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Lake Retrieval?

I

in-too-deep

Well-known Member
Here's a wild couple questions. If you heard a rumor about a very large, very old, very valuable tractor at the bottom of a local lake, what would you do? Said lake is 1468 acres and 40 ft. max depth. It's Minnesota so it gets 3-4 ft. of ice in the winter, enough to drive just about any vehicle on. Well, almost, apparently.

What would be the procedure to find it? Do they make a big metal detector on a boat? Sweep the lake with GPS grids, I assume. If you did find a big hunk of Iron, hire a diver to go down and look at it? Actually retrieving it would be a whole 'nother adventure.

Finally, what are the property laws concerning such a thing? Finder's-keeper's?
 
Here in Minnesota 2012 "Dassel" Meeker County. In Big Swan lake A 1939 Motor cycle was found. People who Sein Lakes, Netting carp hooked on the cycle and drug it out of the lake.
The Cycle went through the ice around 1958-59.
I lived by that lake back in the 60s and we had always heard rumors about the cycle. We had thought it was a Harley. The cycle had been made in Germany.
The people who found the cycle got to keep it. The Cycle is now on Display in Dassel MN. It still has all the fishing lures that got hooked on it over the years.
Brian
 
depends on your financial resources. either sidescan sonar or a magnetometer will locate it easily. klein makes a nice sidescan for about 40k. about the same for a decent towfish mag. on a budget, hit google earth for satelite views of the lake. eliminate as much as possible from the satellite pics. you can use a lcd fish finder and a gps and grid out the lake, then mark any targets. they sell an underwater camera that you drop over the side for fisherman for about 300 dollars. as far as whose it is, after mel fisher found the atocha off the florida keys, all the states claimed anything underwater was theirs until proven otherwise. i used to dive a lot of shipwrecks in the great lakes and hunted quite a few. now, i dont bother, its not worth the hassle. i may recover a car every now and then from a lake or river, but thats about it.
 
First I'd ask some local fisherman - if anybody would know, it'd be guys who fish the lake.

Otherwise, that's a pretty big lake to search.

If I found it and was feeling like I had nothing better to do - I think I'd go down and strap a bunch of barrels to it - fill them with air and float the thing to the nearest open shoreline where you could then pull it out with chains. Of course, if you don't have scuba gear that might be tough.
 
40k... as in 40 thousand? American dollars? Eeek! A FishCam would work great. We use em when ice fishing, but finding the darn tractor first would be the hard part.
 
Since you have done the math, this thing is heavy enough to go thru 3-4' of ice. How many barrels did you figure would it take to float it to the nearest shore?
 
Well, I don't know how much ice it fell through, if at all, but I don't think barrels would do it. Good idea, though. I'm picturing a wire rope to shore with a block and tackle and a big friggin tow truck.
 
Being a diver and involved in a couple recoveries, the actual recover in this shallow of a depth would be the easy part.

Here in Ohio, pretty much anything that has been lost and considered abandoned becomes the property of the state. Removal would get you in considerable trouble. Only exception I know of is if the original owner transferred ownership rights to and/or filed claim to it. Insurance companies do it all the time in case it is ever found.
 
Honestly;

It would not be worth the effort, or money to get it. Totally water logged, a PITA.

Now if it was a new Deere, NH or Case IH that fell through the ice 2 months ago.....Then that would be a different story, and the owner would get it back for sure.
 
Go to The King of Obsoletes web site I think he has some crawlers that were retrieved from the deep.
 
What if it was 1 of 9 steam engines ever built and none were known to have survived? I'd never have the money to try to find it, but it would be worthwhile, I think.
 
Barge with large crane on it.Sonar to locate it.Will cost a bunch of money but would be a fun quest.

Vito
 
I can't imagine any machine built by man falling through 3 or 4 feet of ice! so I doubt that's the case. Maybe - who knows. But man, that's a lot of ice.

I figure a 55 gallon drum would lift about 500 pounds so -

really depends on how big the tractor is. 10 - 15 - 20 barrels?

Might make a frame to hold an array of 5 x 4 barrels.

I never said it was PRACTICAL - what I said was IF I had nothing better to do - and really wanted the tractor that's how I'd attempt it.

You could wait for ice, and cut out a big hole and get a crane of some sort out there, but I think you'd find anybody with a machine big enough to lift it might not want to risk putting it down aside of the tractor.

I think trying to tow it out would be almost impossible - lake bottoms are thick and muddy and - at least around here, very rocky.

If I were to try to tow it out - I'd at least try to float it somewhat to take some weight off.
 
I dunno... running steam engines around $30k... this one might be $100K or more? I have no idea. I don't get into steam engines much. It's been underwater for a lot of years. If it's even there at all. Maybe it got cut up and we dropped it on the Japanese. Guy can't help but ponder.
 
If the barrels are 55 gallons they'd hold at least 400 pounds of water. Reverse submerged then filled with air they'd displace that amount. So 100 barrels would lift 40,000 pounds - pretty sure.
 
Cannot address your questions but there was a story on this site a number of years ago where a steel wheel rig was recovered.

Showed pics of moving it in stages. As it was on an island had to wait until lake froze over to move back to main land. I think it was up in MN or MI if memory serves.
 
I see a rumely oil pull weighs about 26,000 pounds - so

at 460 pounds of lift per barrel - that's 56 barrels.

3 racks of 4x5 barrels would do it.

Crazy - maybe - but ... I might try it for 100 grand.

of course - anything that's been underwater for too long is probably in pretty tough shape and not worth anything near that.
 
there was a 4020 recovered out of the Ohio a few yrs back near Evansville Ind fellow who did it used to frequent this site occasionally but haven't seen or heard from him in a while, think they also have the Gold D -100yr anniversary John deere.
 
Would sonar be clear enough? Maybe a fancy expensive one. I wouldn't think even the best fish finder would be clear enough.
 

For $1200.00 buy a hummingbird fish find with side scan sonar. You get pretty good images with them plus GPS.

This way you go out and fish while hunting for the lost treasure.

Pic of image to follow...
mvphoto5967.jpg


Heck, if you find it you may be able to claim salvage rights and ....
 
This cost a bunch of money just to pull this Ford Explorer out. It went in near our house, and only to the door handles. It happened last Dec. when there was only about 4-5 inches of ice, a drunk in the middle of the night. This last towing company were professionals, they pulled out 2 cables about 1 inch in diameter. The Ford was junk by the time they got it out.
a153718.jpg

a153719.jpg

a153720.jpg
 
They're really that clear? Wow. That may just be enough. My wife loves to fish as much as me, too. Now we have an excuse to get a boat.
 
problem with 55 gallon drums is building a manifold to control the air lift. 4-1000 gallon fuel drums would be a better choice. you would need to dredge or air jet the silt away to break the suction holding it to the bottom, unless it is a rock bottom. also you would need to run your lifting bridles under the engine and shackle and safety wire them closed. way easier to float it and tow it vs dragging it across the bottom.
 
4010 or 4020 JD went over the bank and into the Ohio River many yrs ago after a farmer left it out during a flood this time of year in river bottoms.This was near Evansville IN. He figured it was gone forever and forgot about it until maybe 6-8 yrs ago. Got to thinking some collector value was there. He knew where to look for it and got a barge crane to do some exploring for it . Long story short he found it (he remembered where to look). Tractor was too heavy to drift very far. The crane retrieved it. We're talking water depth 20 ft or so. The tractor was completely submerged for maybe 15 yrs. Think the lack of oxygen kept the rust at bay from eating the parts up. Farmer completely restored the machine,was a story in one of the farm tractor magazines about this few yrs ago.
 
I'm thinking the guy who said 100 might be closer to accurate. Personally, I think it would be a hoot to try to get it out of the lake. I'm wondering if doing it in pieces might be a better plan?
 
Donno, there's a local legend that there's STEAM ENGINE in a local lake lost during the lumbering era. Fell through the ice while hauling logs onto the lake for stockpiling for spring time log floating down the rivre. There have been attempts to locate it, but apparently no luck. Would seem that it would be fairly easy to limit the search area as there are still places in the terrain which which would indicate where the tracks entered thelake.
 
1963 3 window corvette stolen in Des Moines Iowa was recovered in the Banner pits, an old strip mine about 15 miles south of Des Moines. Ins company that paid the man for his car owned it. I do believe it has been completely restored and is now drivable. It was under water for something like 35 years, found by a couple of sport scuba divers. good luck with your quest, would be a fun deal to find.
 
I'm thinking this is the same kinda situation. It's a heavily wooded area. Not logged much lately, but I'm sure it was back in the early parts of the last century.
 
At the Buckley Michigan show in 2012 the local club had an old steam engine that after many years submerged had been restored. I donot remember the details. I did a quick search on line and did not find anything on it. Maybe some one will have some details.
joe
 
Similar thing on King of the Hill. Hank. Bill. and Dale sunk Boomhauer's car into a lake while students in high school, Boomhaur's varsity jacket was still in pretty good shape. These guys do not lie
 
I've got a lot more faith in the ability of folks back then vs now. I'd think if was ever going to come out,the folks back then who knew where it was would have done it. Seems like there was a lot more ingenuity back then.
 
I subscribe to Air classics, Warbirds, and Aviation History mags. They are pulling old WWII aircraft out of the great lakes and waters all over the world.

The cold, dark water, and lack of O2 helps preserve them. Lots of times they are pulled out with paint and many things intact.

Doesn't matter if they have been in the water two months or 60 years.


I too am a diver. 40' is shallow to dive in. If the water was clear you could basically snorkel along on the top and see it, if you have a generally idea of where to look.

Local fishermen, and fish finding equipment would be a big help.

Gene

Gene
 
Bull Dozer by Steven Meader, got me interested in 'em in the 60's. An "All-American" teenager, after WW2 in the north country, finds a cat D-2
with logging winch, recovered with enthusiasm, after it fell thru the ice. Good story. Later I even met his son who lived in our township.
 
ice trip
Untitled Audio Video
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Golly - you just solved a 52 year ongoing quest for me! I read that book when I was in the 6th grade back around 1962. For me, that was an accomplishment because the book had very few illustrations ;-)

I couldn't remember the book name or the author (I'm a dork - Bull Dozer - too easy) and have always wanted to get a copy of it. Wife just looked it up for me and said it was still available on Amazon.
 
Thanks I have wanted to find and read it again. I read it when I was a freshman in high school. I remember them putting another 3 speed transmission behind the original in his Plymouth. Also bought a Traxevector (spelling) A bucket loader that went up and down like a forklift. And a 4 bottom plow. I loved that book. Brings back memories. Thanks again Vic
 
Under water recovery can be tricky and very dangerous. If you do locate it have a professional take a look at it before anything is done. I don't care what it's worth it's not worth some ones life.


What Gene said, 40 feet is within amateurs reach as far as diving goes. What's the clarity of the lake? West Battle is about 12 feet. Eagle is about 30.

Rick
 
Side scan sonar is what is used to find such things under great depths of water. I have no doubt it would be quite expensive... but you asked how to find it, not how much it would cost. LOL.
Visit the King of Obsolete's website. He's got a lot of pics on there and stories about recoveries. Most times they use an arch to draw the thing back up through the hole in the ice with something with an appropriate sized winch hauling on it... like a D6 or D8. Salvage arches are still in use today, not just in days gone by like the KOO talks about...

Rod
 
I think it was on here about a year or so ago, the video of a Komatsu D375 pulling a W.W II tank out of a lake. Still had live shells on board and was basically preserved under water. They said it didn't take too much work to get it running. A guy remembered seeing it driving across the dry lake near the end of the war as a kid but never remembered seeing it drive out. Pretty cool video.
 
But probably at that time is was just considered to be a piece of junk not worth bothering with. Now that piece of junk could be a one of a kind unit worth $200,000.
 
Check out "King of Obsolete" "s page . he has pulled lots dozers out of lakes and made them run again . Very interesting reading. Once there you will be hooked .
 
Or get set up to dive yourself. 40 feet is not bad at all, but I bet that water is COLD.

I would bet that there is technology available that uses some kind of a towed magnetometer that might be able to locate the iron. Just where to go to find that technology is something I don"t know about. I would start with the internet and see what I could find.

If you did locate something that has a strong magnetic signature, you would want to either dive yourself or have someone else go down and look at the find. A video would help you decide if you think what you found is in any way worth trying to retrieve.

That would be a tough question to answer. I would consider how long the machine has been submerged, how much damage it suffered when it hit bottom, how heavy it might be, the possible value if you got it out and got it working again, and probably how much time I had to devote to something like this. And there are probably many more factors to consider.

If it is a large, heavy machine, it will be very difficult to raise it, especially if it is deeply stuck in sediments. There might be ways a novice could devise to do this, but I bet that would take lots of time and money. If there is a marine salvage contractor in the area, I would sure try to pick their brains and definitely see how much it would cost for them to get the machine to dry land.

But first things first. You need to locate the machine before you can do anything else. If you already have a boat, you have part of the equipment needed to try to find the "treasure". With the electronic equipment you might find numerous promising locations. I would get a GPS and use that to record the locations and then dive when I could. It could be the start of an interesting hobby.

I wouldn"t plan on getting rich doing it though. Good luck!
 
If you have to do it on the cheap, I"d recommend that you RENT the equipment needed to find the location. Mount the fish finder on the rented boat....then when you locate it, mark an "X" on the side of the boat, to save the location. Make sure you rent the same boat when you head back with the recovery equipment.
 
(quoted from post at 23:36:10 04/11/14) Thanks I have wanted to find and read it again. I read it when I was a freshman in high school. I remember them putting another 3 speed transmission behind the original in his Plymouth. Also bought a Traxevector (spelling) A bucket loader that went up and down like a forklift. And a 4 bottom plow. I loved that book. Brings back memories. Thanks again Vic
Click to expand...
There was a mistake in the book about the driving with the additional transmission. Supposedly to operate the car normally he was to leave the additional transmission in neutral. I don't remember too much else about the book.
 
So I stumbled across this thread by accident, but PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE...Unless you are a TRAINED Salvage Diver, DO NOT DO NOT attempt this! NO Average Recreational Diver has a CLUE, and it is playing with a live grenade! They things that can go wrong trying to salvage something like this are WAY too many to list here -> all Deadly!

I am a staff instructor for a Public Safety Dive Team, and more than once I have heard/seen something like this get us called out to retrieve the body... Second only to not wearing a PFD...

Hire a professional Diver to do the salvage...Please!

Tommy D.
 
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