OT: Lack of Knowledge.

Back in 2000 we poured the footings for my daughters place,waited a year, laid up the block basement,covered the block top with plate, waited another year,put down subfloor, walls and roof. Last week daughter noticed the shingles surface curled, the insurance adjuster came out to look sent his report in and today my daughter got notice they will not be covered,because they are ORGANIC. We could have used lettuce leaves to cover the roof for all practical purposes of it.They were certainteed shingles,25 yr warranty, and had a class action lawsuit,but they want you to jump thru hoops. Their site says pull a shingle send it into Certainteed and they will determine if it is one of the bad ORGANIC shingles.We bought the shingle from Menards, but kept no shingle wrappings or any extras. There was no warning labels attached to the shingle bundles or we would not have installed them. It only happened this spring after the numerous snows, they were fine up until this year.Like everything else that fails, the customer has to take a big bite out of the CHIT pie.We're going to re roof it with metal. Anybody here experience the same crap,and YES the snow was removed through-out the winter.Seems you have to prove everything you buy in order to get fair treatment. With real estate taxes and home costs ie insurance etc. it becomes a unwarranted expense.( They are 25 year shingle) The web site for Certainteed claims dept shows the hoops you have to jump thru and still end up with nothing. Another one of those put your money down and take your chances outfits. Television ads show a lot of defective products such as hip replacement, mesh for womens lower surgery, etc.

Years back was talking to an older fella who went in for surgery, and they left a pair of forceps in him that separated, part of it pointed towards his heart, I seen the xray, atleast he has proof of the blunder. I believe that is one claim that couldn't be denied.
Wake up America, we're getting the shaft,by all kinds of inferior products being sold that a person has to rely on to be worth the value. Just ask Rusted Nuts about his corn bill.lol.

Oh the kicker is, her insurance company is going to take her off of their preferred insurance, because she had no claims on her house since it was built.So now they can increase her premium on a denied claim. Go figure. I used to use that company, until they said for me to keep insurance, I had to paint our block garage.Dumped them like a hot potato,thats American Family.They then kept pestering me,sending letters stating they had to know who my new insurance company was now. I sent a letter to them saying it was none of their business and if they kept persisting, I would sue for harassment. That stopped that crap. It always seem like a fight for some people when the companies products fail. I'll bet if we do send in a shingle they'll deny it is one of theirs.God bless America,
Regards, LOU.
PS we used our 706 IH tractor to grade her driveway and raise up material for her house.

Have you sent a shingle to Certainteed? It sounds like you gave up before even trying.

Been fighting doctors since They found out the wife has cancer back in 12-28-14, Have had a pretty good understanding with them for a month or so. Then Hospit said they could help us, Then found out they couldn't. That led to Medicare Canceling ALL payment for Drugs, Got that straighten out 2 weeks ago. Today we get a bill for $15,000.00 From the hospital for stuff clear back to 1-1-14 That we assumed WAS cover by UPMC insur. Because We were getting Receipts that said We DIDN"T OWN any amount more. It's all Fight unless you are getting some free corn!!!!

If I understand this correctly ,you have 14 year old shingles?
I have worked for contractors off and on and have done my own roofs. I can tell you from my experience that you are scarce likely to have a shingle company reimburse you or replace product.
The most common failure for shingle is poor ventilation in the attic beneath them,people pack insulation in so thick they block the air flow from the sofet up through to the roof vents. They also have inadequate vents. I bought a cottage with a two year old roof on it,a few years later I was up on it to remove a branch and I knew right away there was a problem,the now four year old shingles were cracking,starting to peel. I phoned the guy I work for and he said he would look...roof was shot! When we got under we lifted the sheeting and sure enough some do gooder who owned it before me crammed insulation into the rafters above the plate,blocking all air flow and baking the shingles in a few short years,when we went roofing we found this time and time again and people wouldn't believe us until we took them up and showed them. In a nut shell 25 year shingles don't last 25 years under the best conditions,but with good ventilation you can get 18 to 20 out of them.

Common practice in Wisconsin to deny roof claims on organic shingles. But, then again, why would an insurance company pay for a defective shingle that wasn't hail or wind damaged? If it had hail or wind damage, they would have to pay. You would need to prove when the hail damage occurred. Certainteed will give you a prorated settlement on the price of the shingles but it would be nothing like an insurance claim would be because they wouldn't cover replacement costs or labor or removal. Curling shingles last a long time before they leak, maybe even pretty close to the warranty period.

So whats with the 25 year warranty , organic or not they warped ?

You are correct about all of that as well. On my home I had cetainteed organic product. 12 inch pitch plenty of air chutes and roof vents. The shingles started curling at about 15 years but never did leak until they were replaced at about 22 years old. They were sealdon 20's so they only had a 20 year warranty.

Lou
Sorry to hear you are having problems. If I'm reading this right you installed the shingles in 2002 & noticed they a curling in 2013. I am not saying the shingles aren't the problem but 11 years later is a real indication that you don't have enough ventilation. Not enough ventilation on the Ridge, not enough ventilation on the Soffit, Or Both. Before you install metal roofing be really really sure you have enough ventilation or curled shingles will be the least of your problems in the future.

My sister is having problems with her shingles on her garage. The ones on the south side of the garage are curled up bad but the north side are just fine. The rest of the house is fine, and they are older than the garage. Maybe that is why we have so much junk ending up in the landfills as they can build cheap junk then when it fails sell it to you again....

Sorry, but you have to fight fight fight. They are counting on you giving up. Keep EVERY peace of paper. Notes of every phone call. Know what you sign. Got a bill on my Dad's stuff with a date for stuff after he died. It also had what looked like my signature, but I was 200 miles away at that time. Question them and they wrote the total bill off.

You wouldn't be the one who got such a big kick out of the guys barn roof collapsing from snow last winter, would you ?

I went through the certainteed hoops 2 years ago, junk shingles in cold climates. Took about a dozen pictures of the roof, mail box with address on it, copy of building permit, copy of electric bill, mail in a shingle with a picture of the spot where the sample was. Yes it was a lot of screwing around but they sent me 11 or 12 hundred $.

Why would you think the Insurance Co would stand behind the guarantee on the shingles?They didn't give the guarantee the shingle company did so I can't see how the insurance co would be any more liable for the shingles curling up than they would for something like the paint peeling off the wall.
Things like a 25 year guarantee on shingles are a joke anyway they'll maybe prorate the shingles only and not pay labor.

Homeowner's insurance pays for hazard damage, such as wind, rain and fire. It does not normally pay for defective construction or materials, although it probably would have paid for a new roof if the defective shingles had blown off in a storm.

I think, under the circumstances, the insurer would have rejected the claim regardless of who made the shingles and what composition they are.

You bought 25 year shingles and they only lasted about 12 years. So Certainteed should owe you about half the cost of new shingles and installation. The first thing to do is to establish proof of purchase. I have to believe you kept the original receipt, which ought to say the brand and type of shingle. You'll have to work through the manufacturer's process for warranty claims. Now if indeed the shingles are covered by a class action lawsuit, that's probably in your favor and I would expect you'll get a better deal than with a simple warranty claim. But right now all you have is the insurance adjuster's opinion that the shingles are organic, and he might not know an organic shingle from an origami shingle.

Your daughter's mistake was trying to file a claim for something not covered by her policy. I'm, sorry, but I can't have a lot of sympathy regarding her rate change. A lot of people (my late, beloved but cheapskate father-in-law for one) put off roof repairs until a storm blows off all their rotten shingles, then file a claim for a new roof. As much as I detest insurance companies, I can hardly blame them for denying a few bogus roof claims and bumping up rates on policyholders who submit them.

I agree with some of the other posters- unless it's storm damage can't see the insurance company being involved, it was a mistake to even call them. You fight needs to be with the shingle manufacturer and maybe the folks that sold you the shingles, but read the fine print on you warranty, at most they owe you for the shingles, they might have a pro-rated clause in the warranty so they owe you for about 1/2 of the cost of the shingles, to get them to pony up you'll have to convince them you followed all the rules and kept all the paperwork, if you didn't sorry Charlie you're out of luck. And believe me the shingle companies are almost as good as insurance companies at denying claims. Once a market on a specific product becomes "mature" with several (like 3) big players market dynamics change and unfortunately the consumers often get hurt. The recourse the consumer has is not to buy Certainteed ever again, if 3 or 4 million consumers make this pledge a year in 10-15 years they'll have to change. Unfortunately consumers don't buy a lot of roofs and most folks don't live in the same house for the duration of a roof anymore, the manufacturers count on this and it allows them to make sub standard products. I'm a big fan of steel roofs, they last longer and steel recycles, not that I'm a tree hugger but I like the idea of hauling roofing to the scrap yard and getting a check rather than going to the landfill and writing one. There are other roofing products that will provide good service I've seen rubber shingles that look like slate, expensive but they last 75-80 years. Copper is good and makes rubber look cheap. One thing we need to consider is newer houses have shallow roofs (because they're cheaper to build) and that isn't good for long roofing life. If we build to a low cost don't be surprised if you get low quality or short life.

The standard home owners insurance policy covers the roof from damage, not defect. Wouldn't matter who you were insured through. Just simply not covered. That would be like you having a engine failure and expecting your standard auto insurance to cover the repair. Isn't going to happen. You can buy insurance from some companies that cover defects in materials and workmanship but most don't cover more than 3-5 years.

Good luck with trying to get the company to pay more than about 1/3, maybe a little more.

Rick

File a claim in Small Claims Court. That will get their attention and they may pay to make it go away.

FYI, we weren't looking for sympathy, just mad about products that are supposed to last X number of years,and information should be posted on the package as to the composition of products.Had we known it was ORGANIC, it would have never been bought.
The reason daughter contacted the insurance wasn't to file a claim, just wanted to know if it was covered under her homeowners insurance, they said it was a bad year for roofs up here and alot of other homeowners had that problem after all the snow,and wanted to send out an inspector/adjuster to look.

Even if we send in a shingle, I think it will be a waste of time and money,cause like every other company, it is cheaper to deny claims than pay them out.Taking to small claims court, will be a waste of time and money as the company will hire a local attorney to represent them,who is overly friendly with the judge and she'll lose for sure. Don't ask me how I know BTDT. I tried with with Pennzoil who owned a rust proof coating that was put on my 86 new F150,and product was guaranteed for life.Rust showed up, I filed a suit and lost,judge took all the guaranty paperwork and dismissed with prejudice so couldn't refile. There should be justice in this world,cause I don't call it justice. Make matters worse, the courthouse records showed they sued me. It's a good thing I didn't hire an attorney cause it would have been additional loss cost. Futility in motion.Same would be with the roof shingles.
Any way just wondering how many others run through this same problem?

Looks like a new metal roof for her this year.

Oh and yes there is air movement in the attic, from continuous roof vent, sofit vents, gable fan with vents. Also used the poly eave vents that staple to the trusses so adequate ventilation is there. Insulation in the attic is R-34 total.No ice on roof ever. Complete attic ventilation. Thats how we did it.
Just poor design and product from Certainteed.
Regards,
LOU

Rusted,
You have my most deepest sympathy for your pain. I lost a daughter with cancer who went through chemo treatment,sent home, that night she started hemorrhaging, we rushed her back to local hospital and they air lifted her to sacred heart in Eau Claire. I was told the doctor was not available( who did the medication) left that day to play golf and couldn't be reached at the Rice Lake hospital. Meanwhile my daughter was bleeding to death. She died of cervical cancer,so I know about what you are going through. Prayers and sympathy's are with you and your wife for a speedy recovery. Warmest Regards Ever,
LOU

i bought some underground wire from menards that failed. took pictures of bad spots (8) when i spliced them, and the company that made the wire sent me a check for the wire splicing and the electrician. i was really surprised, i sent them a bill of my cost. menards had a form to fill out when you have a bad -failed product after installation

hrRoss,
Nice post at least you understand. She went through all her receipts from Menard's, every one of them are faded out white. Tried to call Menard's to see if they had backup records of purchase, they only hold them for three years. So no luck there. Regards,
LOU

> information should be posted on the package as to the composition of products

In the case of shingles, if it doesn't say "fiberglass" on the package you should assume they are organic. Organic is the "standard", even though fiberglass shingles are much more common. Sort of like if you buy a pair of fishing pliers, if they don't say "stainless steel" you can be quite certain they are not stainless (a stupid mistake I made recently).

The only reason for using organic shingles is they're easier to work with in cold weather than fiberglass. Most building supply houses that cater to professional roofers stock them, but I've never seen organic shingles in a "big box" store. (I never go into Menards, but I know it's true of Home Depot and Lowes.)

Sorry for your loss.

As we've found in our part of Oz you have to work out if that is the time for the product or the company

I doubt they'll cover anything. At the 1/2 life of a shingle you've noticed that they are showing some age? Read the warranty - I doubt it says "Guaranteed to look like new for 25 years".

Something I found out back after the Ice Storm of 98 is that you never, ever, EVER make a claim on your homeowners unless you have absolutely no other possible option. My agent stopped me from making a mistake that would have gotten me a check for about $1500.00 from the company and would have cost me thousands and thousands over the next 10 years! Some people I know use their homeowners insurance like they use their "health insurance", which isn't really insurance at all but rather a healthCARE plan. They make claims all the time it seems, for what IMO is stupid stuff (baseball into vinyl siding, pool liner ripped through carelessness, cat damage to furniture) and then they complain because their homeowners insurance bill is so high.

What my agent told me is you never make a claim until the house burns down or something drastic happens. Otherwise you are just a money maker for the ins co.

Beyond that, this post gives me the chills as I just put a new shingle roof on our house a few years back. I wanted steel, she wanted shingles. You know who won!

Lou, I would at least make the effort of sending int he sample, jumping through the hoops, etc. If there is a big problem with the shingles like I think you stated, the contact your State Attorney General office and see if there is a class action suit or other on going case or do some Google-ing for how other people got them to make it right.

You've got me wondering if my in-law's in nothern Michigan have the same problem. They built the house 14 years ago and the roof is some sort of architectural-grade asphalt shingles. 1/2 the house -facing the sun - it completely curled up. Has to be fixed soon. I might put steel on it for them. But . . I hadn't heard about the law-suit and now I'm wondering. Home insurance is not something I'd ever consider for a roof problem unless a storm tore it off.

It looks like you intend to change to a metal roof.
Steel roofing today does not seem to last anywhere near as long as it did 50 or a hundred years ago, I have steel roofing on my house guaranteed until 1928. Steel roofing today is inferior to steel made years ago.
There isn't a contractor in my town I would trust to put roofing on according to the manufacturers instructions and if it isn't done right, you can forget about a guarantee. I think it's just because they never bothered to read the instructions.
Example, the latest instructions I saw said minimum 5/8" Plywood and special larger diameter and shorter screws. If you use OSB or 1/2" plywood or the longer skinny screws sorry, you did it wrong no warranty.
DO SOME RESEARCH AND MAKE SURE YOUR CONTRACTOR DOES IT ACCORDING TO THE INSTRUCTIONS.
DON'T let him tell you "We always do it this way" Good luck

No offense, but it is pretty common knowledge that:

1. The warranty is heavily prorated.
2. Shingles NEVER last as long as the warranty implies.

In harsher climates you can't expect more than 15 years out of a cheap bottom-of-the-barrel "25 year" shingle. Even a professional installer will tell you that.

With all the fraud going on in the world today, you're surprised that you have to jump through hoops to make a warranty claim? How dare they not take your word for it? Seriously?

They don't know you from Adam. For all they know, you don't even own a single bundle of their shingles, let alone a roof full of failed shingles. This isn't a criminal matter, so it's guilty until proven innocent.

If Certainteed blindly paid out every warranty claim, all bleeding-heart like, Certainteed would have ceased to exist long ago. It's not a sustainable business model.

Send the sample. It's a few minutes of your time, an envelope, and some postage. They do pay out on LEGITIMATE claims. You just have to prove you're legitimate.

Bret4207;

"I wanted steel, she wanted shingles. You know who
won!"

Why didn't you BOTH compromise and install STEEL
SHINGLES ? LOL!

Doc

(quoted from post at 23:46:48 06/02/14) Oh and yes there is air movement in the attic, [b:8d75961532]from continuous roof vent, sofit vents, gable fan with vents.[/b:8d75961532] Also used the poly eave vents that staple to the trusses so adequate ventilation is there. Insulation in the attic is R-34 total.No ice on roof ever. Complete attic ventilation. Thats how we did it.
Just poor design and product from Certainteed.
Regards,
LOU

Click to expand...

There is your problem Lou, you cant combine the different types of attic ventilation or it short cycles and dont work. In this case, because you have ventilation that goes against what the manufacture requires, you wont get a dime. Sorry but you have to make sure the venting is right or the shingles will fail... anybodys shingles. Im sure that doesnt make you feel any better but thats the way it is.

As for the insurance, others have already given you good advice: if you want affordable insurance, never file a claim unless you cant afford to cover that loss. Even then, keep in mind the insurance company will jack your rates and get even again anyway so.... never file a claim. Read more about a CLUE report at the link. https://www.privacyrights.org/clue-and-you-how-insurers-size-you It even says in there, you dont have a file a claim, just calling your agent with questions can go on your CLUE report and end up getting you canceled. It sounds like thats what happened with your daughter, she called with questions, the insurance dinged her CLUE report and now she is paying more. Sucks but thats the world we live in and you can be rest assured, it wont get better...

(quoted from post at 10:24:42 06/03/14) Bret4207;

"I wanted steel, she wanted shingles. You know who
won!"

Why didn't you BOTH compromise and install STEEL
SHINGLES ? LOL!

Doc

Click to expand...

Silly question Doc. Simple answer- Compromise...with a woman....not gonna happen!