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Can you count on the frequency of power company to be 60HZ?

Geo-TH,In

Geo-TH,In

Well-known Member
The reason I ask is I purchased a cheap digital frequency meter used on generators. It indicates the power company frequency is 60.7 HZ.

I don't think it's a big deal that the meter is .7 hz high.

I always thought you could bank on 60 hz from power company. Am I wrong?
George
 
Presuming your power company is connected to the US grid, line frequency is typically maintained to +/- 0.02 hz. Ie. your meter should indicate between 59.98 and 60.02 hz.

Your reading of 60.7 hz shows an inaccuracy of approximately 1% in your meter - not bad for a consumer-grade unit.
 
Bob M hit the nail on the head. Unless you have your meter sent to a metrology firm for calibration, you are probably looking at a slight inaccuracy in the meter and not a frequency issue with the power company.
 
I want to say I've been told + or - 3% on frequency, but I'm not an electrician or engineer. Hopefully John T will amble by and set us all straight.
 
If there is a calibration screw on the back of the meter, you can adjust to read 60Hz when connected to the power line. You would be closer than it was.
 
No offense, but based on my experience Id trust the Utility much more then your meters accuracy. No machine/system is perfect, but my experience with several different utility companies over many years has shown me they are darn accurate, although I have no detailed specs or history to quote you like Bob M and others below.

Its kinda like the many times over the years I thought I caught the bank in a mistake on my balance, but ya know what, THEY WERE ALWAYS RIGHT grrrrrrr lol

Similar, when I first started picking the Banjo and going to jams I called my son (a professional musician) one day and asked, why is it when Im picking a song the band gets a beat or so ahead of me or they're behind me, he answers THATS BECAUSE THEYRE RIGHT (In time) AND YOUR WRONG A(out of time) HE WAS RIGHT

John T
 
Have a harmonica (reed) type meter taken off a military generator. Whenever I have checked the commercial mains, they have been right on. Suprisingly, my home generators hold pretty consistant frequency as well, after I calibrated them. Guess I might dig out my digital frequency meter and check that way. If your frequency is off a fraction, I doubt if any of your appliances would notice, other than a digital clock. And that would be very minor, as most digital clocks are run from an internal crystal based clock.
 
When I ran PTO operated generator, I used an ordinary mechanical electric clock with a second hand to set RPM, therefore frequency. Plug the clock into the generator, compare the speed of the second hand to the second hand on a quartz watch over several minutes. When they match frequency will be within 1/2%. Cost for equipment is less than $20, even if you have to buy it all.
 
Paul,
I picked up a cheapie digital freq meter for $9. I thought I could use the power company frequency as the standard.

So what if meter reads 60.7, I'll know that 60.7 Hz=60hz, close enought for what I need.

I compared the new freq meter to the frequency that come on my new genny. They were close to each other.

Now that I trust the new meter to be close, I'll use it to set governor on my old genny which doesn't have a meter.

I'm happy with meter. It's not that often I need a frequency.

I thought about using a 120v analog clock, but haven't seen one in decades.

George
 
It will be at or around 60HZ, with an average at that value. The power companies are working to loosen that standard up.
 
The long-term accuracy of the grid frequency is very high. You'll remember the old ac clocks that used a synchronous motor would almost always keep perfect time. Over the short term you'll see some variation, but nothing like the one percent error your meter is showing.

Back in 2011, the power companies experimented with letting the frequency drift a bit and not correcting it over the long term. I googled and found a few old articles about the experiment, but nothing about the RESULTS. So I don't know if they decided go back to the old rigorous regulation or to allow frequency variation to continue.

I think the real problem with your meter is noise. It's not easy to make a cheap, accurate, broad-band frequency meter. (If you try comparing different cheap guitar tuners, you'll quickly find they are not at all the same.) A little noise is going to introduce some extra zero crossings that will really trash the measurement. You might try adding a low-pass RC filter to your meter and see if that improves the measurement. Also, is there a spec for your meter's accuracy? If the manufacturer doesn't publish the accuracy, it's fair to assume that one percent is about all you'll get.
 
howdy1960,
When I need something I use advance search on ebay, buy it now, list from lowest to highest price.

My meter was designed to fit in a rectangular hole like in a genny.

I look at it this way, so what if it read 60.7 hz when connected to 60hz. I now have a way to compare my generators frequency.


I purchased a energy, power, phase angle, frequency, amp, meter and it didn't matter where I connected it, meter always showed 60 hz. So I knew I couldn't trust that meter.
George
digital frequency meter.
 
Don't count on the voltage being correct either !

One night I woke up and the night light was dim fridge sounded weird so I stuck a volt meter in an outlet and only IIRC had 60 volts. I called and reported it.
 

The whole North American electrical grid is tied together. He frequency is 60Hz. No more, no less. We synced the generators to the grid and spun the turbines at 1800rpm
 
Thanks George. I believe that in knowing the meter shows 60.7 Hz from power company and timing genny to that same Hz would result in a genny giving the results that we all need to not burn our Hz dependant equipment up. I know I can live with compansating the differance.
 
No, the power companies are regulated by the government and are one of the biggest political contributors to political campaigns. When I lived in Wisconsin and cared for the county's courthouse we were about 4 blocks from a Hydro-electric dam (by the way Hydro-electric is not renewable or "green" energy, my guess is the hydro electric folks didn't contribute enough to Barry & the boyz). We could tell every time they gave a tour of the dam & power plant 'cause they'd show how they can speed up and slow down the wheel. This did bad things to the idea of 60 cycle power and upset a lot of the solid state devices in the data center.
 
How do they do that, keep them synced?

I would expect anyone making power with wind and
solar and putting it on the grid would have to be
synced too.

Many years ago I worked at Bethleham steel Burns
harbor, we made our own power. It was tied to the
grid. The power station had a frequency counter.
If I recall correctly, around 2 am, they would
adjust generators to get the number of cycles
generated by NIPSC. But that doesn't make sence.
If one generator is 180 out of phase, wouldn't
that cancel out the voltage? They would have to be
synced 24/7

I thought at one time canada was 50hz and a
totally different voltage than our common 110v,
220v, 440v. Of course operating on different
voltage would be no issue, use a different
transformer. So what you are saying, canada
produces 60 hz.

I could see a real big disaster is some Bubba fead
power from a genny to the grid.

Didn't Thomas Edison have that problem, he got his
generators synced sparks went flying?
 
Yea, me too. Just use power company as a standard 60 hz. Just compensate, not really rocket science.
 
When two AC generators are coupled together, they WILL BE in sync. And if they're out of phase before they're coupled, they'll be pulled into phase the instant they're coupled, even if the motor mounts have to break to make it happen.
 
If you don't understand the source of the error, then you can't assume that 60.7 hertz indicates 60 hertz for both grid and generator power. What you have is an inaccurate device which can't be trusted.
 
MarkB_MI,
I'll take your work on that, because I really don't think I'll ever try it.

Why? I know that motors when the power is removed acts like generators. That's happens with hybrid cars, regrenative braking.

I've seen what happens when you take two signal generators, put the display on a dual trace scope get the frequencys close, and add the signals together. Kind of neat seeing signals add and subtract as they go in and out of phase.

Still don't understand what happening with gennys syncing.
george
 
You have a truncation error. If you takes a piece of black eltrickle tape and places it over the ".7" the meter will read "60"; dead nuts accuright.

BTW - I always look forward to reading about your adventures!
 
(quoted from post at 16:45:04 08/22/14) How do they do that, keep them synced?

I would expect anyone making power with wind and
solar and putting it on the grid would have to be
synced too.

Many years ago I worked at Bethleham steel Burns
harbor, we made our own power. It was tied to the
grid. The power station had a frequency counter.
If I recall correctly, around 2 am, they would
adjust generators to get the number of cycles
generated by NIPSC. But that doesn't make sence.
If one generator is 180 out of phase, wouldn't
that cancel out the voltage? They would have to be
synced 24/7

I thought at one time canada was 50hz and a
totally different voltage than our common 110v,
220v, 440v. Of course operating on different
voltage would be no issue, use a different
transformer. So what you are saying, canada
produces 60 hz.

I could see a real big disaster is some Bubba fead
power from a genny to the grid.

Didn't Thomas Edison have that problem, he got his
generators synced sparks went flying?
Click to expand...

If two generator are connected 180 degrees out of phase. That will be at a minimum a bad sound and opened protective devices. Twisted off shafts, stator windings shifted and contactor/circuit breaker explosions possible.
Canada way back when just like every other country experimented with 25, 33-1/3, 40,50 & 60 cycle power in the late 1800's and early 1900's.
Early in the 1900's the standard was 25 cycle as most of Ontario's and other provinces power was generated by Hydro Electric. By 1955-1957 the standard was 60Hz across all of Canada. With a few odd pockets of 25Hz. Until approx 10yrs ago Beck 1 at Niagara. They still made 25Hz to supply the Hamilton Steel mill's motor generator sets to run the DC motors on the rolling mills to hot forge steel to shape.
Voltages are 120/240 single phase. 120/208 and 347/600 three phase. No weird *ss tapped or corner ground Delta systems.
There are a few commercial buildings In Toronto etc built in the late 1960's with European 240/416 voltage but North American 60Hz.
The idea was to have just one simplified electrical service in the building. 240V for lights and all office equipment like in Europe. 416V for all three phase motors like Europe.
 
Thanks,
I think the US was on one time 25 hz.

You got some weird 3 phase voltages.

If I recall, the 3 phase motors I worked on 40
years ago could wire them either 220 or 440. Like
some of our single phase motors are 110 or 220.
 
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