Turbos again!

Since I started the other thread about turbos that got hijacked I will put in my $.02 on them spinning on the trailer. This has come up a few times over the years and I have always been an unbeliever because where does all that air going through the turbo come out? I have always thought of it as a rural myth. So anyway, I am the one that has a turbo in the shop opened on one side, so I went down and turned on the compressor, waited until I had 125 lbs. then stuck it in the stack. Nothing happened. Just because a lot of people believe doesn't make it true. There are people ready to take your money everyday for things that don't really work. I thank Bob and Guido for their answers but I am still wondering if I give it a push should it spin for a second or two or should it turn only while being pushed. Also how much oil is acceptable on the discharge side towards the intake manifold?

Try blowing a large stream of air across the end of the pipe instead of sticking the nozzle into the pipe.

We cover them here at the dealership when trucking because of rocks, rain and road debris. One customer even threw a huge fit because there was no tape residue on the stack after his tractor was delivered. He probably would've complained if there was residue on his pretty little exhaust stack, though. I put it in the same category as not putting batteries on concrete floors. Some people just can't be convinced, so don't bother arguing.

Sticking a 1/4" airline into a 2.5" pipe proves just about absolutely NOTHING.
In most cases probably a turbo doesn't spin while in transit... Again, I say MOST.
If you take an engine that has enough valve overlap to be scavenged, of which there are several... the possibility exists that with the correct valve geometry both valve will be open. Combine that with a forward facing exhaust stack and now you have ram induction... They will spin.

Rod

I put 100,000 miles on a Ford Mustang SVO that's a
Turbo & intercooled 2.3L four cylinder. When the
boost gauge went up it got real fun. I blew out the
hoses between intercooler plumbing once, the power
dropped off considerably and I could hear air being
pushed out of the hole. Believe me they work, just
ask the drivers of the numerous Camaros, Firebirds
and 5.0 Mustangs I trounced with a stock Ford four
cylinder.

I have no clue on this topic.

agree completely, I really like the comment below about calling two under 30 year olds for advise, not sure about you but I have been doing this for 40 plus years and I know the older units will wind mill the turbos, sorry guys if you can blow into a muffler and it does not pressure up ( and it wont) the air is going some where, where you say, out the air cleaner duh!! I could care less if they believe it or not I have seen it happen and had to change out turbos on Cats that were running fine before being hauled without covering the stacks, do't believe that's "OK" I know its true and I always cover mine and have never lost one yet funny how some "know" things

Hello showcrop,

When wind blows across an open exhaust it is creating a vacuum. That vacuum can turn the turbo the same direction as it turns when the engine is running. Very little oil is on the main shaft, and it can run dry. Does not take much scoring, @ 1000"s of rpm"s disaster is just around the corner. Oil is the bearing on a turbo, so....... no oil is not a good thing,

Guido.

(quoted from post at 19:19:10 03/21/14) agree completely, I really like the comment below about calling two under 30 year olds for advise, not sure about you but I have been doing this for 40 plus years and I know the older units will wind mill the turbos, sorry guys if you can blow into a muffler and it does not pressure up ( and it wont) the air is going some where, where you say, out the air cleaner duh!! I could care less if they believe it or not I have seen it happen and had to change out turbos on Cats that were running fine before being hauled without covering the stacks, do't believe that's "OK" I know its true and I always cover mine and have never lost one yet funny how some "know" things

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on't mean to be argumentative, but when people say "know", I like to know how it is that they know. How?

Why is it that when Hulchel and the other railroad contractors come out of the truck stops they check the fluids on the big Cats on the lowboys and start them before leaving the truck stops? The Cats are ALWAYS RUNNING when those trucks leave the truck stop! I have seen this happen at the K & H Truck in Gilman Ill. You are free to think what you want but I will not haul a turbo diesel with out covering the stack or have the engine running if for no other reason than to keep the crud out of the stack as In too Deep says. By the way how many of you operators idle the engine for a few minutes before shut down or do you shut them down at half throttle or faster as soon as you come to a stop? I have seen some engines shut down at a fast idle and I would want to think the turbo is spinning pretty fast for a minute or three with no oil. Armand

If you transport new machines either from Cat or
J.D. they insist that the exhaust stacks be taped
up. There must be a reason for that....

It isn't air going in the stack that turns them. It is air going over the stack that creates a vacuum, much like taking your air hose and blowing air across a hose to syphon with it. Gets its air thru the engine with an intake valve or valves open will pull the air thru the air cleaner. As D7 said, there will be none leave factories without a plug in the exhaust. Hauled lots of them yrs ago and you don't leave without the stack taped or plugged.

I agree with you that's how the d6 cat was where I work, ran fine before we unloaded it and we knew right away something was wrong as it was really short of power, turned out it was the turbo and the dealer who fixed it said it was for not covering the exhaust stack.

Oil film only on the intake side may be seen on some engines, but no more as the engine can run away on motor oil too, like the Detroits did at times. If a new or rebuilt appears to be leaking all drain lines and connections should be checked, as ANY restrictions at all will cause the turbo to leak as the ring seals will be overloaded with oil. The return oil also has air in it, and looks like dirty whipped cream out of the center section, that's why the return drain line is larger. If you can, find a copy of Hugh McInnes Turbocharging book. Makes for very interesting reading, has gas, diesel, alky, and LP fuel, water injection, intercooling etc. articles. I had a turbocharged C-10 with an Olds 455 on LP and turbocharged in the 80s. That truck was FUN.

(quoted from post at 16:55:54 03/21/14) Why is it that when Hulchel and the other railroad contractors come out of the truck stops they check the fluids on the big Cats on the lowboys and start them before leaving the truck stops? The Cats are ALWAYS RUNNING when those trucks leave the truck stop! I have seen this happen at the K & H Truck in Gilman Ill. You are free to think what you want but I will not haul a turbo diesel with out covering the stack or have the engine running if for no other reason than to keep the crud out of the stack as In too Deep says. By the way how many of you operators idle the engine for a few minutes before shut down or do you shut them down at half throttle or faster as soon as you come to a stop? I have seen some engines shut down at a fast idle and I would want to think the turbo is spinning pretty fast for a minute or three with no oil. Armand

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If I shut it off and it is not ready it goes into controlled shut down mode and shuts itself off when it is ready.

(quoted from post at 16:19:10 03/21/14) agree completely, I really like the comment below about calling two under 30 year olds for advise, not sure about you but I have been doing this for 40 plus years and I know the older units will wind mill the turbos, sorry guys if you can blow into a muffler and it does not pressure up ( and it wont) the air is going some where, where you say, out the air cleaner duh!! I could care less if they believe it or not I have seen it happen and had to change out turbos on Cats that were running fine before being hauled without covering the stacks, do't believe that's "OK" I know its true and I always cover mine and have never lost one yet funny how some "know" things

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Nutty, one "kid" has worked in his dads shop for over 15 years plus is certified, Cat, Cummins and Detroit. The other "kid" my SIL has the same certs and has been on the job for over 10 years. I've never gotten bad info on diesels from either. And both have good solid reputations in their respective areas as diesel mechanics.

Now you tell me a stack with a curved tip, opening pointing in the direction of travel can spin, then I would believe it.

Rick

(quoted from post at 19:10:13 03/21/14) Oil film only on the intake side may be seen on some engines, but no more as the engine can run away on motor oil too, like the Detroits did at times. If a new or rebuilt appears to be leaking all drain lines and connections should be checked, as ANY restrictions at all will cause the turbo to leak as the ring seals will be overloaded with oil. The return oil also has air in it, and looks like dirty whipped cream out of the center section, that's why the return drain line is larger. If you can, find a copy of Hugh McInnes Turbocharging book. Makes for very interesting reading, has gas, diesel, alky, and LP fuel, water injection, intercooling etc. articles. I had a turbocharged C-10 with an Olds 455 on LP and turbocharged in the 80s. That truck was FUN.

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This turbo is not rebuilt, it probably has 5000 hours on it, maybe 10,000. I was suspecting a seal problem but I will check the return line. Thanks.

Show, thanks for your kind words. I would say NO amount of oil is acceptable coming out the intake (compressor) side of the turbo (except as qualified below). And, like the other guy, I"ll say to check the oil return line for restriction/coking FIRST.

FWIW, a year or two back I got into a similar thread here about capping the exhaust stack while hauling a turbo tractor, and, just like this time, it wasn't purdy!

I agree to the point that for the turbo to spin, the engine would have to have stopped at a point of valve overlap that would allow enough air to flow through the head to allow the turbo to "spin up" unrestricted.

I"m NOT sure that will ever happen. But, growing up in the 60"s into the 70"s, when turbos were still "new tech" a good family friend that transported tractors was always sure to cap the exhaust, just to be sure.

When my favorite little lawn ornament was delivered back in 1978, they taped off the exhaust for transport.

So, for all the $$$$$ that are involved if hauling takes the turbo out, I still err on the side of caution!

Returning to the question of oil on the compressor side of the turbo, COUNTLESS turbos on Chevy 6.5 diesel trucks were replaced 'cuz oil shows up on the outlet side of the compressor.

Well, in that situation, the crankcase was vented through a poorly-designed oil separator to the INTAKE side of the turbo.,

The oil at the OUTPUT side of the turbo was simply the condensed /coalesced version of what was vented INTO the turbo for emissions reasons.

And, (apparently) is was easier for corporate to replace the turbos than to admit to customers the actual source of the oil???

<img src = "http://www.gondtc.com/~blweltin/Bob/StuckOne.jpg">

Bob's little lawn ornament

I haul new tractors every week from the JD Waterloo plant back to our dealership. 6R, 7R, 8 and 9R series. In the past 3 years that I have been doing so, not ONCE have they ever said to tape the exhaust, and I never see anyone else do it either. If Deere wanted that done, believe me our Territory Rep would let us know. The only thing considered a no no at the Warren Dock is letting air of the tires. That will get you kicked out. But in regards to the tape, there is no need to do it on a tractor with particulate filters, EGR and DEF.

ill put my 2 cents in here for what its worth, i hauled turbocharged equipment all the time, always without exception, the stack was taped off, while the turbo may or may not spin up, the reason the stack is covered is forgine debris, turbos dont like junk in them, dirt, bugs, rcck chips ect do very bad things to them , hauling with the stack facing foward which in a lot of cases is the only way the machine will fit on the trailer, ie excavators which must have their booms tucked down inthe well on the rear of the trailer graders, one of ours is so long that the front wheels have to ride on the stub decks bewteen the 2nd and 3rd trailer axle, in order to re attach the neck of the trailer after loading it, while the chances of forgine debris finding the 6 to 8 inch hole of the exhaust stack other than encounerind a dust devil or high winds, may be small, it still can happen, i dont ever want to have to explain to the boss why his equipment had a turbo failure, and all that encompases right after a couple hundred mile ride on my truck! as for free spining, the turbo will spin, easily but not totally free, there will be slight drag on it a snappy hand spin will let the blades usually make 2 or 3 maybe 4 revolutions before comming to a stop, depending on how fresh the turbo is and its overall condition

Eric, You sound like a very conscientious person I am not suggesting that you change what you are doing. But if you looked inside of a muffler you would realize the unlikelihood of a rock getting through.
Ron

i'll admit that muffler makes the possibility of debris getting in the turbo pretty remote, but on the order of goodwill , and 'cover my butt' that roll of duckt tape isnt that expensive, and the 3 or 4 minutes spent climbing up there and taping the stack makes for better boss, employee relationships lol. equipment is a huge investment, showing some appreciation for good machinery,by taping the stack is a good thing weather it actually does something or not

I agree, You are doing the right thing. One other thing, are you busy Thursday I need to get a 220 Komatsu moved.
Ron

(quoted from post at 23:44:26 03/21/14) I put 100,000 miles on a Ford Mustang SVO that's a
Turbo &amp; intercooled 2.3L four cylinder. When the
boost gauge went up it got real fun. I blew out the
hoses between intercooler plumbing once, the power
dropped off considerably and I could hear air being
pushed out of the hole. Believe me they work, just
ask the drivers of the numerous Camaros, Firebirds
and 5.0 Mustangs I trounced with a stock Ford four
cylinder.

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ou can tell that to a "newbie" but i guarantee that is not beating a stock 5.0 any day. i know i have busted them easily and not stock but modified one's keep dreaming lol.

My wife still has her 2.3 Thunderbird Turbo coupe.
87 model. with a auto trans. With a 25 psi spring
on the waste gate it will run from a 5.0. Maybe
even 15 psi. Ours is back to 8 psi the trans just
will not take it. My son has a 5.0 with a
supercharger with proper cam and big intake
manifold and throttle body. 10 psi of boost. It is
meaner than the stock 2.3 but just barely! Sorry
Vic