- Thread starter Geo-TH,In
- Start date
Welding man
Well-known Member
- Location
- West Virginia
My wife works for Volvo,building Class 8 trucks. They are building a lot of Natural gas Semis now. Volvo and Cummins both have Nat gas engines now.
charles craig
Member
the LACMTA has had CNG for over 20 years. retired all their diesel buses sometime around 15 yrs ago.
Nancy Howell
Well-known Member
Some of the Dallas buses are CNG, but not all.
Steve@Advance
Well-known Member
Dallas tried NG police cars. Cops didn't like them, short fuel range and not as much fun chasing people, too slow.
Russ from MN
Well-known Member
- Location
- Bemidji MN
Very clean, short range. Super Shuttle used to and probably still does use Dodge vans on CNG in Phoenix.
It's a politically correct thing. ADOT did a bunch of conversions that were just terrible - so they bought factory CNG units that weren't any better.
However, when we did the emissions tests those vehicles were polluting just as bad as the gas and Diesel engines. There is no smell or black smoke, but the engines are polluting just the same.
I watch the LPG engine on the floor scrubbers in stores; people think that they are clean burning because they don't smell and don't smoke, but they are polluting as much or more than a regular gas engine.
However, when we did the emissions tests those vehicles were polluting just as bad as the gas and Diesel engines. There is no smell or black smoke, but the engines are polluting just the same.
I watch the LPG engine on the floor scrubbers in stores; people think that they are clean burning because they don't smell and don't smoke, but they are polluting as much or more than a regular gas engine.
Fawteen
Well-known Member
- Location
- Downeast Maine
Really? What, specifically, are the pollutants involved?
Working many years ago at a LP gas company I attended a Century LP carburation school, and LP gas is used as a GAS by vehicles, it is stored as a liquid then piped to the vaporiser which turns it into a gas and then burned as a LP gas/air mixture in the engine. It is high octane (110) and does burn very clean with less Carbon Monoxide. This is why you see LP powered rigs used indoors. The oil also stays much cleaner during operation with LP gas. Engines last much longer.
OP
OP
Geo-TH,In
Well-known Member
My point is, at STP, standard temp and pressure, propane is a gas, not a liquid. It's only a liquid under pressure.
Could it be possible to modify a natural gas molecule with something else to make it possible under pressure to turn to a liquid.
Hydrogen is a gas, under pressure it becomes a liquid. Most gasses are that way.
Could it be possible to modify a natural gas molecule with something else to make it possible under pressure to turn to a liquid.
Hydrogen is a gas, under pressure it becomes a liquid. Most gasses are that way.
John-George,Propane is bought-sold-stored and burnt as a liguid until it is run thru a vaporizer,but in some cases it is burnt as a liquid.Because as a gas,it can and will freeze the tank and shut whatever is using it down.It doesn't appear you have seen 1000G tanks freeze up and not be able to get any GAS from them. An engine will not run very long under load on vapor,but will run until the tank is dry on liquid thru a vaporizer.
Keith Williams
Member
- Location
- Wellsville, Ohio
George,
I looked at
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compressed_natural_gas
Methane (CH4) needs very low temps to become a liquid.
C2 - Ethane
C3 - Propane
C4 - Butane
all can be made into a liquid much easier.
There are discussions too in the Wiki article about other ways to compress methane further.
HTH
Keith
I looked at
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compressed_natural_gas
Methane (CH4) needs very low temps to become a liquid.
C2 - Ethane
C3 - Propane
C4 - Butane
all can be made into a liquid much easier.
There are discussions too in the Wiki article about other ways to compress methane further.
HTH
Keith
OP
OP
Geo-TH,In
Well-known Member
massey333,
I was once a heating and air mechanic. Freon in a bottle, like propane, is under pressure, the liquid is at the bottom of tank, gas is above the liquid in the tank. When any liquid turns to a gas, heat energy is required. It's called heat of vaporization. R22A is made using propane and is a substitute refrigerant for 22. Yes, I've seen a freon tank and LP tank freeze up when you are changing a liquid to a gas. The regulator on top of your lp tank is using the gas from the top of the LP tank.
The vaporizer usually has hot water from the engine to convert propane from a liquid state to a gas state. So we may be just looking at the same thing differently. There is no liquid propane inside the cylinder.
I have seen carbs freeze up when gasoline change from a liquid to a gas.
I had an engine lock up on me, lost spark, injectors kept dumping raw gas in engine. Usually you don't burn a liquid, except for a diesel and you use injectors.
All the LP tractors/trucks I've seen the liquid must be changed to a gas before it can burn.
george
I was once a heating and air mechanic. Freon in a bottle, like propane, is under pressure, the liquid is at the bottom of tank, gas is above the liquid in the tank. When any liquid turns to a gas, heat energy is required. It's called heat of vaporization. R22A is made using propane and is a substitute refrigerant for 22. Yes, I've seen a freon tank and LP tank freeze up when you are changing a liquid to a gas. The regulator on top of your lp tank is using the gas from the top of the LP tank.
The vaporizer usually has hot water from the engine to convert propane from a liquid state to a gas state. So we may be just looking at the same thing differently. There is no liquid propane inside the cylinder.
I have seen carbs freeze up when gasoline change from a liquid to a gas.
I had an engine lock up on me, lost spark, injectors kept dumping raw gas in engine. Usually you don't burn a liquid, except for a diesel and you use injectors.
All the LP tractors/trucks I've seen the liquid must be changed to a gas before it can burn.
george
Don't remember what the chemicals were, but same as regular gas engines without smell or smoke.
We had units in the shops for months trying to get them to pass the state emissions test - but Governor's office didn't want us to release that information to the public.
Governor's security department called me and said that they needed keys to the motor pool lot so they could fuel the Governor's newly converted Lincoln at our CNG pump. I told them that if they had called me first I would have told them not to do that. They replied that it was a "done deal".
I fought giving them a key for awhile so the could fuel the car for PC reasons. They said that they had to fuel the car at 11:00 P.M. after they took the Governor home. [I found out later that they were taking him home from his mistress's apartment].
Those idiots couldn't figure out how to fuel the car even after I demonstrated the procedure to them. After about 2-3 weeks of the Lincoln stalling in the middle of the intersection (which I warned them about), they quit using the CNG pump and just fueled with regular gas.
But they had a couple weeks of PR that they were doing something to help the environment, so nobody cared after that.
We had units in the shops for months trying to get them to pass the state emissions test - but Governor's office didn't want us to release that information to the public.
Governor's security department called me and said that they needed keys to the motor pool lot so they could fuel the Governor's newly converted Lincoln at our CNG pump. I told them that if they had called me first I would have told them not to do that. They replied that it was a "done deal".
I fought giving them a key for awhile so the could fuel the car for PC reasons. They said that they had to fuel the car at 11:00 P.M. after they took the Governor home. [I found out later that they were taking him home from his mistress's apartment].
Those idiots couldn't figure out how to fuel the car even after I demonstrated the procedure to them. After about 2-3 weeks of the Lincoln stalling in the middle of the intersection (which I warned them about), they quit using the CNG pump and just fueled with regular gas.
But they had a couple weeks of PR that they were doing something to help the environment, so nobody cared after that.
Had a new Peterbuilt CNG semi tractor stuck on our lot a work for about a week, some sensor or relay went bad and it died on the spot. No one in the area knew how to work on it (at least no one Peterbuilt was willing to pay the warranty claim to) They ended up towing it out of there.
OP
OP
Geo-TH,In
Well-known Member
I was told that the US is behind many other countries when it comes to CNG busses, trucks. A guy told me in Argentian a truck can stop at a gas station, connect a hose and gas up.
I think T Boone Picket said if all are big rigs ran on CNG we wouldn't haven't to import oil from places that hate us. The way I see it, when our money leaves this country it's the same as sending our jobs overseas.
I'm sure, it's like everything else, it will take time to work the bugs out, time to train people to repair them.
I think T Boone Picket said if all are big rigs ran on CNG we wouldn't haven't to import oil from places that hate us. The way I see it, when our money leaves this country it's the same as sending our jobs overseas.
I'm sure, it's like everything else, it will take time to work the bugs out, time to train people to repair them.
WantACaseLASomeday
Member
We (the US) ships an awful lot of natural gas by sea, on huge tanker ships. The tanks are shaped like a ball for efficient storage/transport of the super cold liquid.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LNG_carrier
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LNG_carrier
Handyman
Member
- Location
- Bonneville County, Idaho
Here in Idaho Falls, Idaho a company has built a LNG fueling station at exit 113 on I15. currently its being used by the INL and a couple of local businesses.
fixerupper
Well-known Member
Propane is a liquid with a very low boiling point. If refrigerated to a low enough temp it will quit boiling and vaporizing in an open container. Water turns to a gas when it's heated to above it's boiling point. Jim
Owen Aaland
Well-known Member
At atmospheric pressures propane will boil at about -42°. If contained in a pressure vessel the pressure will rise with the temperature until about 208° F at which point the pressure will increase very rapidly with a rise in temperature. The relief valve on most tanks is set at 250 psi which is good for about 130°.
All internal combustion engines run on vaporized fuel whether it is diesel, gasoline, propane, or natural gas. Part of the job of the diesel fuel injector is to atomize the fuel as it enters the cylinder. Gasoline or liquid propane injectors perform the same function.
Natural gas engines can use either compressed natural gas (CNG) or liquid natural gas (LNG). CNG systems use much higher pressures than LPG. LNG systems can store much more fuel in the same size tank as compared to CNG but the fuel tanks must be well insulated since the fuel is cooled to -260° F to condense it to liquid form. The LNG system uses the cooling affect of boiling LNG to maintain the temperature. As a result there is always some fuel loss with a LNG system.
All internal combustion engines run on vaporized fuel whether it is diesel, gasoline, propane, or natural gas. Part of the job of the diesel fuel injector is to atomize the fuel as it enters the cylinder. Gasoline or liquid propane injectors perform the same function.
Natural gas engines can use either compressed natural gas (CNG) or liquid natural gas (LNG). CNG systems use much higher pressures than LPG. LNG systems can store much more fuel in the same size tank as compared to CNG but the fuel tanks must be well insulated since the fuel is cooled to -260° F to condense it to liquid form. The LNG system uses the cooling affect of boiling LNG to maintain the temperature. As a result there is always some fuel loss with a LNG system.
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