Heat pumps

We had a very cold winter, 2 months of very cold sub-zero temps, many days high were in 20s.

I set a record for my total electric baseboard home with no heat pump, $300 and $320 for a total of 64 days.

I know 2 people with new air to air heat pumps in central Indiana. One heat pump is a new trane with the brain box to measure outside temp and make smart decisions. Both heat pumps cost $7500. Both electric bills were $550 each month, because they were using the heat pump during the two very cold months, spending loads of money on defrost cycles. A hot gas defrost means they are air conditioning inside the house to warm up the outside coils.

I told one guy to manually turn his heat pump off and use back up electric. This last month was a little warmer. Well today he saw me with a smile on his face. His electric bill went from $550 to $225. He also said with the heat pump turned off,there is heat coming out register, it actually fells warm, the furnace actually shut off. He said he would never buy another heat pump. The man is 78 years old and older people like to feel heat. I told him heat pump is a cold heat source.

He said he would never buy another heat pump. Couldn't see how one would ever pay for itself.

BTW, my electric bill dropped to $223, again because it was a little warmer.

My electric rates are $.10/ kw-hr.

These are just the facts. I'm sure heat pumps will work just fine in warmer climates.

Another man at breakfast is in the HVAC business. He know a man who installed a geo, $15,000 investments. The repair man said the person just hates his geo. Again, most old people like to feel heat, not cold heat.

The man in the HVAC business, like me, think heat pumps are a joke in our area. Electric heat is cheaper, less expensive to repair, and you can feel the heat.

George

To each his own as they say. Of course I am 200 miles south of you but. Have one of the computer controlled trane units. Heating 2800 square feet with electric hot water and cooking . This past cold spell the highest bill was $168.00 . Our rate for electricity is just a little less than yours. House stays warm and never notice the defrost cycle no cold forced into the house all that happens is fan reverses outside. And yes we did have nights in the 20s where heat
pump kicked out and all electric kicked in but lots of 30 is where heat pump works great.

Hi , I/we had a heat pump installed last August , cost over $7,000.00. We live in a cold climate, Nova Scotia. Our heat pump is connected into the oil fired hot air furnace.I am quite pleased with cost to date. I do sometimes burn wood, mostly rely on the heat pump, haven't used much oil, so in all honesty I would say the heat pump is the way to heat your home,now I am only telling the facts as they happen in our household. My brother who lives 100 miles from me, had one installed last year and keep's accurate information as to cost. Has not used any oil this winter and the cost were only $48.00 for electric each month Jan and Feb. Cheers, Murray

George, I to work the HVAC& mostly R field. Unless you live on the Gulf Coast, a heat pump is not a good source of heat. Now many of the heat pumps in this are, and likely yours, are part of an air/gas pack where the heat pump shuts of a fairly tolerable temp and turns on the gas portion of the system. This is not a bad system as during the early fall and mid spring, there are days where the temp is only slightly chilled and the reversing valve will heat the home fine, for less money.

I would convert to a ground source

George seems to have a vendetta against heat pumps.He gives all these $$$$ numbers,but never gives how many Sq.Ft.and what temp.he is maintaining on that footage.

(quoted from post at 17:48:47 03/27/14) because they were using the heat pump during the two very cold months, spending loads of money on defrost cycles.

Click to expand...

.............. and therein lies the problem. Simply program the HP to lockout at a temperature where it is no longer cost effective and let the auxilliary heat source, whatever it may be, take over. Operator error, not the HP's fault. I have had one here in Minnesota for over 15 years and am pleased with it. But I also am realistic on what it can do in my climate.

Seriously, the guy's electric bill went from $550 in January to $225 in February? That's astounding...NOT. I used a third less gas in February than in January, and I didn't change a thing. January '14 was one of the coldest months on record.

George, Indiana is a bit far north for heat pumps. But I wouldn't universally condemn them. They beat the snot out of resistance heat, regardless of what you think. And in a winter like this one where propane prices went through the roof, I'd say they match or beat the cost of propane heat.

Now, part of the problem with heat pumps is that people refuse to let them do their work. They don't like the cool air blowing on them, so they constantly jiggle the heat up and kick on the aux heaters. You gotta leave the thermostat more or less alone. And if you have a programmable thermostat, you need one made for heat pumps as most will cause the aux heat to be used unnecessarily.

I have a friend with a quite large new home heated by a ground water heat pump. He loves it, which is good considering what it cost him. I don't care for heat pumps myself, but down south where you absolutely need A/C, heat pumps are a pretty good choice.

George is your friend's Heat Pump a split system or a package unit? If it's a package unit where the evaporator and condensor are both located outside and the air is pumped in, he might want to ensure that the duct going into the house is well insulated. As wind acts upon it, it cools the air entering the house. He may also want to get his system looked at. Any number of things can cause it to require constantly being on the resistance coils, even in milder temps.

massey,
FYI, just the facts. I have 500 sq ft more than the other two homes. One is my son's home the other a 78 year old man.

I'm giving you actual numbers. Call it a vendetta against heat pumps if you want. Do you want me to give you the name and number of the 78 year old man who is happy he turned his off?

Why can't you believe anything I say? I can give you the man who has a HAVC business where I live. He will tell you the same thing. Air to air's don't work in sub zero and below freezing temps.

Massey, what kind of vendetta do you seem to have against me? I'm telling the truth. Can't you handle the truth?

George

A heat pump will heat for a 1/3 the cost of electric resistance heat. Our H P does good down to about 20F after that LP kicks on. Best of both worlds.used 300 gal LP. This winter. SE Il. 1320 sq ft. Last winter just used gas for 10 days. I would get another one. Cost 3500 to put on top of gas furnace.

Here we go again! You need to be clear that you are talking about air source. Air source is only recommended to be used down to temps of about 20 degrees before switching to a backup. After that their efficiency falls off. The installer should know that. I am aware of several installations here in central Minnesota that are used in that way with excellent results. They are used to provide very efficient air conditioning and heat on warmer days while a backup system is used for colder days. Is that cost effective? Don’t know, but the owners like the arrangement.
To condemn all geothermal when you are only presenting Air Source facts is unfair. As I have stated in earlier posts I heat a 5000 square foot house with ground source heat Pump. This past February was my most expensive month ever and my heat pump cost $110.10 in energy. It normally runs $50/60 a month. I do have a backup system, but it has been turned off for the past 10 years. Have never needed it.
I did have three independent heat loss calculations done on my home and based on those numbers the pay back for the additional Geo costs were less than 5 years compared to propane, oil or electric baseboard. My pump has been in operation for 13 years with no problems. A neighbor has had his for 28 years with no problems. The person that installed my system installs about 25 units a year and I just talked to him. He has never had to replace a unit. The main moving part is the compressor which is easy to replace if needed. No worse than a commercial refrigerator.
Geothermal correctly installed and used is very cost effective and I wouldn’t have anything else.

Sounds like a pickup truck MPG thread!

I fail to see how a properly sized (for your area, air-to-air or ground source in colder climes)and properly installed heat pump can have WORSE efficiency than electric resistance heat.

Of course, the "facts" revealed in friendly banter at the local coffee shop, with NO real/true numbers win out, all the time!

Bob,
Why are you the only one on YT sees that a heat pump doesn't work in all places? 45 years ago I was a heating and air mechanic for Bethleham steel Burns Harbor, In. I worked on large furnaces, boilers 100 hp chillers. and air conditioners. The man who works on them where I live agrees with you.

Where I live, when you need them the most, sub zero temps, they don't work. If you try to use them they end up costing you more.

The temps in my area are getting in the 30 to 50. Heat pumps should work. I'll post back next month to see how much my 78 year old friend saves switching back to the heat pump mode. He definately learned that heat pumps aren't as great as most people think.

I'm sure they would work great if your temps never got below freezing. Some say they will work great if the temps don't go below 40.
George
Disadvantage of electric heat pumps

It is what I do to stay away from the house when my wife starts writing a list of chores. I actually do more refrigeration and ice machines at restaurants, conviences store (most of my customers) & a couple supermarkets. Heat pumps aren't that bad here in West Tenn, but they need a good method for heating when it is real cold, like a gas pack. The irony is that my house has a heat pump with electric coils, but I don't care. I heat with a wood stove, which is very cheap. The fan motor is a shaded pole 120v motor and the gas & oil for the saw is all my heat cost this year. My wife, Melinda, insist on an 80 degree temp, which I would never pay electric or gas to heat that hot, but for a few extra pieces of wood or splitting them a bit smaller, I get a happy enough wife. If your friend wants to heat with wood, he best act quick, as external_link is looking to harrass us, next.

George, you really need to know the source of your information when you post "facts" from the web. It turns out that the article you posted from ehow.com was not anonymous and in fact the author's bio is posted on ehow.

"I_____ D_____ is a freelance writer and musician living in Portland, Ore. He has over five years experience as a professional writer and has been published on various online outlets. He holds a degree in creative writing from the University of Michigan."

Creative writing indeed!

There are quite a few HVAC guys here; I tend to give them a little more credibility with respect to heat pumps than an unemployed hipster in Portland.

(quoted from post at 06:18:03 03/28/14)
Why are you the only one on YT sees that a heat pump doesn't work in all places?
Where I live, when you need them the most, sub zero temps, they don't work. If you try to use them they end up costing you more.

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It's like anything else, you have to know how to use it properly. I can only relate my personal experience for what it's worth. We have an oil fired hot water heat system. Put in A/C unit and ducts when we bought the place (2900 sq. ft. story and a half). Lived with that arrangement for about 5 yrs. as heating oil prices continued to skyrocket. We took out a perfectly good unit (was able to sell it to get some $$ back) and replaced it with a heat pump. Now when it stays above about 30 we leave it in normal mode where the pump runs and if it can't keep up the oil burner kicks on... rarely does. When it turns colder we switch it over to "emergency" heat, that turns off the heat pump, but the inside fan runs, and the oil burner runs for heat. I can say since we made the switch our oil use has been cut dramatically. Unfortunately with heating oil now over $4 a gallon the bill is about the same, I shudder to think what we'd be paying if we didn't have the heat pump.

We had a ground source geo-thermal system in a house we built in 1992. That was the best, most efficient and cheapest heating/cooling system I've ever experienced and would have it again if we got to the point of building again. So, sir, with all respect, your friend who poo-poos geo-thermal is full of cr@p.

I recently got a "toy" that measures air temp and humidity. It's a professional tool that was in a box of tools I bought at an auction from a contractor that was selling out. I measured the air temp coming out of the ducts with just the heat pump running. It was about 85 at peak and 80 running over time. House air temp was at 68. Interestingly the humidity of that air was quite a bit less than the ambient air in the house. So yes, it feels "cold" but wasn't really, it's just cooler than your body temperature. Run long enough the house would heat up probably by ten degrees or more, just would take longer than the oil burner would heat it up.

Bob,
both my son's and friends have split systems. Only seen packaged systems on mobile homes in Florida.

I don't get it, some people are questioning my son's and friends figures.

Must be something in the cool-aid they are drinking.

george

You STILL never said(answered) what Sq.Footage you heat and what temp you maintain in all of it.Like others have said you are BIAS.

AGREED!!!!

The new geo"s available now work even
better! I have a 2012 geo closed loop ground system, in a
well built/insulated new home. We began using it
in Dec. 2012. This heating season, I have used
less than 30 gallons of propane using gas
fireplace and auxiliary heat use.....my area had
50 plus days of below zero weather, very few sun
days, lots of wind.

I have a 300 gallon propane tank that I put in 250
gallons in December, 2012.....today, it is 35%
full. My propane supplier told me he delivers
propane on ave. once every 3 years to his geo-
customers.

Tim

His heat pump wouldn't cost more than electric to run. Once the strips come on when the COP gets low its just an electric heater, no worse no better. He'll laugh all the way to the bank in the shoulder seasons and on warmer winter days.

I live about 150 miles north of George and have 2,800 square foot house that I heat with wood,LP gas and base board electric heat. My jan.& Feb. bills were Electric Jan.$340.oo and Feb $298.00. I burnt 20 Gallons of LP $68.40( $3.42 GAL.) and 1 cord of wood $165.00 ( going price around here but I cut my owen). Thats a total $866.40. The includes that we cook with electric, electric water heater,electric drier and two refrigerators. I built the house and it is well insulated ( we keep the house 70-72 degrees). Daughter has a house in Fishers,IN. about the same size as ours and she has heat pump with electric and she won't tell us what her bill is all she says is her bill is a lot lot higher than ours and keeps her huose at 68 degrees max.

Here is proof of what I've been saying. Sure some of you won't believe it.

When used for heating a building on a mild day, for example 10 °C, a typical air-source heat pump (ASHP) has a COP of 3 to 4, whereas an electrical resistance heater has a COP of 1.0. That is, one joule of electrical energy will cause a resistance heater to produce only one joule of useful heat, while under ideal conditions, one joule of electrical energy can cause a heat pump to move much more than one joule of heat from a cooler place to a warmer place. Note that an air source heat pump is more efficient in hotter climates than cooler ones, so when the weather is much warmer the unit will perform with a higher COP (as it has less work to do). Conversely in extreme cold weather the COP approaches 1. Thus when there is a wide temperature differential between the hot and cold reservoirs, the COP is lower (worse).
SOURCE: Heat pump wikepedia

Massey,
I think you are biased against me. This is the last time I will respond to you. Hope you will do the same. My brick home is over 2200 ft, with basement, plus a 24x24 attached garage which is not figured in to the 2200. I keep the finished garage at 50 to melt the snow and keep garage dry. My Anderson casements in garage are opened a crack open for drying purposes. Basement says around 50 in winter without any heat. I only use basement for washer/dryer, pool table, bowling alley, pin ball, storage, old gas furnace which is air handler for A/C. Each room upstairs has it own baseboard heater. My house is a 3 bedroom, 2 bath. I keep the rooms I don't use at 60 unless grandkids come over. The other rooms I keep at a comfortable temp. I like the master bedroom at 65. So each room has it's own temp.

Older people with heart problems like much warmer temps. That's why the man with a geo hates his unit. 85 degrees coming out of a register has a chill factor he doesn't like.

So, you can understand. If I use $223 worth of electricity, my friend uses $225 of electricity for the same period of time, we are 3 miles apart, we are using about the same number of Therms to heat our places, even though his house is smaller and is a double wide trailer.

The month before, we had record setting low temps, my electric bill was only $90 more. His electric bill was double with the heat pump running.

Please read the second post above. I will still stand on what I said, where I live, AIR TO AIR HEAT PUMPS DON'T WORK WHEN YOU NEED THEM THE MOST IN SUB ZERO TEMPS. The article will tell you the same thing.

I also question the accuracy of the COP and SEER numbers. 14 years ago I bought a new A/C it has SEER rating of 12, about the best at the time. The selling point for me was it had an expansion valve and pressure limit switches. However, the 12 SEER didn't factor in the blower motor. Kind of like Briggs over rating the horsepower rating.

No disrespect intended, but this is the very last time I will ever respond to your posts. So hammer away at me if it makes you feel like a better person.
George

Kind of thin skinned aren't we,all I ask was how how many Sq.Feet and temp kept.I learned a long time ago to never tell a renter how much it would cost to heat or AC a house.No two people are the same and you can't compare two different everythings and come up with a correct answer.And you were, a house vs dw trailer.

(quoted from post at 13:40:46 03/28/14) Massey,
AIR TO AIR HEAT PUMPS DON'T WORK WHEN YOU NEED THEM THE MOST IN SUB ZERO TEMPS.

Click to expand...

Common knowledge. :roll: The problem again is purely operator error. Program the HP to run ONLY at the temps that it can handle as far as efficiency and they are a wonderful money saver. Anyone that runs one in sub zero temps is foolish. Take some responsibility to learn the limitations of the system and live with it.

George, I don't know the reliability of your source, but it seems to agree with what everyone else is trying to tell you.

"...on a mild day, for example 10 °C, a typical air-source heat pump (ASHP) has a COP of 3 to 4..."

Translation: Under the conditions which heat pumps are designed to operate, they beat the snot out of resistance heat.

"...in extreme cold weather the COP approaches 1."

Translation: Under the worst possible conditions, heat pumps perform no more nor no less efficiently than resistance heat.

Excuse me if I misunderstand your point, but I think you've been trying to say that when it gets really cold resistance heat is cheaper to operate than a heat pump, and that's just not true. Resistance heat is ridiculously expensive, and I'd never own home heated by it in Michigan. (It does work nicely in our Florida condo, by the way.) Now, if you're trying to say that the total cost of ownership for a heat pump is more expensive than resistance heat, I'd say that depends. It's probably true in very mild climates where you don't need air conditioning and seldom need heat. Southern California is the only place I know like that, and even there nobody uses resistance heat since natural gas is readily available.

MarkB_MI,
The COP may approach one, but does that include the defrost cycles? I think not. Many times, the blower motor isn't factored in to the COP or SEERs. I proved to the 78 year old man that it was cheaper to go straight resistance heat during the sub zero winter months and he saved $250. He is convinced. I really don't care if anyone here is.

Our Indiana temps are back to where he can go use his heat pump. It will be interesting to see how much lower his next month's electric bill is than mine.

There is also proof that using the heat pump in extreme conditions shortens the life of compressor. I could post sources, but then some would say that isn't proof enough for them.

I still say, heat pumps in my area will not beat the snot out of straight resistance heat in sub zero, geo will.

The investment will never pay for itself, if you have a super insulated home. And it only works well in the spring and fall months where I live.

I'm not saying it won't work in Florida or places south of me.

I know of a man who put a heat pump at his lake home. Moisture would come off the lake, causing HP to ice up real fast. Man wasn't very happy. HP was in defrost mode all the time.

I'll post back when next month's bills come out.
George

George, you only convinced your old geezer friend of something he desperately wanted to believe: That he could have warm air coming from his vents without paying extra for it. It's a well-known fact it's easy to convince someone of something they want to believe. This peculiar facet of human nature has been exploited for centuries by con artists, faith healers, Nigerian scammers and other charlatans. Case in point: you've convinced yourself that your resistance heat is economical to operate, when of course it is not.

Now even if I accept your assertion that heat pump COP can go below unity under certain conditions (and I doubt it), any loss of efficiency is more than offset by the higher COP at warmer temperatures. Do you heat your home during more days in 20 to 40 degree temperatures or in zero to 20 degree temperatures? That one's not hard to figure out; there are more days in the year with temperatures in the twenties and thirties than there are days between zero and twenty.

Air to air heat pumps work well when outside air temperatures above 40_F or 5_C. They are not a very good application for areas that spend much time with outdoor air temperatures continuously below freeezing. When air temperatures are below freezing air to air heat pumps need a backup system, like electrical resistance heat. A good air to air heat pump system should automatically shut down when outside air temperatures are too cold and then automatically switch on their backup system. If you friend's system did not do that automatically, then I would believe either something is wrong with his system or someone sold him a wrong system, one intended for a warmer climate. If his system is regularly cycling heat outdoors to defrost the outdoor coils, it sounds like he has the wrong system for his climate.

Geothermal heat pumps are a better application where air temperatures are below freezing for long periods of time. This winter in Minnesota we had over 50 mornings with low temperatures below zero_F and we were continuously below freezing for a 30 day stretch. Air to air heat pumps are not used here except in three season porches that are unheated in the winter. The trade-off with geothermal is much higher installation costs.

Did your friend buy his air to air heat pump from a liscenced contractor? If an HVAC contractor is installing air to air heat exchangers as far north as central Indiana, my opinion is he is cheating his customers. The contractor may be getting a lot of sales by selling uninformed or gullible customers low cost systems that the customers think will do the job, rather than doing the math to quote the higher cost heating systems that his customers really need. That's just my opinion.

Should I switch to Emergency Heat when it gets below 35 degrees outside?

If you have a normal electric heat pump, the answer is no. That would be foolish. A heat pump can still provide heat down to negative 10 degrees. The heat pump and the electric back-up heat work together - automatically. Now, if you have oil or gas back-up, then you have the option to switch to back-up heat (Emergency Heat) for more comfort. But it may be more efficient not to use it. Courtesy Hannaberry HVAC