More to organic farming than I thought?

tomstractorsandtoys

Well-known Member
First I have nothing against organic farming as they must be better managers than me to make it work.This post is not trying to start a fight just a thought as was mowing hay this evening.We planned to put in a new waterway this spring but got behind and did not get it seeded.I planted the corn and bean strips strait thru without raising the planter and when I sprayed I stopped the sprayer several feet on each side of where I wanted making a skip about 25 ft. wide that I hoped to seed.Corn went in May 19 and beans May 26.The beans had a preemergence spray + roundup and the corn was sprayed when about 4-6 inches with Hornet,Harness,atrizine,banvel and crop oil(It was a very hot load but the feild was conventional corn and the weeds were coming)Driving past this feild tonight you can see a huge difference in the corn and the beans in the unplanted waterway.The corn is taller with wider leaves and the beans are much bigger.Do I have a point? I am not sure just something I noticed while on the tractor.Without cultivation the end result might be nothing but weeds.I am not ready to stop spraying but maybe organic farmers have a few more benifits than I thought. Tom
 
the thing to remember is alot of the chemicals may not kill the crop but they will damage or slow the growth of the crop. As you stated, iin the end it will get you better yield mainly due to the reduced/eliminated competition from the weeds.
 
When we spray at planting we leave out the Banvel and crop oil.I am not a fan of a two pass system and will often cultivate rather than respray.We split apply our N so a pass with a cultivater helps to work that in as well.On our no-till we use a stablizer on our late applied urea.
 
Our garden is mostly organic by default (yes, _mostly_)... But we're out there constantly weeding it by hand to keep it that way. Last year the fox tail got ahead of us and completely swamped out our pumpkin crop. Only the cucumbers and sunflowers were able to overcome it.
 
My father-in-law is an organic farmer. He doesn't like it but I tell him he is raping his land for a food label. First he makes several tillage passes, then rotary hoes, cultivates several times, flames, sprays "organic" chemicals, yes he has a big green self propelled sprayer and makes many passes with it. He has a large crew of illegals hoeing all summer and probably many more steps in between I'm missing all so he can sell his crops as healthy "organically" produced. In the end he gets about half the yeild I do, loses tons of soil with every rain, gets 2X the price I do for my crops and runs around bragging how green he is. To each their own I guess.
 
I hoe all my vine crops by hand when they are in the 3-4 leaf stage, then spray Dacthal herbicide. It is labeled for use in all garden vegetables, and ornamental use as well. No more weeding or weed problems for the rest of the year.

Getting kinda hard to find.

Gene
 
OK, I'm going to tell you that I'm against using chemicals unless really needed. No, I'm not organic. But I don't trust the chemical companies to produce a safe product. They have a very poor tract record (you can research that yourselves on the internet). And most often you don't know it's unsafe till your kids or grandkids have cancer 10 or 20 years later. And if you are trusting them you are betting the lives of your children or grandchildren on that trust. I'm not willing to endanger my kids/grandkids over a few bucks. That's the same type of greed many of you accuse corporations of having. So that makes you no better than them.

Rick
 
Those of us who grew up without the modern techniques we have now days know what a pain in the azz it was and wouldn't go back to working like that if our lives depended on it.
 
I never spray any herbicide and have very few weeds in crops, corn especically is easy to keep weed free the first thing is to get the soil balanced.Weeds are mostly the result of poor nutrient/mineral balance.Before I plant I like to disk at least twice about a week apart then I plant immediatley after disking the 2nd time.First cultivation I turn the disk hillers to throw the dirt away from the plants so I can get very close, 2nd
cultivation when the plants are about 5 or 6 inches tall I turn the disk hillers in to throw dirt between the standing plants and this covers up most of the weeds plus hills the corn up.Its more labor instensive than chemicals and one person wouldn't be able to grow hundreds of acres by themselves and that'd be a good thing as farms have gotten way too large in a lot of places.If
we quit burning up corn and selling it to feed Chinese slave labor we'd need to grow far less of it anyway.
 
When I see my neighbor spray his GMO Roundup ready soybeans/corn, it's not the GMO's that concern me. It's the fact that the soybeans have been sprayed with a chemical that is taken up through the root system that takes care of the weeds. Ok, works good, but bear in mind that chemical has also been taken up in the soybean/corn plant also.
Food for thought.....
 
I understand your point, but your description is very wrong....

Glyphosate spray is taken in through green leafy surfaces, not through the root.

I understand it is 'the same difference' and does not change your view of the process.

But it does help, in these discussions, to get the facts straight.

The roundup enters through green leafy surfaces, circulates down to the roots, and kills the whole plant.

Glyphosate tolerant plants are able to process the roundup into simple waste products rather than having it harm the plant.

Again I get your point, and not trying to argue against that. Only just, if you don't understand the process to begin with, it is difficult to take your thoughts as seriously......

Myself, I wonder more about some of the older sprays, that burn down the green plant without killing the root very much, those chemicals tend to be around longer, more free floating.... Roundup seems to be a bit less of an issue in this way? But that is just my opinion, no more or less valuable than yours.

Paul
 
The difference being that yours isn't opinion. You stated the actual facts. Problem is,they don't want to hear it. You're talking religion to them.
 
(quoted from post at 06:39:07 06/12/14) The difference being that yours isn't opinion. You stated the actual facts. Problem is,they don't want to hear it. You're talking religion to them.

No one is talking religion. Claiming that there is no run off or mist in the air or anything else, even with roundup is nonsense. If you can smell it it's in the air. Air that you breath. The spray that doesn't hit a plant is on the ground. It's gotta go somewhere. When it rains it washes away or it evaporates into the air. NO MATTER WHAT THE CHEMICAL COMPANY CLAIMS. remember they ain't making that stuff for the good of mankind. They are doing it to make a PFOFIT. They have made a lot of claims over the years and have been proven wrong time and time again. This is a simple case of not trusting the companies. It's amazing to me how many famers I know who do use chemicals who have themselves or their loved ones, diagnosed with cancer. The 2 common things with all of the is they farm and use chemicals. Yet people, users, who don't hold a degree in chemical engineering, keep claiming they are safe. Because they want to believe it all over PROFIT. That's pretty mercenary when you put money up over your families health and very lives. Advocating chemicals like you do is every bit as much as a religion as the organic guys.

Rick
 
My guess would be it's because you did not totally annihilate all the soil organisms with your spray in the waterways and the soil life remaining there is breaking down and effectively releasing soil nutrients for the plants to use. Granted, that would be all plants, weeds included. Also, the Ph is probably more likely favorable in the waterways if they were sod, and as another reader posted, there is probably more moisture available there as well.
 
For whatever its worth, I have heard from a couple different old timers that the weeds were not as bad in their day as they have gotten to be now. Wonder why ?
 
I have rarely sprayed corn in several years, I follow corn with ryegrass and crimson each year and graze the field heavily before planting corn in the spring, no till the corn with starter fertilizer and let it come on, by the time the ryegrass and clover quit growing due to hot days the corn is a couple feet tall and making a canopy, when the ryegrass and clover browns over fertilize again and forget about it. It probably takes a few extra pounds of fertilizer but I get it all back in beef so it does not matter. I live where corn is planted no later than the 2nd week of March most years and the ryegrass is toast by mid May.
 
All of our tools have risks and balances with them.

A hand saw is safer than a table saw with the guard removed,
but a whole lot of folk have a guard less table saw in their
garage.

A row cultivator and a sprayer full of 24D or Roundup are both
tools, and both have risks.

We need to be sure we are clear on understanding the relative
risks vs rewards.

One of the worst things used on my farm, looking back, was
the row crop cultivator. On these hills and fine clay, we would
cultivate 3-4 times a year, generally after it dried out every
rain.

Along came the next rain, and would wash away that 1-2
inches of soil down each row.

Come cultivate again, and repeat the washing.

I don't mind plowing my ground in the fall with a moldboard
plow; it doesn't wash the clods very much at all, over winter it
freezes under the snow.

But jeez, the soil that moved from the frequent cultivation a.
That sure was damaging.

Now, which tool is worse - the cultivator, or the sprayer?

I donno, really.

We do have a whole lot of research on the herbicides, and the
ones used seem pretty safe. Been used over 25 years, some
over 50 years, and the dangers seem fairly low - safer than
that table saw without a guard anyhow!

Doesn't mean it has no risk at all.

But we do need to look at the risks, and understand how and
what we are comparing.

I never met my aunt, she died of stomach cancer in the 1940s.
Was not that old, had a under 10 year old kid. No herbicides
were used by my moms grandparents. Don't know that any
was actually available back then.... So, if antidotal evidence is
allowed, as you told us - then how do you explain my aunt's
cancer? Was pretty devastating, my mom would talk about it a
lot.

I do believe big business is motivated by profit.

I also think Whole Foods, as well as the organic dairy 10 miles
from me with a couple cows are also motivated by profit. That
sorta all washes even out.....

So we need to listen to both sides, understand how things are
really done, and then follow a bit of common sense.

And realize all our tools have some risk and danger, but also
have some benefits.

Then find our way from there.

Oh, when I switched to a narrow row planter last year, I bought
some good old row crop cultivators from a relative to match.
Someday I might want to cultivate some crops too especially
when they are a little bigger, not just spray. Like I say, we need
to look at all the tools, and evaluate what works best. I'm not
really sold on one way or the other as the only way.

I don't think Roundup is absorbed through the roots.

I don't think noticing 20-100 cancer cases in a totally
uncontrolled, unstudied area really proves anything. How
many of then were smokers, or worked with used oil or metal
cutting fumes and were soaked in non-pesticide chemicals
from these other sources 5-10 hours a day, just as a random
thought?

I think we should keep examining our tools, and keep making
better choices, and finding new tools.

Paul
 
As to the original message, I admire the organic folks who work on producing a good quality product, and deal with the direct sales to customers.

I used to more or less be organic, before it was fashionable. Different timing and concerns that we have today, and as the original message says, there can be some benefits to the crop with reduced crop injuries. That is a very real thing. Many of the older herbicides will last in the ground for several months, and with a cold long winter and or a dry period, they don't break down until you are planting the next crop.

So a lot of truth to the original persons message.

Paul
 
Lots of innuendo and fear mongering in the anti-technology sector. If ANYONE had any valid proof of GMO's being harmful to humans, they'd be all over the media with it. Funny thing is, they've been searching for skeletons in the closet for 25 years now and STILL don't have anything but unsubstantiated correlations, rumors, conspiracy theories, and a lot of "what if's". No real evidence though. None.

Chemical pesticides can be used SAFELY when people follow directions. Problem is, not everyone does that. The reality is, they're going to be used. Both the anti-pesticide crowd AND many of those who improperly use chemicals would greatly improve the situation with EDUCATION. Possibly the single biggest failure on the anti-chemical side is their tendency to spread false and misleading information, either on purpose, or by simply not knowing about what they speak of. A person throws out ONE piece of false info, you lose all credibility with those who know the facts of the matter.

Both sides of this issue seem to be overloaded with bad info at times. Keep an open mind and learn the facts, and NOT just the "facts" that conveniently support your agenda.
 
(quoted from post at 08:58:10 06/12/14) Lots of innuendo and fear mongering in the anti-technology sector. If ANYONE had any valid proof of GMO's being harmful to humans, they'd be all over the media with it. Funny thing is, they've been searching for skeletons in the closet for 25 years now and STILL don't have anything but unsubstantiated correlations, rumors, conspiracy theories, and a lot of "what if's". No real evidence though. None.

Chemical pesticides can be used SAFELY when people follow directions. Problem is, not everyone does that. The reality is, they're going to be used. Both the anti-pesticide crowd AND many of those who improperly use chemicals would greatly improve the situation with EDUCATION. Possibly the single biggest failure on the anti-chemical side is their tendency to spread false and misleading information, either on purpose, or by simply not knowing about what they speak of. A person throws out ONE piece of false info, you lose all credibility with those who know the facts of the matter.

Both sides of this issue seem to be overloaded with bad info at times. Keep an open mind and learn the facts, and NOT just the "facts" that conveniently support your agenda.


No one was talking GMO's. Chemicals can be used safely according to whom? The ends users (for profit) and the chemical companies (again for profit)? Some chemicals leach out worst than others creating more runoff but they all have run off. And you are potentially betting your life and the lives of your loves on it's safety. I have grandkids that I love dearly. I'm not willing to risk them over profit. I do use 2-4-D once every couple of years on my pasture to help keep the weeds in check. But that's only when knocking them back with a brush hog isn't keeping up with them. Now I've got friends who are trying to convince me I shouldn't do that. I should according to them add goats to the mix. I hate goats, ain't gonna happen.

Rick
 
Want to know the biggest mistake we ever made? We found out that people thought their food came from Wal-Mart. We should have just left it at that.
For generations we've always been told that "you don't want to know how sausage is made".
We shouldn't have told anybody how anything is made. It just brought the crazies out of the woodwork.
We can't undo it now I suppose. We'll just have to deal with it.
 
Pure glyphosate is low in toxicity, but products usually contain other ingredients that help the glyphosate get into the plants. The other ingredients in the product make the product more toxic.
Whether it enters the plant through the leaves or the roots, it's in there.
 
I think on the thought of no-till with its more chemicals and less soil loss and conventional with fewer or no chemicals and more soil erosion.Not sure which way is right so we do a mix of both.I like the benifits of cultivating corn but not the erosion. Tom
 
(quoted from post at 11:10:52 06/12/14) Want to know the biggest mistake we ever made? We found out that people thought their food came from Wal-Mart. We should have just left it at that.
For generations we've always been told that "you don't want to know how sausage is made".
We shouldn't have told anybody how anything is made. It just brought the crazies out of the woodwork.
We can't undo it now I suppose. We'll just have to deal with it.

No the biggest mistake mankind has made is letting people put profit over everything else. Those are the "crazies", money, money and more money above anything else.

Rick
 
Herbicides, insecticides, GMOs....all things in moderation seems to be the best advice.

As far as profit, whats "too much"? If you're the guy buying then 1% is too much. If you're the guy producing whatever it is that's developed the item, put your time and money and work into it, employ the people making it and are trying to ensure your continued success....how much is "enough"? The employees want raises, taxes always go up causing every other cost to rise, new regulations always cost you....how much is "too much"?
 
Wow...You aughtta go into politics....Those people say things even when they don't know what they're talking about. You'd fit right in....
 
(quoted from post at 21:03:29 06/13/14) Then again, your friends may be just as loony as you are

What? Looney because I don't trust the makers of all of these so called safe chemicals? You know, the ones with a very poor track record of producing safe products? Looney because the DNR here is recommending that people eat local caught fish because of chemicals in the water that could only come from run off? Looney because I don't agree with you? You are the one who should go into politics. You have that ridicule it and it will go away thing down pretty good. That's one the politicians always use. Couple that with greed and you have the perfect politician.

Rick
 
I use buck wheat to smother out the weeds.
Cultivate twice preemergence, broadcast into
pumpkins, squash,dent corn and walk away. I figure
the extra spent on buck wheeat seed is made up in
much better pollination. also plant rye for over
winter and straw in spring. Being organic for 28
yrs now, started out with the usual snickers and
comments but over the years hasn"t been a one of
my chemical brethren not sidled up and asked how
would you? Chemicals and now GMO have me scared to
death, anybody out there remember DDT,
thalidomide,dioxin? I"m 61 and I remember the
stories told by my grandfather"s generation, how
farmers after spraying felt so sick and twisted up
wouldn"t go to sleep for days fearing they
wouldn"t wake up. Potato/tobacco farmers in this
neck of the woods called it the walking cure
 
good grief, gmo stuff has been around for over 20 years. There has not been one case of any health issue that can be linked to gmo crops. The only thing scary about GMOs is the ghost stories the anti's have been spreading.

DDT? Some eco freak wrote a book and totally twisted the facts and started a cult following. The head of the newly minted EPA happened to be one of the cult and wanted to prove a point. Blatantly ignoring any evidence provided during hearings, DDT was banned.
Evidence has shown that it wasn't DDT that killed birds it was people. Whether it was for a bounty paid by state governments or by collecting eggs and disturbing nests, folks had much more to do with the loss of certain birds than DDT
 
(quoted from post at 12:54:44 07/08/14) good grief, gmo stuff has been around for over 20 years. There has not been one case of any health issue that can be linked to gmo crops. The only thing scary about GMOs is the ghost stories the anti's have been spreading.

DDT? Some eco freak wrote a book and totally twisted the facts and started a cult following. The head of the newly minted EPA happened to be one of the cult and wanted to prove a point. Blatantly ignoring any evidence provided during hearings, DDT was banned.
Evidence has shown that it wasn't DDT that killed birds it was people. Whether it was for a bounty paid by state governments or by collecting eggs and disturbing nests, folks had much more to do with the loss of certain birds than DDT

I'm not saying it's safe and I'm not saying it's dangerous. I still think schools out on that. It's the so called safe chemicals that everyone is spraying like mad that I don't trust. Chemicals that wouldn't be used were it not for GMO's. How many times has a "safe" chemical been sold only to find out 20, 30 and 40 years later were not so safe after all?

Rick
 
(quoted from post at 20:37:46 07/08/14)
(quoted from post at 12:54:44 07/08/14) good grief, gmo stuff has been around for over 20 years. There has not been one case of any health issue that can be linked to gmo crops. The only thing scary about GMOs is the ghost stories the anti's have been spreading.

DDT? Some eco freak wrote a book and totally twisted the facts and started a cult following. The head of the newly minted EPA happened to be one of the cult and wanted to prove a point. Blatantly ignoring any evidence provided during hearings, DDT was banned.
Evidence has shown that it wasn't DDT that killed birds it was people. Whether it was for a bounty paid by state governments or by collecting eggs and disturbing nests, folks had much more to do with the loss of certain birds than DDT

I'm not saying it's safe and I'm not saying it's dangerous. I still think schools out on that. It's the so called safe chemicals that everyone is spraying like mad that I don't trust. Chemicals that wouldn't be used were it not for GMO's. How many times has a "safe" chemical been sold only to find out 20, 30 and 40 years later were not so safe after all?

Rick

There are other questions that demand answers too. Why is the incidence of autism in our kids rising so fast? Why are girls starting to menstruate at 9-10 instead of 12 or 13 like they used to? Something we are doing is causing it. Food seems a likely source. Is it chemicals for weeding, GMO, preservatives...who knows. But something changed this stuff.
 

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