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Railroad Tie Date Nails

B

Billy NY

Well-known Member
Whats the oldest you have found?

I was cleaning up around the place and decided this stack of old ties that my father had delivered here in the late 70's, which he never used, needed to go to the burn pile. It was interesting sorting through the pile, there were some oak ties, oldest one had a '30 nail in it, was oak, others were a needle bearing species, it looked like a fir species, all but one were just waterlogged and crumbling, parts of them were intact. I was imagining what went over these all those years ago, mostly steam, but I did find ties with '50 and '54 nails. I always wondered what species they typically used for ties, the date nails are nostalgic for sure, I think I have all that came from this pile, hopefully the creosote is dissipated, they are on top of a huge brush pile, so they ought to burn good LOL !
 
Hi Billy - I have some tie date nails, and I think the oldest is either 1926 or 1928. My shop is an old building and it has a center post (made from a switch tie) and I drill holes in the post to display the nails. I had a bunch more, but they stayed at the old place when we moved.

On the wood species - they used to be white oak, but no idea what a modern tie is made from. One of my wife's great grandfathers was a "tie hack" and made a meager living making ties by hand. They said he could hack out six ties in a day, and eight if he started before daylight and worked 'til he couldn't see. Obviously a better man than me.
 
I cannot even imagine doing that by hand, but it probably kept a lot of people working, given the times, that's how it was done then, they certainly did not know any different and neither would we, if we traded places. I find the old rail systems interesting, I worked at the D&H Colonie Shops just north of Albany NY, often in the 4 years I worked at the lumber yard, we used to get most of our stock off the rail cars, lumber on open cars and plwyood in box cars. It was sad as the shop was in its waning years, not much activity, but I did go inside any chance I got and saw locomotive engines apart, they still did some work there, I found some photos on the web of the place, sad to see its demise, thinking back I too worked there in a sense, at lunch I would roam around and explore, never saw anyone in there. I used to deliver lumber to the other large yard, which was the largest in the U.S, at one time, the Mechanicville D&H yard, which is completely gone. We had all these old business accounts, most of these places are now gone, 'cept a few. I remember the unbelievable number of trailer loads of ties they hauled off this place, a trucking outfit we used to deal with did the job, what a huge stack of ties they had at their place, all were for sale by the trailer load.
 
Since you're on the railroad topic it made me think of some rail pieces I got long ago at an auction. In bygone years they obviously didn't temper the steel like now, the inner side is rounded over and some sledge hammer man must have had a bad aim. I've wondered what all rail traffic rolled over this, probably all steam power.
a155861.jpg
 
Lets have some fun and stir the pot a little.
Some of you should learn hazardous material and/or hazardous waste rules.
What you do on your place is your business but I would advise you not blab it all over the internet.
You never know who is watching.

What is required by New York State law?

Article 27, Title 25, (27-2501 through 27-2513), of New York State Law, requires that after January 1, 2008:
•Creosote or products containing creosote shall not be manufactured, sold or used in this state. Wood treated with creosote that is in use in this state as of such date may continue to be used in such use.
•Neither creosote nor any wood or other product treated with or containing creosote shall be disposed of in this state, except in a permitted facility, in a landfill permitted by the department and approved by the department to accept this material and properly lined to prevent groundwater contamination, or by any other method approved by the department.
[b:654c4848f0]•Neither creosote or any wood or other product treated with or containing creosote shall be burned in any manner in this state, including in fireplaces and stoves, except in a facility permitted to burn the specific type of creosote waste.[/b:654c4848f0]
 
The tie business is mostly low grade mixed hardwoods now according to what I hear. I don't saw ties myself but I have read some about those who do.
Zach
 
Yeah, a day of that kind of work would kill me, in fact, I don't think I was ever man enough to work like that. That old man died in 1922 at age 72, and hacking on a piece of wood was all he ever knew. His father (and the boys in the family) cut wood to fuel the steam boats on the Mississippi River until the river changed course and left Rockwood Illinois high, dry and deserted. I read in an old history of Randolph County Illinois that they sold a 600 foot long rack of firewood to the steamers each day. It was a livelihood for the surrounding community in the days when a chainsaw hadn't even been dreamed of. So - when the river shifted, they turned to hacking out railroad ties and mine props.

Railroading (and river traffic) has certainly changed. Now they make railroad ties out of concrete. Hang on to those date nails!
 
Sadly, John, government has destroyed the once great United States economy (and continues to do so).

Dean
 
Back in the 1950s thru the 1970s the local saw mill used to saw a lot of railway ties. We used to supply a lot of logs for ties to that saw mill. We supplied beech, maple, ash and oak logs for railway ties.
The logs were cut 8ft long there was also a demand for switch ties and they were longer. I can't remember if the were 12 or 16ft long.

JimB
 
(quoted from post at 10:50:40 05/03/14) We all breath the same air, if I saw my neighbor burning old railroad ties I would call law enforcement!
Click to expand...

You would rat out your neighbor for burning [color=red:b06fae7d17]80 year old ties?[/color:b06fae7d17] Whew, sure hope you never become my neighbor.
 
You're right, I won't even indulge the comments regarding this per what was quoted, it don't matter, they are on the pile and will be burnt. Land is posted and we pay high taxes, law enforcement ought to be dealing with the rampant theft around here ie; local stihl dealer where they broke down the door a week ago today, and cleaned out most of if not all the power equipment on the shelf, they did not even check for fingerprints or conduct an investigation enough to satisfy the owner. He took 2 brand new Kubota tractors as they are a large dealer of same and parked one on the inside of the door and one outside, because the thieves are still at large and pushing the envelope around here for years, every single business in this corridor has been hit hard, they even broke into a secure vault at the feed store. This should be high priority and I am losing respect for these guys. The other thing is, these are so decayed, they crumble, some are dry rotted and may be hard on one side on the outside but hollow in the middle. They've sat in a tee pee pyramid pile since '98,been here 20 years prior to that in a heap where they were dropped, the tee pee pile recently fell over, and there are ants, mice and other vermin that were living in there.

They have been placed on top of a large pile of dead dry tops, that fire will be very hot, swift and done when the wind is right, and its still cool when there are no windows open. This will not smolder it will incinerate and quickly. Its in the middle of a field, and given the fact that numerous neighbors around here have burnt garbage and just downright nasty materials that have smoked the entire valley out, you can't go outside etc, so they can deal with mine. These will dry down in the air, and after looking and inspecting these ties, you can't even smell the preservative anymore, most were from the 30's some from the 50's. It may sound ignorant, but these were haven for vermin near my and neighbors house for years, they have to go. Where are these environmentalists when people burn garbage and have smoldering fires in their stoves or what have you. I used to canvass the neighborhood and find who was doing it and tell them about the smoke, does not happen as much, and I rarely have a burn pile here over the last 20 years.

The intent of this post was to talk about the date nails, related things friendly conversation etc, and my old creaky 850 tractor moved all these ties to the top of the pile. The intent was not of anything else.
 
Having grown up within 1/4 mile of the B & O railroad (now CSX), very close to where the helper (pusher) engine was stationed to help push the heavy westbound freights up the 15 mile hill out of the Ohio River valley, I've been a railroad fan all of my life. I am just old enough to remember steam power.

I well remember laying in bed on warm summer nights (no AC, windows open) hearing the heavy double-headed freights pass by preparing to stop to enable the pusher to couple to the caboose. They would stop 1/4 to 1/2 mile from our farm, out of sight but well within hearing on a quiet summer night.

Shortly thereafter I would hear the helper engine glide by quietly on its way to its duty.

A few minutes later I would hear the helper engine signal with its whistle that it was coupled and ready. Briefly, thereafter I would hear a much more distant whistle from the head end locomotive acknowledging the helpers signal.

Within seconds, I would hear the helper begin to push (Usually, I could not hear the distant head end locomotives). Poof! Poof! Poof! Chh, Chh, Chh, Chh, Chh, Chh, as the engineer pulled back on the throttle and poured on the sand. Invariably the helper (and probably the head end locomotives as well) would slip (there was a lot of slack between the head end locomotives and the distant helper).

Shortly thereafter, the sequence would repeat, usually without slippage. I would listen with wonderment as the cadence of the helper grew more faint with distance until I could no longer hear it.

Fourty five or so minutes later, if still awake, I sometimes heard the helper quietly glide past west to east as it coasted back down the hill to await the next freight.

Much too young to know wheel arrangements at the time, I do not remember what type of locomotive was stationed for helper duty. I do remember that it was not articulated. Most of the hill was not particularly steep but it was long. On hard pulls steam locomotives would loose steam pressure (torque) if the firebox was not large enough to boil enough water to keep the pressure up under heavy loads. The helper also performed local switching duty when not needed for pushing duty. My best guess would be a 2-8-4 or maybe a 2-10-2. I remember that I was small and it was big.

I do miss steam locomotive power.

Dean
 
Sadly, there are now far too many folks such as you.

This year China will eclipse the United States as the worlds largest economy, a position held by the US since 1877 (1887?).

China did not do this by burdening its economy with governmental regulations.

The United States has done so.

Your call.

Dean
 
VERY good story Dean! We lived a mile from the IC railroad, and I remember hearing the steam trains whistle at the Boskeydell crossing on those warm summer nights.

Good memories of simpler times!
 
What are date nails? I have a lot of old RR spikes from the marine rail system at my boatyard--it was here in 1941 when my Dad bought the place.
a155881.jpg
 
We still cut a lot of ties here in East Texas. Oak, Ash, Sweet Gum, sometimes Cottonwood. I've never seen a Pine tie. 7" x 9" x 9 ft long. Good money when they need em. JB
 
I much miss the sight, smell and, especially, the sound of steam locomotives.

Someone once wrote (I cannot remember the author) that the steam locomotive is the most fascinating machine created by man because all of the moving parts are on the outside, clearly visable to those watching.

When small, I also remember riding in my Father's 1951 Buick on US 50 west of Cincinnati on our way back home to Indiana from "the city."

Here, the B & O and also NYC (subsequently PennCentral then Conrail) paralled the highway for 20 miles or so. Sometimes I was lucky enough to see the NYC James Whitcomb Riley, the NYC crack brass express daily Cincinnati/Chicago passenger train.

On such occasions, I well remember looking out the back window of the Buick (my Father probably driving about 55 MPH) as the the Riley would overtake us from behind at, maybe 70 - 75 MPH.

As the Riley passed us by, I remember scrambling to move from the middle back seat (I have two brothers) to the side window to watch the polished (stainless steel?) side arms of the magnificant 4-6-4 Hudson flail away on the (72"?) drivers as the Riley vanished into the into the dust and haze westbound to Chicago.

Dean
 
dpendzic: Steel date nail is hammered into end of tie to show when it was accepted by railroad. It was about 8-10d shank diameter, by about 1.5" long, with a head roughly the size of one on a "tar paper nail" (slightly thicker), and had a 2 digit number in relief (raised) on the head for the year. I've seen about 50 or so of them-earliest was 22 IIRC. Some dates were not real clear as they were "peened" with the hammer at installation. Most ties also had an "S" shaped piece of steel about 1/8"tk. x 1/2-5/8" wd x about 6" overall height x ~4" overall width hammered into each end to minimize splitting as it aged.
 
Dean,
What an intriguing story! I can see all that happening in my mind's eye thanks to you apt description. Thank you!
 
I used to buy used ties from the local track repair foreman (.25) in the '60's. All were hardwood and dated back to the 20's. For a short time the railroad tried softwood ties,but the spikes would not hold.
The foreman said he was quite happy to see steam power end as track maintenence was cut more than half with diesel power. The reason (that I hadn't thought of) was that,at the end of the drive stroke,there would be a jerk as the piston started to retract for the next cycle. Hope I've explained this properly.
 
They take ,Oak,Elm, Ash, Beach, Hickory, about any hard wood here. Right now the price is higher than I have ever seen in my life. Lots of smaller trees being cut just to get the tie log. Here cotton wood is considered soft wood and like pine they do not take them.
 
Wake up.

You can continue to live in a dream world and collect your private sector check for the immediate future.

Alternatively, you can continue to collect your government check for a bit longer but it too will stop, eventually.

Study history and economics, emphasis upon hsitory, if you want to understand how things work in the real world.

Dean
 
The real reason was that steam locomotives would periodically dump clinkers from the firebox, which would sometimes ignite the cross ties.

It was common practice to pull back a bit on the Johnson bar when decending long grades. This would cause the locomotige to vibrate, helping clinkers to drop from the firebox.

If there are any long abandoned main line tracks with significant down grades in your area you will find that cross tie fires are MUCH more prevalent in such areas, especially toward the bottom of such grades, than elsewhere.

Dean
 

When they were building the transcontinental railroad west from Omaha they used cottonwood for ties, because it was locally available. They knew that the cottonwood wouldn't last but they knew that the following year they would be able to haul in better quality ones on their own road much cheaper than what they had to pay to get them hauled in by horse drawn wagon from the forests to the north. Labor to replace them was cheap and trains ran only every few days at that time.
 
I have about a hundred of these nails, many of which I got when I bought fifty ties from the railroad. It was on a line (still being used) where they were replacing ties with new ones while the line was still in service. That in itself was a fascinating process. I made the deal to pick them up off the right of way for 50 cents each. Yes, it was a while back! I looked at every one I could and removed date nails as we went. Off that line I got a lot of them from the 40's and 50's. I got out and "inspected" some on another section of track that was not being used any more and got some nails that have a 99 stamped on them, with an underline on it. I have some 10's and several from the 20's. You would think all of them in a section would be the same, but that isn't true.

I too, remember scrambling to get a close up look at steam engines in use. I just turned 65, so by the time I got grown there weren't any around here being used. When I think about what all is involved in making one of these machines go...well, it's quite a deal for sure!
 
Actually we are in pretty flat country and this foreman had been with the railway for over 40yrs and sure knew his business.
The action I described actually loosened the rail spikes which made for more maintenence which was very much diminished with the introduction of the smoother running diesel electrics.
 
I picture you to look just like Homer Simpson. "Darn ,stupid EPA makin' us breath that clean air . Why can't we be like the Chinese and have crappy air. Doh "
 
(quoted from post at 16:00:10 05/03/14) Have you seen their air quality? You can't recognize your own mother at 30 feet! And you think that's OK!
Click to expand...

When was the last time you were in China?
 
Thanks smallercrawler!--I guess i should start looking for those date nails--many of the old ties have those S plates in the ends.
 
No.
The date nails were put into the top of the ties, toward the ends. Always on the field side of the track. The ends were always covered by gravel or ballast.
good luck
K
 
(quoted from post at 14:50:05 05/03/14) Sadly, there are now far too many folks such as you.

This year China will eclipse the United States as the worlds largest economy, a position held by the US since 1877 (1887?).

China did not do this by burdening its economy with governmental regulations.

The United States has done so.

Your call.

Dean
Click to expand...

Move to China then.
You will love the pollution.

China did this by imposing large import duties and we have little or none of stuff we import from them.
 
Steam locomotives dropped clinkers and coals all along the roadbed, regardless of terain. It was particularly common to do so when decending grades if conditions permitted as one could make the locomotive vibrate by pulling back on the reversing lever a bit but clinkers dropped regardless, and this did cause cross tie fires.

Steam locomotives were no more damaging to the roadbed than are diesel lovomotives but were more inclined to slip upon starting heavy trains (post back if you wish to learn why), which could in some cases wear the rails in spots.

Dean
 
Homer Simpson?

Sorry, but do not spend much time in front of the idiot box.

Dean
 
on the sawmill we used to drive "S" irons into the ends of some of the ties to keep them from splitting. That had to end when tie buying yards wanted the tie exactly 8 1/2 foot long, so installed saws to cut incoming ties the exact length, as the saw would cut into any S iron if it were driven in there.
 
I guess I would tend to rely on those who actually spent their lives doing the actual physical maintenence. Burnt ties were not that much of a problem in their area, which ran about 70 miles,as compaired to loosened spikes. It must have been a "here" thing as compared to the area you're talking about.
 
I have 1907,8,9,10,16 all the 20s,up till 1969. lots of looking and prying over the years. have one with an X on it.But looking for a 60
 
Union Pacific and BNSF are using a lot of concrete ties now. UP just opened a new concrete tie-making facility in Iowa.

UP is restoring one of their 4000-series "big-boy" steam locomotives more info at
upsteam.com
 
2x4, thanks for reinforcing my recollection that "most" single line ties were "standardized" at 8'6" in length, several of the posters mentioned other numbers that I did not recall. Switch ties and some others were longer to suit the purpose at hand, ie, switch stands (operating mechanisms) were commonly mounted on ties that extended from the "point" of the switch to minimize linkage misalignments that could occur if mounted on on different ties.

K-never seen them placed as you describe, thanks for the comment.

jimont-believe you are correct, the uneven power stroke on the steamers was known for inflicting great repetive impact stress on supporting structures, especially bridges; it was known as "loping", IIIRC(?). In addition to couterweights, a great number of schemes were developed to try to "even out" this pounding.

dpendzic-you're welecome, hope you find some!
 
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