helped me a lot in being a
farmer/mechanic.