Any private pilots here?

I went to a fly-in at the local small town airport today. I've always had a liking for flying, I had several rides in a 4 seater Piper a few years ago. I've attended many airshows before but todays show seemed different. Probably because I realized that I finally could afford a plane if that's what really want to do. Now, I'm struggling with the justification of it all being that I can't make any practical use of a plane, it would be purely recreational and maybe a bit of therapy as I get up there away from the hustle and bustle of things. I looked at the website of a local flight training school at the airport, they say to budget $10,000 to get your license. Wow, that's alot of money to put into a "hobby". Then to buy a plane after that yet, another $25,000+. Renting a plane is an option that I would likely start out with. I think I may see if the flight instructor would take me up for a hour or so to allow me to get a feel of flying and then go from there.

Do those of you that fly get the use of your license and/or plane that you thought you would?

How do you justify the expense of it all? A pilot I talked to today said it costs him $4,000 a year just to own the plane without any airtime (annual inspection, Insurance, hanger rental, etc)

Any website that you would recommend to a beginner flight student? or a flight trainer in Central MN?

Check with Saint Cloud State...they have (had) some course connection with the regional airport in St. Cloud. Maybe Jan Nicholson could chime in with details. He teaches at either State or Tech.

You don't have to sign up for the whole private pilot course ahead of time. Find you an instructor and airplane, preferably at a small airport, and get a few hours of dual instruction. Do not make a decision as to whether or not you like it based on an 'introductory flight'. All you need for the first few hours is a pilot logbook. Try to find an instructor whose personality meshes with yours.

You can never justify the cost of aviation, unless you use it for business, but if it turns out to be something that you really enjoy and can afford, that can be justification enough.

Also, it is said that if it flies, floats or some other thing, it is cheaper to rent.

I have owned a small plane for 35 years. I try not to put a pencil to it very often!

Garry

Check to see if there are any courses at community colleges. May be far cheaper than private schools. You may find a group that owns an aircraft on shares - or wants to share an aircraft. Obviously if you do this, you will have to share when others aren't using it, but spreads costs.

Or you could do is what my brother-in-law is doing, building his own. He chose a KitFox, and is well on the way to having it airworthy after only a year on concentrated work.

Several things to think about:

1) You will not get much of a plane for $25K. fifty year old Piper Cubs bring $50K. A newer Piper Super Cub will bring in the $100-150K. So your going to be looking at more investment than $25K

2) A better way might be to join an air club. You jointly rent/lease a plane for the whole group. Then you take turns flying it. Kind of like a time share vacation home. You split the annual cost/upkeep over a group of people.

3) The operating cost of a plane are much different than a car/truck. Your fuel is more costly. You can't do your own repairs unless your certified to do so with the FAA.

AN example of this is a friend has a Bell helicopter. He does crop spraying. He has to have the engine rebuilt every 250 or 500 hours. I don't remember which but he has to have it done or he is grounded.

Some of this maybe dated so. Meaning it might cost even more now. LOL I looked hard at it 4-5 years ago. I decided that I could just hire a plane a few times each year for way less than what it costs to own/fly one.

I"m not a pilot but both of sons-in-law are. One of the things to consider is a "light sport" liscense.It is much much easier to be liscensed. There are restrictions on when you can fly (daytime only I believe) but for recreational use it really makes sense. And....it"s much much cheaper to get your ticket. Look into it.

My oldest daughter and my father both hold private pilot licenses.I soloed at age 16 and took my written but never got to take my check ride due to not being able to renew an eyesight waiver. My wife puts up with my antique tractor addictions as a trade-off for me not to fly as my vision got much better with age and for some reason and I'm sure I could pass the eye exam now.

You can get a sport license now days, too. Just visit your local airport and there will be many hanger bums to help you along.You can join a flying club rather than by an airplane. The EAA is an excellent group of people and will make certain that you have a lifelong addiction to Avgas.

Google trade a plane magazine. Many for sale ads in it I see some Piper Cherokees for sale. Watch the engine hours and corrosion.

No real answer here but I did it and am very glad I did. Got my private ticket and then went and got the tail wheel endorsement because I thought I wanted a J-3. I ended up with a 1950 Pacer. Owned it for 7 years (2 of those with a partner)
We sold the plane 3 years ago and I still miss it. In my case I saved the money for the lessons and plane before I started. YES, a lot of money but it was something I wanted all my life and saving the monies beforehand made it so there was minimum financial burden.
I Flew about 125 hrs per year I think that was a minimum to keep me shiny side up landing with crosswinds in a tailwheel airplane.
I was also fortunate to hangar my airplane on a field with a lot of rag wing aircraft and a maintenance facility that was familiar with the older aircraft. They also allowed owner assisted annuals which taught me a lot about the plane and also saved a little money.
I would suggest that you interview/fly with a few instructors before deciding who to go with. Many instructors are building hours to advance their certification and are just puttin in time! Some are good teachers. Look for one that is compatible with you.
If you have not already done so you can go to EAA.org and get lots of info.
Hope this helps. Be safe and have fun!
Andy

I would like to get back into flying; the expense was a problem most of my life, now it's more a matter of time rather than money.

Since you're in Minnesota, you should plan a trip to Oshkosh next year. (You just missed the 2014 fly-in.) That will give you a better idea of the range of your options. If you don't mind going low and slow, Light Sport aircraft are an economical option. On the other hand, there are some very fast experimental (homebuilt) aircraft that will blow the doors off most factory-built planes yet are relatively cheap to operate. The used amateur-built aircraft market is full of nice planes you can buy for less than it would cost to build from scratch.

You won't get an instructor to take you up for free, but most flight schools offer an introductory half-hour lesson for about what it costs them in fuel. And it counts against your dual instruction requirement.

AOPA did a cost evaluation a year or so ago on the cost benefit to buying rather than renting for Private Pilot instruction. The case they evaluated had the pilot come out slightly ahead by purchasing a C-152. He bought the plane, then sold it when he completed his training and he came out slightly ahead of rental prices. I think it could go either way depending on the situation, but these days it is expensive any way you go. If the right plane could be found, I would probably buy one for my training unless there was a good flight school nearby.
There are ways to prepare ahead of time and save on costs such as on-line training and flight simulators. They can go a long way in preparing you so that your time in the air is used more efficiently. Check out AOPA website, they have lots of info for prospective pilots.

Join CAP, Civil Air Patrol, depending on the squadron you can get free air time. Most often there will be some pilot that holds a training cert.

You will volunteer and help while also making your dreams come to fruition.

CMD

Another way you can go is to get your gliders lic and look into gyro copters. This is the route I hope to go some day.

Having gone from where you are to airliners I will throw in my 2 cents.

First of all no way to "justify" owning the thing. You just have one for fun. After all, it's only money! And we print more and more every day.

It is completely true that you will have a baseline cost even if you don't fly. What will really burn you is if something big breaks or an AD comes out. Consider going "halves" if you know someone else who is in your same situation. Go to the local airport on the weekend and talk to other GA owners. People love to talk about their planes and will be able to tell you what it's costing them in fixed and variable costs.

Two ways to go on school: Part 141 or Part 61. Part 61 is you go to your local airport and scare up an instructor. Part 141 is a school with a curriculum that is blessed by the FAA. The FAA's blessing allows students ( in theory) to get their ratings with fewer flight hours. The reality is that it will be about the same either way.

Any of them should have an "Introductory flight" of about a half hour or so. You should get to handle the controls and so on. If not they're a bunch of clowns.

Beware of any instructor or school who is bragging or making noise about how they can train you in less hours than the "other guy"!!!

You want an instructor who will train you until you are _proficient_ so you won't go out and kill yourself. Training is not the place to save money.

Flight instruction is one on one so if you it turns out that you don't mesh with the first one you try by all means switch to another instructor. You want to minimize stress and maximize your learning per dollar.

Don't be afraid to go with the instructor fresh out of school. They've just gone through the whole wringer and all the knowledge is fresh on their mind. One with a year under their belt and a couple of sign offs should be ok to try.

10K is not out of line start to finish. 50 to 60 flight hours is about average for a private license. That's total so some of that will be solo time. Take that times whatever the rental cost of the plane and roughly 40 hours of instruction and prep.

As mentioned, the "light sport" might be a good fit for you and possibly cheaper. That came out after I was done with instructing. Less requirements but a few restrictions.

I'm partial to Cessna. I like the visibility of the high wing, the shade you get sometimes and the ventilation (you can open the windows on a hot day). Also because a stabilator is a crude, sloppy device.

Keep in mind that the simpler the airplane the cheaper. Less parts = less stuff to break.

Flying can be very relaxing and you can actually do some traveling with it. Hey, it's not like you're buying a boat or a horse. An airplane will hold its value.

Lots of good info given. I think there is no way to justify the cost on a purely economic basis. However, it is priceless to see the look on my grandson's face when I let him take the control yoke and fly the plane. Also, I love being able to drive my car right up to the plane, load my own luggage, and not have to take my shoes off and empty my pockets so somebody can grope me or expose me to xrays. How much is that worth in dollars? I am partners in a Piper Dakota and also built a plane in 1991. Homebuilding saves a bunch of money because the builder can apply for a Repairman's certificate and then is authorized to perform any and all maintainence on the aircraft.

Reading the posts here; there are some things I agree with and some I don"t. I"ve been a private pilot for about 25 years and my wife for about 10. Used to own 2 airplanes, am now down to one but looking for a second again. Ironic you should be questioning cost on this site. I thought airplanes were expensive until I bought a backhoe. They are no more expensive than a mid-life crisis sports car. You can buy a lot of airplane (very subjective) for under (or even half) of 25k, particularly now since its a buyers market. Annual inspection cost largely depends on what part of the country you live in (example; the cost me about 8 times more on the east coast then in the mid west for the same plane). Insurance is about the same as a high end car. Storage at an airport again depends on where you live.
From my experience (and getting my wife trained) the bigger expense is aircraft rental and availability. That"s why I bought one for my wife to train on, intending to sell it afterward but wound up keeping it for about 6 years. We always look for the oldest instructor. They usually train because they want to not because they need a living or are just building time for the airlines. Biggest mistake students make is not realizing who is the employer and employee in a student instructor relationship. If you"re not happy or think you may not be learning fast enough get another. Fly at least twice a week. Once every 2 or 3 weeks you"ll have to re-learn too much stuff. Be advised it can be addicting; I started with a small plane and now I own a house-hangar and part of an airport.

Jim

I have spent a little bit looking at options, I think the powered parachute looks like it could suit me well. I looks like a death trap, but I don't think you could beat the view. I kinda like the low and slow that go with these powered parachutes, plus I could keep it right out at the farm which would lead to it being used more I'm sure, though I am probably limited to summer time use only. Maybe not?? I've still got alot to figure out, but still very interested in getting up into the air.

First thing I would ask. Do you really want to fly. Friend of mine wanted to fly and money was not a problem.Took the classes,bought a 172. Had it for three years and I think he used it four times. Sold it.Make sure it is something you really want to do.

Powered parachutes are a great way to enjoy low and slow flying. Never flew one but know several local guys who do. The biggest safety factor is the wind. They only fly on relatively calm days.

I have a pilots license but I quit flying because of the cost. I have owned four different planes at various times. The cost of ownership is high. Their are yearly inspections and other maintenance costs(tires, instrument repair tie down or hanger rent,) Gasoline and insurance are high. Then there is the part of practicability. Dont fool yourself into thinking about family trips unless you have unlimited time to wait out weather ,paying motel and car rental and tie down fees .
Then there is the other factor of expertise. It is my humble opinion that to remain proficient you must accumulate 60 hours a year Three TO's and landings are not enough to remain proficient as some believe.
The final factor is weather. I have lost two friends who thought they were better that others by flying into storms. Both were picked up in baskets in fields. Small aircraft are not designed for the stress loads a storm can produce. Even Scott Crossfield the famoued test pilot of latter days died in a small plane in Northern Georgia as he flew though a storm and was torn to pieces. Reminds me of and old saying"the only weather you can control is the weather you take off in.
F;lying is fun as gives a great satifaction but is nnot for everyone. Take a few hours of instruction (roughly around $135 and our around here ad see. And always remember, there is nothing more useless than airspace above you and runway behind you.

Neighbor got his license, put in a grass landing strip, hangar and bought a plane. I think he only flew it twice in 2 years, so his wife made him get rid of it as he wasn't using it enough to stay proficient.

Went with a dealer to a ranch in MT; rancher's wife insisted that he get rid of his Cessna 180 tail dragger because he didn't fly it enough to be safe. That plane had very few hours; he traded it in on a new combine. Dealer flew the plane back to home base; his brother had the plane sold before he landed.

funny thing I did with my son when he was 9. He got addicted to "flight simulator" on my computer. he really loved it, and was learning a lot about flying.

One day I decided to blow his mind - I took him down to TF Green airport in RI, paid for a lesson, and after signing our lives away, he was flying for real.

He was absolutely silent the whole time. I was a little hesitant because I didn't know if I was traumatizing him, or what.

It was a cessna 172 - four seater, so I got to watch him from the back seat. I was impressed. He was confident, super serious, and looked like he belonged in that seat. I even noticed he kept looking left and right to watch his wingtips like he learned on the computer - it was really cool.

We landed, got in the truck, drove away. He still hadn't said a word to me. Totally silent. Not a peep.

15 minutes into the ride home, I heard his voice from the backseat:

"dad, that was the coolest thing I've ever done in my entire life. Thank you".

I did get some of it captured on video. RI is a beautiful place to fly out of. I think that lesson cost me about $75 - best 75 I ever spent.

As for your wanting to fly - I say start taking the lessons. By the time you get your license, you'll know if it's something you want to invest more into.

If not - so what? Money spent achieving something like that is money well spent. You'll have fun pursuing it.
My son flying

Small world. The airport pictured looks to be KMVN? I was the line chief there before going into the Navy in 1969.

I owned/flew a Grob G102 fully aerobatic sailplane. I have also flown 12 other types of aircraft. Fly for the pure joy of it.

Yes,he does look very confident.Look at his hand on the yoke-relaxed,he dosen't have adeath grip on it.No way of knowing for sure but if he decides to make flying his lifes work I'd bet he'd be real good at it.I'm surprised he was put in the left seat though.Did the instructer let him shoot the approach ?

I"ve owned two airplanes, a Cessna 150 and a 172. The 172 had the Lycoming IO 360 engine with a Stoll kit. That thing "wanted" to fly! It was expensive...pure and simple. I wanted to learn how to fly "my own" airplane. I didn't like the idea of always having to go out and rent a plane each time I needed to go somewhere. Plus, I knew I'd take care of my own plane whereas I wasn't sure about what the "other guy" had done (or not done) to the plane prior to me getting in it. 'Same way with multiple ownership. If you truly trust your life with the other owners, then go for it. Me....no way. It was mentioned that you should be prepared to "wait" while flying due to weather. THat is SO true! There is a saying, "Don't go by air unless you have time to spare". I got my private license, then my IFR rating, then my commercial license and then "almost" completed my instructors license. I decided I didn't need the stress of taking some other "nut job" up in an airplane. Flying requires your absolute attention at all times. For me, it was never stress free, never truly relaxing. You have to be on your toes constantly. I flew for about 10 years and then sold both planes about 8 years ago. I haven't flown since and really don't miss it. I think the "bragging rights" now are enough to satisfy me. I did accomplish one primary goal for myself. I was "truly" scared to death of flying prior to learning how to do it. I got over that fear. To me, that's a major accomplishment.

I got my private pilots license in the late '80s. Flew less than 10 hours afterwards and haven't been up since the early '90s. I found it expensive and actually were was I going to go? And when I got there, there was an airport. I'd need to rent a car or something--surely I didn't go to see a pilots lounge of another airport. Is it fun, yes and no. Driving is fun and not so fun too. And at 25 cents a mile in my pickup kinda expensive too.

I guess what I'm saying is I have had many times in the last few years I've yearned to start up a Cessna, feel that wobbly feeling of it taxing steering with my feet, throttle up and the climb out is a wonderful feeling. Flying a bit and seeing the scenery is nice for a bit. Landing is fun too as a kinda skilled art.

But while up you can't swoop across the tree tops or dash across urban places, you have to see the land from normally 1,000 or 2,000 AGL (technically I believe you can get buy with 500 from people and property but try proving that when someone calls in your tail numbers). At 2,000 AGL the scenery looks pretty much the same for hours around here at 100 knots.

So, I guess what I'm saying is if your like me you might love learning to fly. Flying with an instructor you like, learning the maneuvers etc. When you get your license it's fun to take a few people up. But then fun diminished and the expense set in. I had to maintain currency requirements, certain number of night landings, biannual flight reviews, medicals, etc. But where was I to go? In planning a trip unless the point was to fly--I found it easier and quicker and more comfortable (plane is noisy, tight and an oven on the ground in the summer) from house to destination to drive not to mention a hell of a lot cheaper! Things get worse if you don't have a small airport near you where you can rent the plane. Your paying per hr while you taxi and wait your turn to takeoff and then deal with departure etc at big airports. They'll rout you all over creation when you want to land so the big boys aren't inconvenienced.

Side note: One of my special moments was taxing to the end of the runway for takeoff at a big airport and hearing ground control tell a big airliner to exit at taxiway Bravo and hold on the Cessna approaching from the left. Those taxiways are so big my instructor told me once to slow down once--your almost flying--it felt like I was crawling.

I never got instrument rated as it took a lot more hours and they aren't fun hours as you spend them wearing a hood that only allows you to see the instrument panel. Without the instrument rating, using a plane to travel means your dependent on good weather further complicating your itinerary.

Twin engine rating require time in aircraft that back then were $2 a minute engine running time. Complex aircraft, those with adjustable pitch props and retractable gear likewise meant more time in high dollar aircraft.

I did really want to fly a helicopter and actually took a 30 minute lesson including some practice hovering but talk about expensive and potentially useless (except fun)...

Anyway, I always figured I'd fly again but as costs have soared far faster than I expected I now wonder if I ever will. My final hope is perhaps in the future I'll get a 2 person ultralight and maybe get away trailering it somewhere scenic and buzzing the tree tops a bit like the video I linked to.
Treetop flyer

Yessir, Mt Vernon, IL. Good eye. I love that place. They have free camping for tents plus several free hookups for RV's. Great staff and friendly airport commission.

Got ticket in 74, same day my farm store was robbed. Used in business. Was cost efficient over 200 miles from office. Cannot pass physical for last 20 years.

One more note. Even if your family supports you learning to fly, don't count on finding a family member or buddy that'll actually enjoy flying with you. As we all know how to drive and do so almost daily most of us can ride with other people but I've found family and friends can get very freaked out when flying with you--constantly questing what you are doing and nervous even in the most routine, calm situations.

yeah, the instructor talked him in pretty close to
landing. At least what I'd call a comfortable
closeness for a 9 year old.

I was proud of him. It was a simple first time
lesson - but he really took it very seriously and
he remained laser focused. Whatever the
instructor asked him to do he did.

I think I was more nervous than he was!

You might consider one of those planes that converts to a car. I saw one go through the Tim Horton's drive thru here in town a couple of weeks ago. It caught me of gaurd, enough that I didn't realize what I was looking at until it was to late to get a good look at it. I think they are around $100,000

Very good advice here. May I suggest the Flying club possibility. I was in a club in 69'. Didn't finish my license, transferred, Germany , Vietnam and yes there was a Flyinmg Club in Germany but too far and Vietnam, no club. But it kept the cost down to reasonable. The club owned two Cessna 150's and you could rent from the FBO , when qualified for something bigger.

I took my stage 3 check ride when living in the mountains, left there and have not flown since. I would not pass medical now, so no need to think about it.

GO FOR IT!!

At least give it a try. You will have a good experience few people have even if for only a few hours.

Some of the posts have good points:

- Look for and older instructor and talk to his/her students if - possible

- Join EAA (Experimental Aircraft Assoc)

- Look for a flying club. Often may have 5 or more people, and some of the members never fly, but still pay their share of the fixed costs

- What do you weigh? If you are slim in trim, a C-150/152 will work. If you are more 'generously' sized, a C-172 or one of the low wing Pipers.

- If there is an active airport nearby, check it out and talk to whoever will listen. And listen to what they say.

- I figure fixed costs if you are owning your own plane, $100/month each for hangar, annual inspection, ins/taxes/registration. So $300/month fixed. Running costs, rough estimate of 3 or 4 times cost for fuel per hour to allow for maintaince and build up a reserve for OH or repairs.

- Lots of people build their own. If you are handy and like building, a very good option, but...you will not be flying while building.

- If you decide to buy - GET THE AIRPLANE INSPECTED FIRST. This could save you a TON of money. I had a friend looking at a plane, everything looked great, but the inspection turned up corrossion. $$$$$$$$$ to fix. He found a different plane, a real creampuff.

- One final point. If you are buying GPS's, fancy instruments, a leather jacket, or whatever. That is money that could be better used to buy fuel. A $250 leather flight jacket = 50 gal or fuel. 10 or more hours of flying.

Best of luck, and let us know how it turns out.