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Turbos revisited.

O

oldtanker

Well-known Member
My son and I drove to the south side of St Paul this morning. About a 3 hour trip, over 2 on I94, one way. Because my son was driving I watched pretty close. I did not keep count and should have but every piece of construction equipment, new and used that I saw the exhaust was uncovered. Same thing with the 6 or so new and used farm tractors. So I guess a turbo spinning up from vacuum across the stack is a regional thing. :shock:

Rick
 
I would cover the exhaust for the same reason I put rain caps on everything, to keep the wet out.
 
I've noticed the same thing. My guess is the guys operating them didn't pay for them nor pay to have them fixed. There is a old equipment dealer local that keeps cans over all the stacks and some of those machines have been there for close to 30 yrs. He's got a couple cable operated dozers amoung the collection.
If anyone attends the NYS Fair there's a good chance you went right past them.
 
There used to be layers of roasted duct tape glue on the exhaust pipes on the combines we used to run on the harvest. The exhaust would be duct taped after they were loaded on the trailers and when they were unloaded the young drivers would forget to untape the pipe before they fired them up to unload. The tape never caused a problem with the combine starting up but I don't know if having the tape there saved the turboes or not. We never lost a turbo on 8 combines that had 6000 hours each when they were traded off. CIH 2388's Jim
 
An engineer at the JD Waterloo tractor plant told me that they studied the issue in the late 1970s. They had dealers complaining about JD shipping the tractors without the exhaust being covered.

They had to get a direct cross wind of over 150 MPH to make the turbo spin on a tractor with a factory exhaust on it.

They determined it was a hear say/rummor issue not a factual one.

He told me that same person must have started it as the rice at wedding killing birds.
 
Well you do what you want, when you have to replace a turbo
you'll say man I wish I took that extra minute it took to cover it,
instead of paying the repair bill, I have first hand experience
where I work, after the first one you should learn.
 
Well I cover them when I load whether they are turboed or not . If it rains with the stack open you can hydra-lock a cylinder with water. If it is in freezing weather it can freeze, and bust a sleeve/block or bend rods or valves when they are turned over to start. It is just cheaper for me to tape them year around. I don't care if it is a wives tale about spinning the turbo.
I also check antifreeze for freeze point in cold weather. Especially when coming from south to north in cold weather.
 
(quoted from post at 19:48:09 03/22/14) My son and I drove to the south side of St Paul this morning. About a 3 hour trip, over 2 on I94, one way. Because my son was driving I watched pretty close. I did not keep count and should have but every piece of construction equipment, new and used that I saw the exhaust was uncovered. Same thing with the 6 or so new and used farm tractors. So I guess a turbo spinning up from vacuum across the stack is a regional thing. :shock:

Rick
Click to expand...
have read all the threads on this spinning topic & so far it is only speculation/opinion. No proof has been put forth. Someone cut a window in the turbo housing, seal window with glass, drive down the highway & show it still or spinning. Until someone does it is just speculation!!
 
How many folks let their turbo'd equipment idle a few minutes before shutting it down to allow the turbo to cool down? I do. Do I need to? Beats me, but I had a '76 International 2070 Fleetstar with a Cummins and a '78 International 4070 cabover with a Cat, both with steel plates mounted on the dashboards from the factory telling me to do so, so I did. Not only did I do it with both of them, I always have with every turbo's piece of equipment that I've owned since. Do I still need to do so? Hasn't hurt a thing for my doing so yet, so I'm not about to stop doing so. But do I really need to do it? Maybe, maybe not, but who gets hurt by it if I do it to my equipment?

Tonight I had to go to a fundraiser for a fella that I know that has developed some medical issues. Tonight on the way back I stopped at a car wash to wash the pickup I was driving. And it happened. Right there in the middle of the state highway right by some train tracks was the biggest rat that I have seen in years, right in the middle of the road. I thought it was a skunk, so I swerved to miss it, but when I got up by it, a rat. Thing was huge. Well fed. Is a feed store a baseball's throw up the road. Figure is from there, I suppose. Bigger than any field rat I ever seen or used for target practice. I should have caught that thing and tossed it into the bed, then tomorrow flung it out into a field and used it for target practice. I haven't seen a rat like that since I lived in Chicago decades ago. Would have given a barn cat a good go for it.

Mark
 

All I know is at the Waterloo plant JD furnished and insisted that a plug was installed in muffler or extension on turbo'd engines before tractor was hauled out their gates. They also inspected that tractor was chained to DOT spec's. This was on the 40 series. As far as seeing the plug it would be near impossible for a passer by. BTDT
PS: the plug was RED
 
JMS, didn't see any that seemed to be running. Lot of it was new equipment.

504 and others, if it does indeed create a [b:b0e2f8d375]vacuum[/b:b0e2f8d375] with air flowing over the open exhaust why would that be an issue unless it was going to set on the trailer not moving for a while?

Jerry I was only paying attention to equipment that was large enough that you would think they were turboed.

G1355, well you know how well we ALL listen to your freely given, unsolicited, expert advice.

Mark, we were taught that in the Army with the explanation that on cold start up if the engine was run fast enough to spin up the turbo before oil pressure built up it could burn up the bearings. On cool down we were told that because of the RPM's a turbo can spin they needed to spool down so they didn't get oil starved while still spinning. The last several years they no longer told us that and cited improvements to the turbo did away with the need. Like when they upgraded the M60A1's to RISE (reliability improved selected equipment) and the newer trucks. Then we were told that each turbo has small reservoirs that held a little oil for the bearings.

Rick
 
Oldtanker, you've beat this like a dead horse for three days
now. You must be right, you've talked to twenty some year old
master super special diesel mechanics and you and your son
drove three hours(2 hours one way?) counting them. Now that
everyone knows your right just let it go!
 
You"re right that none of the new equipment is shipped with the
exhaust covered. They also don"t cover the wind shields, but
we occasionally get machines in that have a pile of glass in the
cab and no windshield.
 
Went to an auction at a Peanut Elevator in eastern
NC one time they had some HUGE rats and they were just lying around not scared of anything,would have thought they would have at least shot a few with rat shot.I didn't eat Peanuts for quite awhile after that just didn't have the taste for them.
 
I don't understand how a vacuum makes the turbo spin. You still need to have air passing through to make the fins rotate. Unless you have a massive exhaust/intake leak you can't get air to flow through the system.

I'd be much more worried about rain than wind.
 
(quoted from post at 04:20:17 03/23/14) Oldtanker, you've beat this like a dead horse for three days
now. You must be right, you've talked to twenty some year old
master super special diesel mechanics and you and your son
drove three hours(2 hours one way?) counting them. Now that
everyone knows your right just let it go!
Click to expand...

While I could be rude and hide as a guest I won't. I just pointed out that on our little road trip yesterday what I saw because I thought others might be interested. I also on another thread reported what I got from 2 younger men who are both certified diesel mechanics. One with about 35 years old with 14 years experience sense finishing school and the other 28 with 8 years after becoming certified. I'd never heard about a turbo spinning from air moving over the stack so I called the 2 best diesel mechanics I know. One works at a dealer and the other at his dad's shop. I called them because I know them and trust them. That's opposed to you who I don't know and certainly wouldn't trust. Hey if you don't like something don't read it!

Rick
 

Under just the right conditions a flow of air or water can create a suction in a tube that it passes by. Our fire Dept used to have two small pumps that you primed by pulling a lever over the exhaust outlet. It redirected the flow into a pipe that had a tube from the pump volute and it would suck air out of the pump and suck the water out. It was kind of slow, definitely would have to be a very small turbo for it to spin it.
 
(quoted from post at 13:07:40 03/23/14)
Under just the right conditions a flow of air or water can create a suction in a tube that it passes by. Our fire Dept used to have two small pumps that you primed by pulling a lever over the exhaust outlet. It redirected the flow into a pipe that had a tube from the pump volute and it would suck air out of the pump and suck the water out. It was kind of slow, definitely would have to be a very small turbo for it to spin it.
Click to expand...

Thats the Venturi effect (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venturi_effect) which wouldnt apply to a dead end tube like an exhaust stack. Just saying...

I agree with JMOR, if this was a real problem, someone would have cut a hole in a turbo and put a glass section on it and videoed the "problem". There are tons of good turbos in the junk yard (you dont need the whole tractor) and even my cat has a cell phone with video capibility. To me, there is a reason no proof has been put forth.
 
(quoted from post at 11:07:40 03/23/14)
Under just the right conditions a flow of air or water can create a suction in a tube that it passes by. Our fire Dept used to have two small pumps that you primed by pulling a lever over the exhaust outlet. It redirected the flow into a pipe that had a tube from the pump volute and it would suck air out of the pump and suck the water out. It was kind of slow, definitely would have to be a very small turbo for it to spin it.
Click to expand...

I don't really know the math involved but you would have to make enough air flow over the stack to make enough vacuum to suck air past the compressor side of the turbo. Then through an open valve,, through another open valve in the same cylinder, past the impeller and the rest of the air induction and through the air filter with enough volume and velocity to actually spin it up. Have to keep in mind that neither valve will be all the way open too. At least that's what I think.

Rick
 
(quoted from post at 11:17:35 03/23/14)
(quoted from post at 13:07:40 03/23/14)
Under just the right conditions a flow of air or water can create a suction in a tube that it passes by. Our fire Dept used to have two small pumps that you primed by pulling a lever over the exhaust outlet. It redirected the flow into a pipe that had a tube from the pump volute and it would suck air out of the pump and suck the water out. It was kind of slow, definitely would have to be a very small turbo for it to spin it.
Click to expand...

Thats the Venturi effect (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venturi_effect) which wouldnt apply to a dead end tube like an exhaust stack. Just saying...

I agree with JMOR, if this was a real problem, someone would have cut a hole in a turbo and put a glass section on it and videoed the "problem". There are tons of good turbos in the junk yard (you dont need the whole tractor) and even my cat has a cell phone with video capibility. To me, there is a reason no proof has been put forth.
Click to expand...

Yes Rich, I used to install and maintain venturi chem feeders, and that is why I used the words "under the right conditions" yes, a flow past an opening can and will produce suction but suction is only half of the picture. You need supply also, and it would have to be in proportion to the working range of the turbo.
 
I think I will believe what the folks who designed the machine recommend!

From the 2007 New Holland TD80D and TD95 Owners Manual, Page 3-4:
Transporting the Tractor

IMPORTANT: On models equipped with the turbocharger, cover the exhaust outlet to prevent the turbocharger rotating in the wind, resulting in possible damage to the bearings. The turbocharger turbine must be prevented from rotatingfreely with the engine off, as the shaft bearingswill not be lubricated.
 
JMOR,

See my note above. It's is not direct proof of the phenomena but while I have experience with it from work in my previous life, and I know it to be true, I can't supply the proof you would like. However, it is quite obvious the folks at New Holland think it is important enough to issue an "important" statement in the owner's manual.
 
(quoted from post at 12:56:19 03/23/14) JMOR,

See my note above. It's is not direct proof of the phenomena but while I have experience with it from work in my previous life, and I know it to be true, I can't supply the proof you would like. However, it is quite obvious the folks at New Holland think it is important enough to issue an "important" statement in the owner's manual.
Click to expand...

Jerry, that's most interesting. One of the tractors being hauled down the road yesterday was a articulating steer, 4X4 that had to of come out of the Fargo CaseIH plant and was heading east on I94. Big sucker. Blue, said Hew Holland on it. Had a rain flapper on it but no visible tape of other type of plug. That doesn't mean that there wasn't some type of insert. I did a quick internet search and could find nothing on it.

I'm thinking that it could be like the .50 machine gun and the Army. When going through basic and again in advanced training we were told you couldn't shoot .50 at troops under the Geneva convention. Also got told you couldn't shoot at paratroopers. Yet the tank gunnery manual gave the lead factors for engaging paratroopers with the .50. What we were later told was those rules were told to Patton's troops when he was running low on .50 ammo for close air defense. He wanted to conserve ammo so had that story put out knowing he had plenty of .30 ammo to use on troops. The real thing is you are not allowed to fire on aircrews baling out of disabled aircraft. That rumor lasted until sometime in the 80's. So a rumor about a turbo could last a long time too I guess, weather it be to plug or not to plug. Next time I'm in Fargo I'll see just how much stuff is getting hauled out of the CaseIH plant and try to see if there is an insert type plug.

Rick
 
(quoted from post at 15:49:19 03/23/14)

Jerry, that's most interesting. One of the tractors being hauled down the road yesterday Had a rain flapper on it but no visible tape of other type of plug. That doesn't mean that there wasn't some type of insert.Rick
Click to expand...

Rick
I will guarantee you if tractors hauled out of JD's Waterloo plant today had the same exhaust plug that they did when I hauled them there is no way you could detect(SEE) the plug driving in the opposite direction in the opposing lane!!!!!!!!!!
Jim
 
Read Jerry/,mt post, it says right in the manual to cover the
exhaust to prevent turbo from spinning and not being
lubricated, I've talked to plenty of mechanics around here and
they also say to cover it. Do whatever you want but don't
complain when you gotta fix, and you can think I'm the
dumbest sob in the world that's up to you, but there's others
that agree with me.
 
(quoted from post at 14:15:09 03/23/14)
(quoted from post at 11:17:35 03/23/14)
(quoted from post at 13:07:40 03/23/14)
Under just the right conditions a flow of air or water can create a suction in a tube that it passes by. Our fire Dept used to have two small pumps that you primed by pulling a lever over the exhaust outlet. It redirected the flow into a pipe that had a tube from the pump volute and it would suck air out of the pump and suck the water out. It was kind of slow, definitely would have to be a very small turbo for it to spin it.
Click to expand...

Thats the Venturi effect (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venturi_effect) which wouldnt apply to a dead end tube like an exhaust stack. Just saying...

I agree with JMOR, if this was a real problem, someone would have cut a hole in a turbo and put a glass section on it and videoed the "problem". There are tons of good turbos in the junk yard (you dont need the whole tractor) and even my cat has a cell phone with video capibility. To me, there is a reason no proof has been put forth.
Click to expand...

Yes Rich, I used to install and maintain venturi chem feeders, and that is why I used the words "under the right conditions" yes, a flow past an opening can and will produce suction but suction is only half of the picture. You need supply also, and it would have to be in proportion to the working range of the turbo.
Click to expand...

So am I reading your post correct in that you will be posting a video as proof?

Thanks, looking forward to seeing it.
 
And the tractor was probebly facing backwards so it wouldn't
of mattered, then there's no way for air to get in if there's a rain
cap, and if it was facing forward I'm sure there was clear
packing tape or something that you couldn't see, it doesn't
take much to hold it down.
 
(quoted from post at 15:52:35 03/23/14)
(quoted from post at 14:15:09 03/23/14)
(quoted from post at 11:17:35 03/23/14)
(quoted from post at 13:07:40 03/23/14)
Under just the right conditions a flow of air or water can create a suction in a tube that it passes by. Our fire Dept used to have two small pumps that you primed by pulling a lever over the exhaust outlet. It redirected the flow into a pipe that had a tube from the pump volute and it would suck air out of the pump and suck the water out. It was kind of slow, definitely would have to be a very small turbo for it to spin it.
Click to expand...

Thats the Venturi effect (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venturi_effect) which wouldnt apply to a dead end tube like an exhaust stack. Just saying...

I agree with JMOR, if this was a real problem, someone would have cut a hole in a turbo and put a glass section on it and videoed the "problem". There are tons of good turbos in the junk yard (you dont need the whole tractor) and even my cat has a cell phone with video capibility. To me, there is a reason no proof has been put forth.
Click to expand...

Yes Rich, I used to install and maintain venturi chem feeders, and that is why I used the words "under the right conditions" yes, a flow past an opening can and will produce suction but suction is only half of the picture. You need supply also, and it would have to be in proportion to the working range of the turbo.
Click to expand...

So am I reading your post correct in that you will be posting a video as proof?

Thanks, looking forward to seeing it.
Click to expand...

Rich, are you responding to my post?
 
(quoted from post at 14:06:42 03/23/14) Read Jerry/,mt post, it says right in the manual to cover the
exhaust to prevent turbo from spinning and not being
lubricated, I've talked to plenty of mechanics around here and
they also say to cover it. Do whatever you want but don't
complain when you gotta fix, and you can think I'm the
dumbest sob in the world that's up to you, but there's others
that agree with me.
Click to expand...


G1355, not picking on ya but if someone thinks yer the "dumbest sob in the world" and others agree with you then you wouldn't be the "dumbest sob" just one of the dumbest!

Rick
 
(quoted from post at 21:39:22 03/23/14)
(quoted from post at 14:06:42 03/23/14) Read Jerry/,mt post, it says right in the manual to cover the
exhaust to prevent turbo from spinning and not being
lubricated, I've talked to plenty of mechanics around here and
they also say to cover it. Do whatever you want but don't
complain when you gotta fix, and you can think I'm the
dumbest sob in the world that's up to you, but there's others
that agree with me.
Click to expand...


G1355, not picking on ya but if someone thinks yer the "dumbest sob in the world" and others agree with you then you wouldn't be the "dumbest sob" just one of the dumbest!

Rick
Click to expand...
think this one is kind of like God. There are believers & non-believers & neither has proof of existence or nonexistence. You just have to have 'faith'.
 
So would the truck have to be moving about 150 or 200 MPH to generate that kind of suction to force air through the engine and air filter to spin the turbo?
 
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