Of all the talk and theories about what happened to the Malaysian airliner no one has said a word about the transponders other than them being turned off.My question is WHY are they even able to shut them off now.Have they forgotten about 911?They shut them off and no one knew where the planes were.I just can't believe they are still ableto shut them off.Ron
- Thread starter MT RON
- Start date
No expert here - but I THOUGHT the purpose of them being switched is to take them out in the event of a fire.
If the cabin's on fire - they have to be able to disable each piece of equipment to rule it out as a problem.
Survival being a whole lot more important than being tracked.
If the cabin's on fire - they have to be able to disable each piece of equipment to rule it out as a problem.
Survival being a whole lot more important than being tracked.
Carlyle hoffman
Member
Along with what has been going on and still is , WHITE HOUSE and CONGRESS, with all the technology we have today, and they keep telling the PUBLIC they can't find it, wake up its like every thing else they are telling us every day and every one is believing that. PS: Now I'll tell you my theory, they landed on a BIG vast stretch of land , Western Packestand, Pilot sold the Plane to purchase the land going to settle on it as they already have 239 Refugees and start a NEW Country. Your thoughts LOL
Per one of CNN"s former pilot experts the reason there"s a switch in the cockpit is the tower will often ask planes on the ground (taxi-ing, at terminal ect.) to turn them off to eliminate their signal on the radar screen which get"s to congested during busy times.
There is also the breaker down below as some have said in case of fire or malfunction.
There is also the breaker down below as some have said in case of fire or malfunction.
gtractorfan
Well-known Member
An interesting comparison is the amount of effort that our country is putting into the investigation (there were 3 Americans on board if I understood correctly)... at Benghazi 4 Americans were killed, where's the effort to get to the bottom of that?
Super Trucker
Member
I'm thinking it's in a hanger somewhere to be used at a later date for something not on the up and up. How do you just lose a 750 ton 220' wingspan plane with people on board with no trace? Sounds pretty fishy in my book.
Goose
Well-known Member
I had a morbid thought a day or two ago.
The plane has been said to have climbed to 45,000 feet altitude, and then was also seen by fishermen at very low altitude over water.
Now, if, at 45K altitude conspirators donned oxygen masks and depressurized the cabin, everyone else in the plane would be dead within a matter of minutes. They could then descend and fly low and slow over water to dump the bodies overboard.
Then they would be free to land the plane at an obscure airfield without having a load of passengers to contend with.
Just a thought, and as I said a rather morbid one.
Within the last few decades there have been other airplanes vanish without a trace, and have never been located.
But--as long as the media can milk this story they don't have to face issues such as the Crimean, Ukraine, the economy, unemployment, etc.
The plane has been said to have climbed to 45,000 feet altitude, and then was also seen by fishermen at very low altitude over water.
Now, if, at 45K altitude conspirators donned oxygen masks and depressurized the cabin, everyone else in the plane would be dead within a matter of minutes. They could then descend and fly low and slow over water to dump the bodies overboard.
Then they would be free to land the plane at an obscure airfield without having a load of passengers to contend with.
Just a thought, and as I said a rather morbid one.
Within the last few decades there have been other airplanes vanish without a trace, and have never been located.
But--as long as the media can milk this story they don't have to face issues such as the Crimean, Ukraine, the economy, unemployment, etc.
Dave H (MI)
Well-known Member
You expect them to be able to find a plane when they cannot even make things like this work?
This is technology?
This is technology?
Honestly, I think the biggest clue of all is where they turned.
With 360 degrees of choices, seems kind of coincidental they picked the one direction that'd get them back to the nearest airport - which is what they'd do if they had a fire on board, or other emergency.
I think the pilots succumbed to the fumes - the plane stayed on autopilot till it ran out of fuel and crashed into the ocean down by Australia where they're looking.
The whole final transmissions of "ok, goodnight" - we'll - dying people say odd things. Wouldn't seem all that odd if the pilot were in and out of consciousness for a bit.
Transponders shutting off - well, they're on circuit breakers - I could see an electrical fire tripping them off at random times in the whole ordeal.
With 360 degrees of choices, seems kind of coincidental they picked the one direction that'd get them back to the nearest airport - which is what they'd do if they had a fire on board, or other emergency.
I think the pilots succumbed to the fumes - the plane stayed on autopilot till it ran out of fuel and crashed into the ocean down by Australia where they're looking.
The whole final transmissions of "ok, goodnight" - we'll - dying people say odd things. Wouldn't seem all that odd if the pilot were in and out of consciousness for a bit.
Transponders shutting off - well, they're on circuit breakers - I could see an electrical fire tripping them off at random times in the whole ordeal.
If the transponders were active at all times it would create so much screen clutter that active flights could get lost in the mess, also in the rare event that a transponder is sending corrupted data ATC may request it be turned off, or mode C turned off, the flight will not disappear from primary radar with the transponder turned off, the radar return is still there, the numbers you see in the movies on the radar screens originate from the aircraft transponder, when the data disappeared someone dropped the ball, that information should have been passed on, but wasn"t.
When you go back to where the red flag went up, it could not have been an accident, it doesn"t make sense , ACARS sent data out for hours after, along with, CPDLC, Rolls Royce claim to have engine data for about 7 hours.
If you think about it they planned it out well and learned from their mistakes, they waited long enough so cell phones would not have a signal when they made their move, but I suspect the passengers tried to make contact, I believe there was a struggle for control, they did not have to climb to 45,000 feet to kill anyone they could have sadly done that at 32,000 feet, you could take one up to 45,000 and keep her there for a while but would not be easy would have to almost have to be at VNE, speed never exceed, and still barely be above a stall speed, the plane came back close enough so the smart phones logged the users into their social media sites until the batteries died, this aircraft easily could land in less than 10,000 feet and take off with much less after they emptied it out, this would be quite easy as these planes almost fly themselves, I still doubt it"s in the ocean, it very well may be, but they went through too much to ditch in the water, what could they do with it after they got it, you can"t sell it or any parts, all have serial numbers, god be with them, but trust me, this didn"t just happen by accident, and dropping the ball along the way didn"t help.
When you go back to where the red flag went up, it could not have been an accident, it doesn"t make sense , ACARS sent data out for hours after, along with, CPDLC, Rolls Royce claim to have engine data for about 7 hours.
If you think about it they planned it out well and learned from their mistakes, they waited long enough so cell phones would not have a signal when they made their move, but I suspect the passengers tried to make contact, I believe there was a struggle for control, they did not have to climb to 45,000 feet to kill anyone they could have sadly done that at 32,000 feet, you could take one up to 45,000 and keep her there for a while but would not be easy would have to almost have to be at VNE, speed never exceed, and still barely be above a stall speed, the plane came back close enough so the smart phones logged the users into their social media sites until the batteries died, this aircraft easily could land in less than 10,000 feet and take off with much less after they emptied it out, this would be quite easy as these planes almost fly themselves, I still doubt it"s in the ocean, it very well may be, but they went through too much to ditch in the water, what could they do with it after they got it, you can"t sell it or any parts, all have serial numbers, god be with them, but trust me, this didn"t just happen by accident, and dropping the ball along the way didn"t help.
buickanddeere
Well-known Member
The facts are........
Cell phones are easily jammed.
The aircraft had an energized electrical system and hourly pinged to within the last 45 minutes of in the tank fuel.
Could have flown to within the 45 minutes after the last ping and landed before the tanks were empty.
Could have flown until tanks were empty and " hard landed".
Not ELT signal on 121.5, 243.0 or 406 that a crash would have initiated.
No sonar ping from a wet black box.
Aircraft "landed" anywhere on the north or south arc.
Transponder ID number can be swapped to that of a legit flight.
There are many radar holes in the north and south arc that a 777 can fly through.
A 777 can tail another aircraft close enough to blend in with the lead aircraft and "disappear" from radar.
Low flying passenger aircraft sound a lot like any other ordinary military and civilian jets at night.
Some nation(s) somewhere has computer files,satellite images and radar data that they either don't understand to be important. Or they are staying quiet.
There are nations and persons on the north and south flight arcs. That dislike the west and religions other than their favourite version of nnalert.
Aircraft can be re-painted.
Cell phones are easily jammed.
The aircraft had an energized electrical system and hourly pinged to within the last 45 minutes of in the tank fuel.
Could have flown to within the 45 minutes after the last ping and landed before the tanks were empty.
Could have flown until tanks were empty and " hard landed".
Not ELT signal on 121.5, 243.0 or 406 that a crash would have initiated.
No sonar ping from a wet black box.
Aircraft "landed" anywhere on the north or south arc.
Transponder ID number can be swapped to that of a legit flight.
There are many radar holes in the north and south arc that a 777 can fly through.
A 777 can tail another aircraft close enough to blend in with the lead aircraft and "disappear" from radar.
Low flying passenger aircraft sound a lot like any other ordinary military and civilian jets at night.
Some nation(s) somewhere has computer files,satellite images and radar data that they either don't understand to be important. Or they are staying quiet.
There are nations and persons on the north and south flight arcs. That dislike the west and religions other than their favourite version of nnalert.
Aircraft can be re-painted.
Agree with the first part of your post but I believe it's in the water somewhere. Yes, the 777 can auto land but it needs the required ground equipment also and not all airports have that. Certainly larger international airports would but I don't think you're gonna hide a 777 at a major international airport.
Don't remember who posted that the first officer saying goodnight sounded suspicious but I say "good day/good night" every time I get passed off from one controller to the next. There is nothing unusual about him saying that.
GeneMO
Well-known Member
- Location
- Pilot Grove, Mo.
They operated a lot of bombers, and finally the B-29's from lots of islands and remote places during WWII. Dont know how hard it would be to clear the brush and rubble off of an old runway, lot of it depends on how long it was maintained after the war.
Gene
I don't think there's anything really too mysterious about this. From most appearances I'd wager they had a fire in the cabin, they were turning off systems to find the problem... and eventually they succumbed to smoke. An electrical fire in an aluminum tube; not good. Figure out the heading it was on last and follow it for 7 hours. You'll find the crumbs in 14k feet of water. The main reason they probably haven't found anything... IIRC, when the Swissair 111 dumped off of Halifax... I don't think there was anything bigger than a cellphone left.... and that was a relatively low altitude ditching. Try dropping one from 30k feet...
Sometimes the most obvious answer is the most overlooked.
Rod
Sometimes the most obvious answer is the most overlooked.
Rod
Super Trucker
Member
Maybe it's the starting sequel to LOST ?
farmer boy
Well-known Member
Can't be Old. It's too well written and the handle
was registered in 2009. I never got the impression
that old was smart enough to pre-plan that well.
was registered in 2009. I never got the impression
that old was smart enough to pre-plan that well.
Ultradog MN
Well-known Member
- Location
- Twin Cities
I was in Guam in 75 when Saigon fell.
About 75,000 Vietnamese came there on US carriers, ships, scows, planes and whatever else they could get out on.
The Army came in and bulldozed open an old WWII B29 airfield and set tents up to temporarily house the people. They took us off the ship and had us helping.
Google Operation New Life.
Believe me, it took a bunch of D9s to clear those old runways of the jungle that had grown back up in the 30 years since the war and they were originally blacktopped. Now, another 40 years later, there is no way one of those old WWII air fields could be cleared and landed on without a satelite easily seeing it.
About 75,000 Vietnamese came there on US carriers, ships, scows, planes and whatever else they could get out on.
The Army came in and bulldozed open an old WWII B29 airfield and set tents up to temporarily house the people. They took us off the ship and had us helping.
Google Operation New Life.
Believe me, it took a bunch of D9s to clear those old runways of the jungle that had grown back up in the 30 years since the war and they were originally blacktopped. Now, another 40 years later, there is no way one of those old WWII air fields could be cleared and landed on without a satelite easily seeing it.
dr sportster
Well-known Member
Hilarious !
RandyB(MI)
Well-known Member
All I have to say is that we will see that plane again and it won't be by invitation.
Traditional Farmer
Well-known Member
- Location
- Virginia
The Gov't can track every car with GPS,they can track every cell phone,listen to every phone conservation in the World but can't keep up with a
$100,000,000 Airplane seems like maybe a little priority adjustment might be needed.
$100,000,000 Airplane seems like maybe a little priority adjustment might be needed.
just another old geezer
Member
the government contract any car with GPS. The government can track any cell phone. That's any, not every. The number of cars and cell phones make it impossible to track every single one all the time. The same thing with airliners in the air.
buickanddeere
Well-known Member
I don't know why you guys don't get it???
#1Cell phones don't work at high altitude.#2 Cell phone jammers are cheap and easily available.
#1Cell phones don't work at high altitude.#2 Cell phone jammers are cheap and easily available.
Tramway Guy
Well-known Member
The oxygen system will only last for a short period of time once masks are deployed. If you depressurize you better head to a lower altitude fast.
That "breaker "'s not down below, it's right with all the others, in some of the planes I fly I bumped the breakers without knowing it, I still like the old birds best, if you don't have much time in them you won't go far, and they don't land themselves, been working on a deal with a couple guys to bring back a few DC-3's back here from Asia, but they don't want to sell for some reason, almost thought I was ready to pull a ferry permit in February, if we can get them to agree there will be pictures here if i can figure out how to do it, had a DC-6 here we finally lost to a final buyer in Florida, not sure if they ever restored it but flew well the last time I took her up. Not sure why they want to keep these old DC-3's, they have not moved in several years, in pretty good condition for the years.
Traditional Farmer
Well-known Member
- Location
- Virginia
The NSA tracks and catalogs EVERY phone call made in the USA and apparently most of the World.Also tracks all emails and saves the content for a period of time.
old bc:
Wouldn't be that hard to do. Tie the Transponder into the Altimeter so that ABOVE 500 Ft. AGL (Above Ground Level) the Transponder is ON, below 500 Ft. AGL and the Transponder is OFF. That way you would always have a "Last Known Point". So if the aircraft crashed you would know where to start looking, - how far can an aircraft go in 500 feet?
Doc
Wouldn't be that hard to do. Tie the Transponder into the Altimeter so that ABOVE 500 Ft. AGL (Above Ground Level) the Transponder is ON, below 500 Ft. AGL and the Transponder is OFF. That way you would always have a "Last Known Point". So if the aircraft crashed you would know where to start looking, - how far can an aircraft go in 500 feet?
Doc
John Fulton
Member
Transponders are a method air traffic controllers use to identify each aircraft within its flight path. The controller will tell the pilot to switch to a certain frequency, thus giving the plane a unique signal. Each plane has to be able to comply to this order so the ATC can guide him on flight path for landing, take-off, taxiing, etc. I suspect that what will become of this incident is that planes will be equipped with a frequency separate from all others that could not be manipulated, and is on all the time. However, even that one could possibly be disabled by pulling a circuit breaker. Bottom line is, I reckon if you want to steal a plane, I reckon you can do it. What is so very worrisome is that with the climate of drastically reducing all Government regulations, this incident has provided any terrorist organization with an excellent blueprint on how to steal a plane and crash it wherever they want.
BTW, what most of us fail to realize is that the area this plane headed is absolutely most remote section of the world with some of the roughest weather.
BTW, what most of us fail to realize is that the area this plane headed is absolutely most remote section of the world with some of the roughest weather.
MarkB_MI
Well-known Member
- Location
- Motown USA
The facts are few and the speculation is rampant.
First, it's necessary to be able to turn transponders off ("standby") so aircraft on the ground don't squawk ATC every time someone flips on the master switch. I'm not familiar with the ACARS system, but it would be considered non-essential and anything non-essential in the cockpit can be easily turned off. About the only things that can't be disabled are battery backed-up equipment such as a standby attitude indicator.
Known facts: Transponder and ACARS were turned off and the aircraft made an abrupt turn. Aircraft flew at least until it was almost out of fuel. No confirmed sightings of aircraft after it entered the Indian Ocean. No Emergency Locator Transmitter signal has been detected. Based on last transmissions from the engine ACARS places the location either far north of India or in the southern Indian Ocean.
Most likely scenario: Someone in the cockpit deliberately caused the aircraft to change course for unknown reasons. Aircraft flew southeast into the Indian Ocean until it ran out of fuel and went down into the water and sunk. The possibility that the plane was able to land with the fuel it had left on board after the last ACARS transmission is unlikely, and the lack of any ELT transmission means it probably didn't crash on land.
Anything else is pretty much speculation until the cockpit voice and flight data recorders are recovered. This incident and the Air France crash make a good argument for sending the black box data live back to the ground.
First, it's necessary to be able to turn transponders off ("standby") so aircraft on the ground don't squawk ATC every time someone flips on the master switch. I'm not familiar with the ACARS system, but it would be considered non-essential and anything non-essential in the cockpit can be easily turned off. About the only things that can't be disabled are battery backed-up equipment such as a standby attitude indicator.
Known facts: Transponder and ACARS were turned off and the aircraft made an abrupt turn. Aircraft flew at least until it was almost out of fuel. No confirmed sightings of aircraft after it entered the Indian Ocean. No Emergency Locator Transmitter signal has been detected. Based on last transmissions from the engine ACARS places the location either far north of India or in the southern Indian Ocean.
Most likely scenario: Someone in the cockpit deliberately caused the aircraft to change course for unknown reasons. Aircraft flew southeast into the Indian Ocean until it ran out of fuel and went down into the water and sunk. The possibility that the plane was able to land with the fuel it had left on board after the last ACARS transmission is unlikely, and the lack of any ELT transmission means it probably didn't crash on land.
Anything else is pretty much speculation until the cockpit voice and flight data recorders are recovered. This incident and the Air France crash make a good argument for sending the black box data live back to the ground.
MarkB_MI
Well-known Member
- Location
- Motown USA
John, transponders don't squawk at different frequencies, they squaw codes. The codes are from 0000 to 7777 octal, giving a total of 4096 unique codes (8 raised to the 4th power). A few codes are reserved (1200 for VFR flights, 7700 for emergency, etc.) and the rest are assigned to aircraft by ATC as they see fit.
Don't expect any changes to the existing transponder code system, even though technology exists to enhance it. The technology is quite old, based on WWII Identification Friend or Foe systems. Upgrading it would require expensive changes to all ground stations. Meanwhile, ATC technology is moving away from ground radar-based systems and going to satellite-based systems like GPS and ACARS. It's much more likely that commercial flights will be required to keep in communication with ATC using ACARS or a similar system and continually report their GPS-based location.
Don't expect any changes to the existing transponder code system, even though technology exists to enhance it. The technology is quite old, based on WWII Identification Friend or Foe systems. Upgrading it would require expensive changes to all ground stations. Meanwhile, ATC technology is moving away from ground radar-based systems and going to satellite-based systems like GPS and ACARS. It's much more likely that commercial flights will be required to keep in communication with ATC using ACARS or a similar system and continually report their GPS-based location.
Traditional Farmer
Well-known Member
- Location
- Virginia
Sounds like John Deere must have bought Boeing(LOL)
Smaller vessels and planes disappear all the time and are never found. To me, this is all massaged and pushed to take our eyes off those nasty international situations, things like the US not honoring it's agreement with Ukraine to help defend it, to not notice the Cold War is has just restarted, that the G8 just died, that the US is no longer a super power, that our economy is on the brink of total collapse.
Yeah, I'd rather think about an airplane too...
Yeah, I'd rather think about an airplane too...
MarkB_MI
Well-known Member
- Location
- Motown USA
Bret, thanks for sharing your insights, but I think most folks here already know what Fox News has to say about the matter. Of course if anyone knows how to distract viewers from actual news, it would be Fox.
Blackhole49
Well-known Member
- Location
- White Lake MI
Sure glad you're not a pilot!
Actually... the mantra I read the other day, from a pilot that proposed the basic theory I gave... he said that in case of fire they are taught to aviate, navigate, communicate... in that order. Meaning, the first priority is to keep the bird in the air. Second priority is to set it on course to somewhere you can set it down. Last priority is to tell the people on the ground because in reality.... there isn't a damn thing they can do for your present problem other than watch.
Obviously if you get things under control sufficiently that you can radio the tower, you would do that... but to me a fire a my feet would be a lot higher on the priority list. It doesn't do a lot of good to radio your position and situation when making that decision might well be the difference between keeping the thing flying and certain foundering. Sure, they'll know roughly where to find ya, but you're still dead.
Rod
Obviously if you get things under control sufficiently that you can radio the tower, you would do that... but to me a fire a my feet would be a lot higher on the priority list. It doesn't do a lot of good to radio your position and situation when making that decision might well be the difference between keeping the thing flying and certain foundering. Sure, they'll know roughly where to find ya, but you're still dead.
Rod
buickanddeere
Well-known Member
This is perhaps why owners of DC3's and C47's are holding onto those airframes for conversions.
Our air charter operator ordered three conversions. To haul freight into the Ring of Fire mining camps, hunt/resort camps and native reservations. No high altitude long distance routes.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basler_BT-67
muleboss
Member
- Location
- Burlington, Kansas
Is not this pretty much just speculation on your part?
I have to agree and dis-agree with your comment about the landing length of a run way for a Boeing 777. I worked at a major airport for 27 yr. as the assistant fire chief in the crash crew. A Boeing 777 can indeed land on a runway of 5,000 ft. or maybe even a little less if the conditions are right. Remember this aircraft weighs a heck of a lot more than a WWII bomber. You need a runway to hold that weight,..blacktop wont't do it. However,..it needs all of 8,000 ft preferably 10,000 feet for a safe take off. No aircraft takes off totally empty,..they need fuel. Passenger weight and luggage does significantly lower the g.w. but fuel is the major factor.
The pilot was watching and "thumbs up" on atheist based argument you tube videos.
I hate to speculate on something like this, but I did watch his posted videos, and browsed his youtube activity. Seems like a really nice guy. I hate to think anything bad happened to him. He had a passion for aviation. I know that feeling. I have a passion for it also. As for his flight sim and the investigation into it... That doesn't make sense. It's an alternate reality. I routinely barn storm with f-16's and 747's on my flight sim. Can't do it in real life, but it sure is fun with the ultra realistic flight simulators. If anyone from the FBI saw me making crop dusting passes with an SR-71, I would hope they know I am just being silly, and not making plans to boost a blackbird and use it for fungicide application. Although, c'mon, admit it... now that I got you thinking about crop dust with a supersonic spy plane, you want to give it a shot, also. hahaha
Mark, I hate to tell you this, but I don't watch TV news other than our local news a couple nights a week. And for that matter, I think most folks here already know what CNN/MSNBC/CBS/ABC/NBC/NPR/PBS has to say about the matter. Of course if anyone knows how to distract viewers from actual news, it would be CNN/MSNBC/CBS/ABC/NBC/NPR/PBS.
I read Mark, I don't need Fox.
buickanddeere
Well-known Member
No ELT signal and no sonar ping = no crash.
Timing and altitude was ideal for MH370 "to go dark". Then pull up behind and tail Singapore flight 68 north.
Singapore 68 flew over India, Pakistan, Afghanistan, and finally Turkmenistan before proceeding onward across Europe to its final destination of Barcelona, Spain
They landed MH370 on some back woods airport and threw some tarps on it. Mh370 had enough fuel to make Pakistan.
Acars Signal continued until the Engines and/or APU was shutdown.
Anybody who thinks passengers are bobbing on life rafts in the south Indian Ocean. And.......... are still alive after 16 days are unaware of reality.
Keith Legerwood did an outstanding job at finding the technical facts that proves the theory is possible.
Anybody here who doesn't think Military and spook flights haven't stealthed themselves into some controversial places behind a legitimate flight?
Timing and altitude was ideal for MH370 "to go dark". Then pull up behind and tail Singapore flight 68 north.
Singapore 68 flew over India, Pakistan, Afghanistan, and finally Turkmenistan before proceeding onward across Europe to its final destination of Barcelona, Spain
They landed MH370 on some back woods airport and threw some tarps on it. Mh370 had enough fuel to make Pakistan.
Acars Signal continued until the Engines and/or APU was shutdown.
Anybody who thinks passengers are bobbing on life rafts in the south Indian Ocean. And.......... are still alive after 16 days are unaware of reality.
Keith Legerwood did an outstanding job at finding the technical facts that proves the theory is possible.
Anybody here who doesn't think Military and spook flights haven't stealthed themselves into some controversial places behind a legitimate flight?
buickanddeere
Well-known Member
Anonymous-0
Well-known Member
Tin foil hats! that was good for a laugh!!
buickanddeere
Well-known Member
Hope it is tin foil hats.
It would be an awful mess if that 777 showed up re-painted, full of hostages and loaded with an Iranian U-235 bomb.
It would be an awful mess if that 777 showed up re-painted, full of hostages and loaded with an Iranian U-235 bomb.
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