building storage loft

This maybe a little off topic, But here goes.
I recently put up a pole barn for my farm equiptment storage. I would like to build a loft to utilize the wasted space above.

My plan was 2x10 headers, Set the cross beams, 2x10's also across the width of the building, 30 ft. with a supporting pole in the middle. Top it off with 3/4 chipboard. The idea is to use 2 16 ft 2x10 pine boards and have them overlap in the middle over the support.

How much weight do you think this will be able to support? Also should I use those fancy metal hangers to attach the cross beams to the header boards?

If those are factory trusses, check with the manufacturer for their design loads. They may not want ANY more weight added in that location.

If you collapse the roof, it will cancel the warranty.

You may want to look at some wood framing reference books or something to give you some information on how to frame using the materials you suggest or similar and see what loading it can take. I even hate to say it, but having an engineer, take a look, do some checks, calculations, might be worthwhile, given the span involved. You'll have to provide the as-built conditions, and what you intend to do, connection details and or framing plan. Building Mfr if there is one here, may be helpful as well. I suppose what I am saying, there's a little more to than this than you may think, regardless how you do it, you do want to make sure its done right and checks out for the loads it will support and that it can be constructed to do that and hold itself up. Recently I've seen a few wood framed decks fail on the internet, in the news, not good when it falls and people are on it or under it. I know many builders will know how to use wood framing, such as with residential work, don't need an engineer, but if were me, I'd want to be sure I had a plan that had some calculations to support it just based on those spans.

Sounds reasonable to me...the width will be 30
foot, but how long out into the building are you
talking ? What spacing on the floor joists are you
thinking ? If it was me I would want that center
support to be 6x6 s and about 6 foot spacings. The
hangers are sometimes a pain IMO.

The way wood is today I wouldn't use anything less than a 2x12 and good supports under it. Storage areas have a way of collecting tons of junk over the years and you don't want it coming down on your head or equipment.

8 ft out I am thinking 2 ft centers on the beams. Center beam support is going to be a piece of 6" pipe. With a plate welded on the bottom, sunk into the ground 30" on top of that there will be a 6x6 laying across the top of it. to span the 3 "outer beams.

I am not looking to put plows up there, but misc items. Motorcycles, and misc other odds and ends.

When I did my pole building/shop I referenced the book "Practical Farm Buildings", should be in your local library. My idea was for parts storage and I used 114 lb/sq. ft. as the design load (light industrial. 12 ft long 2X10 joists on 16 in. centers. Wall ends are setting on a stud wall and the ends in the shop area set on 3 2X8 sistered together with a post every 10 feet. Then built a railing along the exposed length--it just wouldn't do to have someone fall off.
My thought was "am I sure I will only load it the way it's built". It will get loaded heavy.

You will be much happier with engineered LAM beams, they support more weight for the same thickness, will want to double them and overlap the joints.

Use LAM for beams, I joists to support the floor.

This does NOT answer your question, but I thot my experience
might give somebody else a thought or two.

When I was planning my pole barn with a 6:12 pitch I ,too, wanted a
loft to use all the "wasted space". The labor and materials for the
loft was priced out to "do it right", and it was cheaper to just build a
bigger building and set my junk on the ground. Plus, I didn't have
to carry it up and down - nor put lights in the loft.

I built a garage with a 30 ft span and was able to
get regular 2x12's in 32 ft lengths.

I know of 2 different Loggers, who built pole
buildings big enough to store a logging truck,
with a "Prentice" log loader, inside.
One had a loft for storage. Another, whose wife
"Cleaned him out" in a divorce, built an upstairs apartment, in his building, and lived there. A
Skidder,logging truck, and workshop were below.

We had a 15.5 ft span on the shop loft. Originally a 6x6 had
been tossed up on 8 ft centres just to toss some styrofoam
onto. It sagged about 4" with 100 sheets of foam piled up
there. We put 3 nail laminated 2x12s to replace and it's much
better. That works out to 24" equivalent centres in our case
and 16" would be better or a deep box beam.

What is holding the 2x10 headers up? laminated beams are way stronger than sawn beams of the same size, but you can also make your own with some glue and nails.

Will your loft be free-standing inside the building or will you fasten three sides of the loft to your existing building poles? How big will the loft be? It sounds like it will run 30 feet across the width of the building and maybe 8 to 16 feet from an end wall out into the building?

Next time you are in a lumber yard, take a look at how their double decker lumber racks are built. They are made to support a lot of weight. Yours may not need to be that strong, but it give you a good example of where bracing is needed. Be sure to provide X-bracing at the corners to prevent the legs from folding over sideways.

It sounds like a fun project!

You really don't give enough info to calculate the loading
spacing of the 2x10 spanning 15 ft
Grade and species of lumber you will be using
span of the 2x10 headers--pole spacing

very seldom is the finish flooring run parallel to the support joist, perpendicular will make the flooring much stiffer and you can usually add 15% more loading.

Sorry, yes 3 sides supported by the building. 8ft by 30ft. One Tee pole in the center, the ends I planned on attaching a 2x10 to the wall and using that as my header for the cross beams. No other poles.

most likely dss yellow pine untreated.

4 joists 30 ft long. as far as the chipboard, laying it opposite the direction of the beams adds strength?

I saw you're thinking 8 foot into the building. You might consider cantilevering another 4 foot past your main support beam to make a 12 foot x 30 foot loft, or move the support beam 1/4 to 1/3 the way under the deck to make it stronger.

Your stairs will take a lot of space, a rack of shelves under stairs works well. It is convienient to have the bottom of the stairs near a door, and the top of the stairs near the center of the loft. That shortens the distances you have to carry things.

8ft is my maximum depth, equiptment will fit, tractors wont. No stairs, just a ladder when needed. so maximum floor space is left.

The ladder won't be fun for long, I would plan to be able to add
a stairs later anyhow, sometimes its so easy to add a couple
bits now and save a lot of retrofitting later.....

So, the beams under the floor will be 30 foot, split in half with
the post so they will span 15 feet. So you will be having a 15 x
8 floor supported by 4 2x10. Likely the back beam will be
anchored to a couple of poles, but the other 3 will be clear 15
foot span.

That would seem light to me, but I'm only a simple dirt farmer.

I'd think you need more on that front free beam at least. Taller,
or doubled, or something. I'd think your loft would sag and
want to bow down and out into the shed.

Paul

(quoted from post at 18:12:55 03/18/14) Sorry, yes 3 sides supported by the building. 8ft by 30ft. One Tee pole in the center, the ends I planned on attaching a 2x10 to the wall and using that as my header for the cross beams. No other poles.

most likely dss yellow pine untreated.

4 joists 30 ft long. as far as the chipboard, laying it opposite the direction of the beams adds strength?

Click to expand...

Use a double 2X10 ledger at each end.

You'll need a post at the center of the span along the wall and another post 8' out at the edge of the loft.

Use triple 2X12's for the center beam. You can place the joists on top of the beam. If you don't want the beam sticking down, you can use a pocket beam where the joists butt against the beam rather than sitting on it. You'll need joist hangers if you use a pocket beam.

4X4 posts might be ok. I'd recommend 3 pieces of 2X6 laminated together for each post.

2X10 joists are OK but put them on 16" centers. The front and back joists will need to be cut and butted in the center. Overlap the center joists and nail them together as well as nail them to the center beam.

Instead of OSB spend a couple of dollars more and use 3/4 inch tongue and groove plywood.

Yes, you'll need joist hangers on the ledgers. Lag the ledgers to the posts. Bolt a 2X6 flatways on the posts from the floor to the bottom of the ledgers.

Use 1X3 bridging in the center of each span.

Make sure the crown on all the joists is facing up.

The difference between building a strong and safe loft vs one that will sag and need repairs that be dangerous is only a few dollars. Do it once. Do it right.

Remember a few years back when the I35 bridge collapsed in MN? It was designed by engineers, inspected by engineers, and they couldn't decide what to do about it structurally, so they started putting a new cosmetic surface on top! The politicians ignored it and it fell down and killed a bunch of people. I don't have a lot of faith in modern engineers, ancient
Romans were better engineers 2000 years ago.

I didn't see where he planned any attachment to the trusses.

By all means use joist hangers whenever butting, placing the joists on top of the beam would be better. Have you thought of using engineered I joists? When we built our cabin engineered I joists were the same price per ft. as 2X10's, and available in full with of the cabin.

If I understand right...you will ultimately have a 2x10 spanning 15'....that should be fine. I have the same thing here (my office is underneath) and storage above....spaced on 16" centers.....it is strong.

Plenty of good points. That's why I asked. I know a little bit, enough to be dangerous!

Yes, I want to build it once and be done. It be safe and not very expensive. Also allow as much room as possible. The barn is 12'ceilings, So I plan on the bottom of the boards to be 7ft off the ground.

The I joists, according to the lumberyard are not as strong as the 2x10's would be.. So I was told. They quoted me 700.00 in materials, which I thought was quite high... or 1200.00 w a laminated beam 18" tall...

plywood layed perpendicular to the joists makes the flooring stronger--but chip boar4 doesn't really matter--i would still lay it with the 8 ft dimension perpendicular to the joists
Lag bolt the 2x10 to the side wall ---but the header in the center with an 8 ft span may be needed to be doubled.
joist hangers are always superior to other type of fasteners.

so what is the joist spacing you are planning to use??

Sounds good as long as you go to 16" OC joists as Pops says, but consider this too, at 7 foot high just a head of where you drive you tractors in to, you will be setting heavier stuff up there with the loader, than you are planning to right now, so I would go to 12" OC for the outer four feet.

I do recall exactly that.

Thats fine, but a structural steel bridge with concrete columns, piers and piles if that were the case with this structure, seems to be a lot different than a wood framed platform connected to the columns and whatever else this pole type or similar building that the poster of this thread is asking about.

Personally, when it comes to structures, maybe some of us know the inherent strengths and statistics of materials as well as the performance and typical construction assemblies with wood frame structures better than others, and have an ability to design based on experience. Often is the case with residential contractors, who know the typical wood framing details and the loads that can be supported.

However, being a public forum, and the post being very light on details, I will stand by my advice to seek a competent engineer and have the plans to build this additional component, one that is load bearing, checked, analyzed and calculated by someone who holds a licenses professional engineers license, that stamps the drawings.

Thats industry standard in construction, so the advice given parallels that. Sure its possible to make a mistake, faulty materials, or the work not being installed as called for on the plans that were checked or provided by the engineer. They have error and omission insurance, and hope to never have to use it.

Some balk at this advice, well I don't need no architect or engineer to tell me how to build, thats fine too. For what it would cost to check the as built, and the few details and material selections being proposed and asked by the person who initiated this thread, its inconsequential.

We can reference the biggest failures of structures all we want, but anyone with reasonable intelligence would know that when you run the numbers, whats proposed checks out and say you have a redundancy in the design, to include on top of that a substantial safety margin, knows that if it is built according to the plan that the engineer checked, they should be very confident when they stand on it with the load thats on it and or stand under it, knowing someone competent verified that the design works vs some arbitrary design, built with no idea whether this should be done or that should be done, Hmmm, should I use those hangers as was asked about here, or just nail it. I know which one I would trust.

I'm sorry to be biased but I've completed well over $500M in new construction in my career and have worked with many major architectural and engineering firms, some international, dealing with major structural components, of all the common materials used in the industry today, none of those buildings or structures have failed, some of them have been in place over 20 years and many of them have details which I modified to allow for field conditions or were changes required, ALL were checked, analyzed, calculated and stamped by a licensed professional engineer, inspected in the field to comply with the details provided, and accepted as constructed. In NYC the controlled inspections of the work that has to meet certain criteria is inspected signed off by a P.E.or the owner does not get a certificate of occupancy.

Now it may seem I'm being defensive LOL, but when someone asks a question like this, I don't think I'd say, the darned engineers today are not worth a warm bucket of spit, get a Roman engineer to look at it LOL ! And, I definitely recognize what you mean by saying this, some of the things of past seem to have the benefit of better design, no question on that, not all though. I'd have to say we would have some serious problems without these guys, I mean look at structures in other countries. Just saying is all, someone asks a question like this here, they really need to consult with a professional designer, perhaps even the building manufacturers designers if that is the case here, because you are intending to modify their design without even consulting them about the impact of such changes or additions, its all relative to safety, a person can do as they wish, until such time something fails and they regret not taking the extra measures to do so in the beginning. A public forum may be ok for some guidance, in the end, someone competent should be advising this person, I would not even attempt to advise someone on a framing plan like this, I am NOT qualified to do so. We all know that most of our houses have 2x10 or 2x12 floor joists 16" o.c. 2x4 or 2x6 walls, same spacing jack studs at doors, with a double 2x10 header, most will use that common knowledge and not have a problem, even though its not calc'd and checked out. But, you decide to attach a platform to an existing building, then load it with items you want to store, I think the consultation with a licensed professional is called for, even if its something small like this. You have the weight of the platform, people standing on it, live loads, and the items to be place on the deck, + safety margin, how does the person building this know it will hold the weight, by guessing or calculation, I'd vote for the latter LOL !!!!

But its still a very good question, we have no details in plan or section here, how can any one really advise another without seeing some kind of plan including the details ? I'd be the first one to ask what are the as-built conditions first, starting with the footings under the posts.

Redblood. All these responses sound like a school lunchroom. Everyone has a different idea of what you are planning. Using the word beams when they mean joist, etc. I cant tell what your planning or what they are suggesting. This is as simple of a building project as it gets. Don't overthink it.

Use dimension lumber all 2*8 or 2*10 including headers. It will be much easier for you to work with. Hanger the ends because you don't have great nailing skills.

Lumber has a tremendous capacity to be overloaded.

Run your 3/4 inch sheeting across the joist not with it. Takes the same amount of lumber is stronger and faster.

It wont collapse as long as you properly attach the rim joist on the 30 foot wall.

Its not for grain storage.

If you use three post on the open end you will have five bearing points and four seven foot spans. That's a lot of support.

Build a stairway or its not worth it.
That last part is opinion the rest is fact.

Also do not rely on nails to hold anything up.Must
be bolted or lag screws.Know of a hay loft that
sheared the nails and came down. Luckily no one was
hurt.

(quoted from post at 16:22:56 03/18/14) Redblood. All these responses sound like a school lunchroom. Everyone has a different idea of what you are planning. Using the word beams when they mean joist, etc. I cant tell what your planning or what they are suggesting. This is as simple of a building project as it gets. Don't overthink it.

Use dimension lumber all 2*8 or 2*10 including headers. It will be much easier for you to work with. Hanger the ends because you don't have great nailing skills.

Lumber has a tremendous capacity to be overloaded.

Run your 3/4 inch sheeting across the joist not with it. Takes the same amount of lumber is stronger and faster.

It wont collapse as long as you properly attach the rim joist on the 30 foot wall.

Its not for grain storage.

If you use three post on the open end you will have five bearing points and four seven foot spans. That's a lot of support.

Build a stairway or its not worth it.
That last part is opinion the rest is fact.

Click to expand...

I guess I had better get everything that I've built over the last forty years bulldozed before it falls down on me.

If that's directed at me I don't understand.
As I read the posts your suggestions are more conservative than mine. You want to build it heavier than I do.

This is my basic idea. I am not an artist. But I believe you get the idea..

Redblood, if you want, open your email.

I think most would turn the joist the eight foot direction.

You could set your posts at seven feet from each end with a 16 foot opening in the middle.
You will need a larger header on the sixteen foot span.

Make everything flush on the bottom.

How far apart are the posts in your new pole barn?

This storage does not effect the roof at all.

The existing poles to the barn are the load bearing on the perimeter.

One post as you have drawn is maximum. Long spans.
The header is not the problem.

One post is a problem for me. IF that got bumped or nocked out you would be looking at a collapse.

Carpenter, I for some reason cannot "open" my email.. I cant even find it.. lol..

[email protected] is my email.

I want to stay away from the multiple poles in front and only use one center pole. Which I plan on sinking into the ground. It actually will be a piece of steel pipe and possibly cemented.

The polebarn poles are on 8 ft centers.

The single post is a problem for me as well.
Email sent.

Excellent! I've often worked using pencil sketches, graph paper tablet, straight edge, lead holder with thick lead, and soft eraser, to create details that needed to be sent to a designer, a change in the field or what have you, as well as marking up a partial plan or section detail. Now I'm a bit dated, don't know C.A.D., but assume there's a lot out there software wise that one can use just as effectively to get a rough draft sketch, or like me using the previous, both are effective and when you ask a question like this here, it will be very effective to illustrate to all who respond what you are doing, neat or not, picture is a thousand words !!!! LOL!

So to clarify, your framing plan consists of a deck, supported on 3 sides, with a ledger on the 2 ends. In plan view, you show the framing members over lapping a center beam underneath, that is supported by 1 post correct ?

What supports the center beam at the wall, opposite the set back post, so both ends of the beam are bearing on something or connected to something that bears and transfers the load ? Anyway, maybe I've missed something, but there has to be something there, post and a connection to the existing framing of the building for that center beam to carry the joists perpendicular to it at the center where the joists overlap.

It's the only detail that confuses me after looking at this, is that the far or end floor joist, next to the existing wall, does it bear on a ledger, then is there another ledger, below that, 9 1/2" (width of a 2x10) and is this what that end of the center beam bears on ?

I think I can see what you plan to do, minus the center support.

So the important details here are the connections, fastener types, and the loading imposed, onto the deck and transferred to the ledgers, center post and where ever else if I have missed something. Also the framing members, (spruce, pine or fir) or S.P.F. size, spacing, and will they be stiffened, (between the joists) besides the decking?

You will want to make sure the shear loads on the ledgers, including fasteners check out, whatever is carrying a load, transferring a load etc.

Realize that many screws commonly available are not rated for any shear load. Also realize that lag bolts, I have seen them made of what appeared to be pot metal, with shiny finish, best to make sure those are galvanized steel, have an astm designation, or are rated for shear loads that will be imposed. Fastening and connections do have to meet certain criteria. Next is, figure all the weight that will be placed on this deck, does it match, exceed or is it less than what all these details together support ? And how do you know this ? Also does the existing framing and what you add to it have any impact, meaning its been checked, does anything there have to be beefed up, is there any conflict, or is it fine as is, and how do you know that. Its relative to safety.

Take a rough plan like above, refine it into something neat, show all pertinent details, dimensions etc. take some photos of existing conditions, then take it to or get someone qualified to look it over. In a few hours, and what would amount to coffee money, you will have your answer(s), any necessary changes, pertinent questions answered and know it all works, its a very simple elevated storage loft with a few key components and details to check to insure its safety when built and put into use.

Put it this way, if this was an addition to an occupied space in a home, most municipalities would not grant a permit unless you had a P.E. stamped plan submitted, being a barn relieves you of that requirement, but could also leave something unknown because of it, hence my suggestions to have the plan checked out, which some may disagree with, you're over thinking, its over kill etc. but for as simple as it is, for the cost of a few hours, if that of a P.E. its peace of mind.

I used to work with Rice Engineering out of Wausau, Wisconsin, for all kinds of things, small and large, I know one thing, if I faxed them a plan and detail like this relative to a job I was doing, (in those days-mostly commercial work), it would be turned around in 1 day and the bill would have been fair, covering the few hours it took to check it out by whomever did the work.

Additionally, I am not a licensed P.E. and am not qualified to advise on any actual structural design that will result from suggestions or advice stated here. It is highly advisable to seek the advice of a licensed professional, prior to constructing any of the above. LOL ! kind of a John T disclaimer, if you have seen his posts, always very helpful, but ends with a disclaimer.

In summary, just trying to helpful and promote safety, that's all LOL !!!!