property lines

Big surprise former renter owns property next to me he took part of the line fence out to make easy access for him.have new renter (double what old renter paid and hes not happy losing it either)went to have fence surveyed to be honest instead of guessing between fence points fence is over 3/4 mile long turns out fence is over 6 ft into my property .im not sure put i think neighbor had some surveyed plus with govt payments would have known measurments .question is where do i go now? i like to be nice but were talking a sizeable acreage .

I'm not sure what the question is. If he took out your fence and trees he needs to replace the fence and compensate you for the trees.

He took the fence out in the middle ends of old fence are still there .the problem is the old original fence is wrong

Property line disputes can get pretty nasty. I would find a good attorney that specializes in real estate. I had to do that twice. Hopefully it can be resolved out of court but be prepared, sometimes they don't rule in your favor.

Tear the fence out and put in a new one on the new survey lines ASAP. The longer you wait the better the chance you will lose the affected property. Ask em to split the cost of putting in a new, correct fence.

Here in Ohio sometimes Township Trustees can get these disputes worked out. If that doesn't work then I would consult attorney as Pair-a-dice suggested.

If the old original fence was recognized as the property line, it may still be, even if the survey shows it to be in the wrong place. Ran into this problem when my brother and I sold off some of Dad's farm in Ohio years ago. State laws may vary.

AS a Country Lawyer I get asked those type of questions all the time. You might want to research the common law doctrine of Adverse Posession in your state as well as see if the local Township Trustees get involved as they do in some states. In all the farms I bought and sold the old established fence lines seldom agree with a modern survey and in many jurisdictions old established used and recognized fence lines ripen into the true boundary by laws of Adverse Possession.

My advice, consult a local professional real estate attorney and DO NOT hang your hat on anything said here by lay or even professionals unfamiliar with your states laws. That way you can get a true competent professional legal opinion.

John T Country Lawyer

Exactly. Install new fence on the new survey line ASAP. Get some help and get it all done in a day. Better yet have a commercial crew do it. Don't be there if neighbor shows up and DO NOT TALK TO HIM. Don't even ask for help or pay from neighbor.
Then wait and see what comes crawling out of the woodpile. Most likely just a lot of talk.

Here in WV I had the same problem,only on a smaller scale.When I bought the property we used the fence lines,several years passed and a neighbor told me that the fence was 6 ft on my side.I called a attourney and he told me not to listen to everyones opinion,where ever the surveyor mark falls is where the fence is suppose to be.I started digging around and found all the corner markers,and thats where I moved the fence

jimmy

(quoted from post at 18:50:40 03/22/14) AS a Country Lawyer I get asked those type of questions all the time. You might want to research the common law doctrine of Adverse Posession in your state as well as see if the local Township Trustees get involved as they do in some states. In all the farms I bought and sold the old established fence lines seldom agree with a modern survey and in many jurisdictions old established used and recognized fence lines ripen into the true boundary by laws of Adverse Possession.

My advice, consult a local professional real estate attorney and DO NOT hang your hat on anything said here by lay or even professionals unfamiliar with your states laws. That way you can get a true competent professional legal opinion.

John T Country Lawyer

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Read Johns post again because he is correct, you may not own that land anymore. But then again, you didnt think you owned it before so I guess nothing much has changed other than you [i:c157acafb9]know[/i:c157acafb9] now that you got ripped off so it kinda hurts.

In Wisconsin, Adverse Possession is 20 years. If that fence was up for more than 20 years, you likely dont own what you never knew you didnt own. Here is a link that talks about it some. http://www.wisbar.org/newspublicati...aspx?Volume=83&Issue=3&ArticleID=1926

In any event, see a lawyer. This story is not sounding like it will be cheap or easy for you but I hope Im wrong. Good luck.

I was thinking around here if the fence has been there for 30 or more years that is the line even if it is wrong. Now maybe if its way off that would be another story.

I'm not sure either. I understand the adverse possession laws, but if the fence was the recognized boundary for over 20 years I would think that the fence line was the border. However since the fence line was removed I would think that this would open it up for moving the fence line. I would agree with one of the previous posters, you are not out anything if the fence goes back where it was but you won't gain anything either. If you are on good terms with him I would put it back where it was and stay on good terms, if you don't care then you could pursue moving the fence line.

Just to add even more to the mix lol. Farmer Billy Bob may think just because a fence was in a certain location 20 years that ripened into the boundary because of the common law doctrine of Adverse Posession. HOWEVER that's only a PART of the story, in many jurisdictions Adverse Posession also requires the land use be:

HOSTILE
OPEN
CONTINUOUS
EXCLUSIVE
ADVERSE
NOTORIOUS

And theres a huge well settled body of law that goes into each and every one of those elements, plus some jurisdictions may even require the payment of taxes, plus the cases can be fact sensitive, sooooooooooooo

MORAL OF THE STORY

That's why to get a worthwhile legal opinion the landowner needs to seek a local trained professional real estate attorney who can obtain the facts and then research the specific local laws, as usual there much more to an issue like this then first meets the eye.

John T

If you take this further and loose make sure you get your legal description updated AND make sure your taxes reflect you don't have as much land. If the other guy finds out his taxes go up he might not be in such a hurry to stiff you. Yes I know paying the taxes is inconsequential compared to owning the land but people really don't like paying taxes and if he figures his taxes will be going up he might decide to put the fence back where it belongs.

Farmerwithmutt; Your sizable acreage is;

5280 x .75 x 6 = 23760 square feet divided by 43560 (sq. ft/acre) = .545 of an acre. So your talking just over a half an acre.

Your "mad" at the former renter because YOUR fence is in the wrong place. Even though he did not move it he just removed part of the old fence in the middle for easy access.

I would just fence where it is currently at. The reason being is that if the old fence has been there for some time then the ground is his anyway. You would more than likely lose in court and then really have a PO neighbor.

Even at $15K per acre the $7500 for the half acre could real easily be eat up in legal cost real quick.

Also hope the new renter is golden. Some land lords are finding out that the high rent guys can't pay the high rents this year. The banks are raining in the easy money. A few years of $3-4 corn with the current input cost will soon sort out the rents.

If it's like here there are pins in the ground that mark the line at corners and at critical points. While you can find them take a piece of 3" pvc pipe and drive it down a bit over/around the pin leaving it standing up 3 foot tall or so to clearly identify the property line. Leave the fence where it is but you can feel free and probably should cut/bushhog the grass on the 6 foot you own on the other side of the fence or perhaps plants some trees or something. Point being if you use the land by cutting the grass or even planting trees you are asserting your rights to it--while you aren't really telling the renter they can't use it. If you don't show any interest in it and they do over time it kinda becomes theirs--sometimes legally. There is no problem with putting up a fence 6 foot inside your line--actually it's nice to be able to have your own property on both sides so it's easy to maintain the fence.

Farmer, A survey is best. If there is a dispute consult with your Surveyor, There is a good chance he surveyed the Neighbors adjacent property as well. Or ask your surveyor to see if he can get a copy of his field notes!
As others have said visit with a "Local" Land Attorney to advise you on the correct path to go down, and not get you out on a limb!
Six feet wide by 3/4 mile long is about 1 acre, no more than 2 acres tops. but is is in my mind more the principal of the thing!
If Your neighbor is upset he will have to get over it. You are still neighbors and have to get along.
If you Know the 2 end points, Unless there is a dog leg in the middle of the two end points It is a straight line. Is just isn't that complicated.
Hope this help.
Later,
John A.

If you were to agree to keep things "as is" and he continues to have use of the 6 ft, would he be willing to pay a token rent on the 1/2 acre? The proceeds could be presented to a mutually agreed upon local charity.
Seems if he now does own it through adverse possession, your legal description is correct and his is now wrong and the burden of legal, survey and recording fees are now on him to update?
Definitely worth a consult with an attorney for competent advice.
Which brings up another question:
Does title insurance cover things like an unrecorded adverse possession?

Well if you assumed the fence was the line for 20 years, I'd say the fence is the line and everyone have a good day.

But often there is more to the story, and sounds like you and the neighbor don't get along so well any more and looking to get even with each other.

If the fence was inportant to you, I'd say have the neighbor put the part he took down back up at his cost, and everyone walk away happy on things as they have been the last 20 years.

Paul

had a problem with my neighbor who had just bought the property next to me. had it surveyed, the line was off 1 ft at one end and 36ft at the other. he claimed i moved the corner post in the dark of night.nope, my dad and the former owner took the old rotted post out of the hole and put a mnew post in the same hole.he thretened to sue, had more money than me,bla,bla,bla bla. came back 2 weeks later offered to buy the one acre from me to clarify the boundry. i agreeded to it under one condition, that if he would ever decide to sell the land that he would give me first chance. about five years later he came back and offered it to me after he was turned down by the other neighbor. i ended up with it, was about $200 more an acre than the going price at the time. $1400 an acre.

HERES EVEN MOREEEEEEEEE INFORMATION FOR YALL as this is a topic that often comes up on these farm related forums and an area I often get questions about as an attorney.

A Survey is no more then an experts LEGAL OPINION. ONLY a Court of proper Jurisdiction can judicially resolve and settle boundary disputes. The law DOES NOT "NECESSARILY" AND NOT "ALWAYS" SAY if Surveyor Billy Bob sets stakes at certain locations then by golly that's the judicially recognized legal boundary. For one thing two different experts may have two different "opinions" as to a boundary location and the starting points used may vary.

HOWEVER some states have a statute by which a "Legal Survey" can be conducted and once completed (strictly fulfilling all legal requirements and notices etc etc) and properly recorded such CAN BECOME THE LEGAL BOUNDARY which a Court will recognize and uphold thereafter. THIS IS STATE SPECIFIC NOTTTTTTT ANY FEDERAL LAW

I just didn't want people to incorrectly think just because they hire a surveyor who comes out and sets some stakes THATS ABSOLUTELY THE LEGAL LINE AND ALL IS FINAL (iTs ONLY an experts Opinion remember). The neighbor may also hire his expert who sets the stakes at a different location??????? So see why it would take a court to hear the evidence and apply the law and only they can settle the dispute which may or may NOT be one of the surveys.

Again, just because a fence was somewhere for 20 years that ALONE DOES NOT satisfy the common law doctrine of Adverse Possession. HOWEVER if ALL the other several other requirements are met and such is established in a Court of law THEN AN OLD FENCE LINE MAY WELL BE JUDICIALLY DETERMINED TO BE THE BOUNDARY

I love Property Law as its the absolute OLDEST COMMON LAW. Later the upstarts came along with Contracts and Torts etc etc

Have fun yall, best wishes n God Bless

John T Country Lawyer

We had our property in Dallas surveyed before we bought it (+/- 3 acres). The neighbor's fence was about 6 ft over for a run of about 60 ft. Moving the fence would been a lot of work and they would have to move a couple of small sheds. We had them sign a document (drawn by a real estate attorney) that the fence was not the property line and we filed it with the deed.

EXCELLENT, what that Attorney was doing was to prevent any future action for Adverse Possession. Like I said below, there are SEVERAL requirements that must be present to satisfy Adverse Possession MORE AND OTHER THEN SIMPLY THE FENCE LINE WAS THERE 20 YEARS so competent professional legal advice (NOT just Billy Bob and Bubba) served you quite well yayyyyyyyy

Best wishes

John T

John T. isn't it also known as prescriptive rights?
where you use a piece of property for x years and the original owner doesn't complain then you have established your right to the property?

I had something like this happen to me a few years ago. My dad and I bought ten acres on a dirt road east of Lubbock, Texas. This was part of a large farm that was being sold off. The side facing the road had a 20 foot easement, for the road, and a 15 foot easement on the opposite (back) side of the property. The road was already there so we knew we could only use up to the 20 foot mark. The back side was open fields, so what we did was move back 15 feet and put corner posts up, thinking that eventually there would be a road or turnrow or something there for access. Didn't want to have to move a fence later on, if you understand what we were thinking. Time passed, and the property behind us sold, again in ten acre tracts. Our new neighbor took the corner posts as the property line and fenced the rest, including both his and our 15 foot easements. I approached him about it as he was building the fence. It was a simple straight line wire fence to hold cattle. He got belligerent about it and ordered me off of "his" property. I called the sheriff and was advised to get it surveyed...again. We had the original papers from the sale of the property to us. I did as advised and it was found as expected. The non usage of the land was brought up, but since it stated in the surveys and deeds that the easement could be used at any time, we won out. I had to remove his fence, he wouldn't do it, even with the threat of legal action. I did it neat, rolled up all of his wire and stacked his posts on his land. I have since stretched a single wire down the property line, including my part of the easement. The neighbor is still there, but we don't talk much.

surveys.... lets talk..

old days was a chain that was used on the top of the ground.
it went up and down hills, bumps and creeks..

now its a laser that goes perfectly straight. So all new surveys from one direction end up moving the "pin" over...


opinion... you must survey from ALL directions and compromise the pin location as the pins laid by the old chains were from all directions. new laser surveys will ALWAY be in error with existing lines and pins.

Years ago, our "neighbor" burned the straw on his field adjacent to our best hay field, and in doing so, burned down the wood fence posts of the assumed property line. It was darn near a quarter mile of fence. When my Dad asked the "neighbor" when he was going to fix or help fix the destroyed line fence, he replied "I"m not running any cows".

This made my Dad angry and he had the property surveyed. The surveyor determined that one corner of our property was about 50 feet off, and the existing fence (which had been there for who knows how long) had been very much in the "neighbor"s" favor. He said we had been losing a thin, pie shaped portion of our land. When my Dad and I rebuilt the fence, we moved it over to the line the surveyor had marked. We built pretty good cow fence. My Dad thought we gained at least an acre or two.

The "neighbor" was furious and demanded that we put the fence back where it had been. My Dad told him that he would have done that if the guy had not been such a rear end when he destroyed the good existing fence and then would not even help repair it. The "neighbor" also threatened to pull the new fence out, but my Dad advised him not to do that or the law would be involved.

The "neighbor" threatened to sue and talked about adverse possession and other laws. My Dad told him to go ahead and sue, then we would see what a judge thought of the whole situation. The "neighbor" never did sue, and he left the new fence alone. But our families were never very cordial after that--it left bitter feelings on both sides. Was it worth it? I don"t really know, I was kid at the time. We gained over an acre of good ground.

Good luck with your situation!