Woodlots

Dave H's comment on the prosperity thread about wood lots got me thinking, and I did not want to hijack that thread. What is everybody's thoughts on wood lots and fence lines? How do you decide what to leave woods, what to clear? The 125 acres I bought last spring is about 65 acres wooded, and I have found the subject of clearing or not is a touchy subject with all involved! My father has a very hard time understanding why I don't clear cut it all, he wants nice big square fields. The place was for the most part cleared leaving the nice timber, clearing the scrub, leaving irregular shaped fields. Other folks (womenfolk mostly) mostly think I should leave it all woods. My plan at this point is to clear about 40 more acres, leaving about 25 in several wooded areas. I'm not so much asking for advice, I have made my decision, just wondering what others thoughts are on woods, and how many leave some on the place just for the wonderful feeling of being able to go for a quiet walk in your woods?

Just be glad you can still make that decision. The California town I live in, if I wanted to do that, the city would make that decision for me. If someone was to clear virgin land, they have to buy that same amount of land from a land bank in a protected area. Stan

i friend of my let me borrow a book that was written back in the 1920's the subject was homesteading. it mentioned the importance of the wooded area. something about, if managed properly will provide a constant, reliable wood source to heat your house with.

I have cows. some poeple are picky as heck about not having one dang tree in their pasture. A few trees don't bother me none. I figure they provide shade for the cattle on really hot summer days. Letting it grow up to a forest is not good for the grass so I only let so many be. You gotta be careful about clear cutting in my state because of rules and regulations the tree huggers have gotten passed. Espeacially along streams, and creeks and things like that. Not going to comment on whether I'm for or against, but envirementalists are only going to make the stipulations worse. There rules seem to be stapled and applied to any acres that recieve farm subsidies, or any government project. Even seen a place where the state highway department had to create a man made nature area just because they needed to build a wider bridge. The area they created was suppose to replace the extra area the bigger bridge took up. Isn't that crazy. That might be over doing it.

Im not sure what kind of trees you have but
have a friend working with a forester who
turned the forest into a cash crop.he uses
cattle to keep out the brush and then harvest
only mature trees .then with controled grazing
let new trees get started the trees them selves
have changed over the years with more
profitable trees establishing themselves

If you are a real crop farmer, trees are just weeds.

Having said that, a patch of woods is great, and can be used
for firewood or nature and if you can afford it then enjoy it.

But, several patches scattered through out an area, that is a
real mess, a real burden on any sort of crop farming.

Square fields are so much nicer. And tree borders, you realize
you lose about 4-6 rows all the way along the trees, so with
long meandering tree patches you are really short changing
the crop land.

Nothing wrong with doing that, but you need to understand
what you are giving up that way. Crop land here is worth
$9000 an acre, or $300+ a year rent, not everyone can afford
to do that.

Enjoy your land as you see fit, as you can afford.

Paul

Here if I cut the trees would just have rocks and
ledges.

I agree 100%. We have a mix of woods and cropland. Since we don't farm for a living we have left it that way. The woods gives the kids a place to play and build forts, and makes for some good deer hunting. IT really makes a big difference in field work time if you have big square fields vs odd shaped around the woods. I always had small odd shaped fields and a couple of years ago I picked up one big 8 acre square. I was amazed that I could mow that big square 8 acres in the same amount of time it took me to do 5 acres at home...

If I had a farm that was all arable land, then I'd have few trees. But my farm is 342 acres, about 60 tillable and 60ish in rough pasture. The rest is woods, rock and swamp. We don't have problems with woods so much as scrub brush taking over pasture and meadows. I can tell you clearing brush and woods is a chore and half. Same for keeping fence lines clear. We don't use spray, we try to have the stock eating under the fence, if you know what I mean. But there isn't enough good fence to keep the stock where we want it, so it's normal to go through each spring, clear as section of fence line and repair the fence. Then we try to keep it clean in the future.

OTOH, I heat almost exclusively with wood. You can see we want the woods too.

Where I live the Canadian Shield isn't far away, whether you travel horizontally or vertically. My thoughts are the folk that were here before me cleared the best land to farm with means and tools that we'd never lower ourselves to use today, and left the rest because it was not good arable land then, and it's not now. Dad sold his bushlot some years ago and at the time had no interest in it, but now wish I had bought it.

Where I live the Canadian Shield isn't far away, whether you travel horizontally or vertically. My thoughts are the folk that were here before me cleared the best land to farm with means and tools that we'd never lower ourselves to use today, and left the rest because it was not good arable land then, and it's not now. Dad sold his bushlot some years ago and at the time had no interest in it, but now wish I had bought it.

I would clear so that my fields were big rectangles and leave wooded areas in the corners so that I would not have to back swath into them, LOL.

Don't gripe about low population levels of farm game species (quail, rabbits, pheasants) if you clean farm all fields.
Also, like others have said, most likely woodlots where left for a reason and that probably is because the soil is unproductive. Before I went through the expense of clearing a woodlot, I would at least have soil tests.

Back in the late 30's, my Dad worked for the FHA. They did not want to loan money on a farm that did not have a certain amount of woods on it. I have a spot on my place, that if I cleared it and picked up the rocks, I would have a mountain of rocks.
Richard in NW SC

Here in Nebraska it used to be that the
government paid you somehow to plant a
tree claim which was usually 40 acres.
These have all disappeared now. Now it is
rare to see trees anywhere where there is
productive farm ground. To make it seem
worse this is happening on the heels of 30
years of poor prices and little upkeep.
With the current prices as many fence
lines as possible have disappeared also.
Now there are many 160+ acre fields. Just
the way it is. I personally would like to
see some left, along with not tiling every
area that looks like it could someday be a
slough. However I don't make the land
payments or pay the taxes on it so its not
up to me. The land was purchased to make
money with not to make me happy

Wouldn't be a farm I'd want to own without some woods and some wide fence rows for wildlife shelter.Also I want some trees in pastures for the animals to hang out under in the heat of the day so the manure is there instead of under a shed someplace.Also a wide fence row with lots of
briars and multiflora rose along the roads will do more to keep tresspassers out than anything.

Have you ever cleared land???? Clearing forty acres is not an easy job to do even with large equipment.

There also are Federal and local laws on what you can and can not clear in many water sheds. So you need to do some home work on what your costs are going to be and what the legal issues will be.

A fellow a few miles from me cleared some ground about 15 years ago. He thumbed his nose at the local ACSC office. HE knocked himself out any farm payments on ALL of his ground for violating the rules on clearing ground/swamp busting. Even a change of ownership will not put that ground in compliance.

Now on the practical side of things:

1) Clearing land can easily cost $3000-5000 an acre if it has heavy trees in it. So unless you own the equipment yourself your looking at spending some serious money to clear it. Also is is not something that happens over night. You will fight roots and junk in the farm ground for years. I cleared a corner some 20 years ago and I still find wood in the field when we work that ground.

2) I try to keep fence rows clear that are around farm ground the trees will suck the water from crops grown close to them and shade them from the sun too.

3) Get a realistic value on what trees are already there. You may be money ahead to let good trees grow and harvest them later. Trees are a crop too if managed correctly. I have about 75 acres of wooded pasture. It has some very wooded areas and some that are just a tree here and there. I usually sell $5000-10000 of timber every few years out of it. Plus there is firewood if you need it or you can sell it.

4) Like some have stated. You need to really look at what the farm land value of the land your clearing is. If it is bluff rock with six inches of top soil then clearing it will gain you nothing at all. The trees that are there will grow better than any crop you will plant. The opposite is true too. The area may be a wet area that is too wet to farm. So it may need drainage systems installed. You have to worry about swamp busting there.

So think about these things long and hard before you start clearing thing out.

I also would be surprised that a farm of just 125 acres would have 40 acres of ground that would be good farm ground still in trees. Do not let land fever sway you to clearing marginal ground for a high cost and little return.

Also pay attention to YOUR wife not your father. You sleep with one and she owns half of what you do. PO her and you may own only half of that 125 acres.

The way agriculture is booming and forest products aren't I wish we wouldn't of planted the field to hybrid poplar! 15-20 years ago there was a concern about MN running out of wood fiber, so there was a push on to grow more trees faster. Now most of the board mills have shut down and some of the paper mills, so I don't know what we are going to do with the hybrids, they are only suitable for papermaking and not very good for that. The field was only 25 acres and stony and od shaped so it's no big deal.

69GMC, Here in Central Texas Where Trees, Brush, are the Norn. We have always visited with our Neighbors when building fence. 99% of the time the trees are usually smaller crappy trees and Getting rid of them was, and has not been a problem. only 1 time have I left a tree in a fence ROW simply it was that Huge and We felt it was a Crime to take out an Oak tree it would take 3 grown men to reach around! other than that our ROWs are 60 ft wide.
Wide enough so, If a major Over-story tree fell,it will not touch the fence. from either side. We keep it shredded down, New grass is growing where there was little to none before. Hunter have new shooting lane,,on our side. It is a win-win all the way around.
The trash trees and brush pushed up and burned the Oaks pushed over to the side to be cut up for fire wood later.
Leaving areas for wild life, game, migratory birds is always a good thing, A place where cattle go for shade in Summer or cover in winter makes the best use with the open fields for crops. No real wasted areas. Hope this helps.
Later,
John A.

I've lived long enough to see this place here, go from nothing but single row hedge/fence rows, clean fields, to forest, some of it young, but forest, there was at least 60 acres tillable here, some marginal with shale outcrops, but nice top soil in between and in most of the fields.

Wildlife is abundant, I've seen birds here that I never saw before. Deer and turkey thrive, I have a flock of 45 running the place, I've counted over 30 deer in the herd this winter. There are grouse or quail, can't recall which is which, but they have enough cover to make it, I always see them. Trees, there is a mature stand of 11 acres, old ones in hedge/fence rows, and what has grown in, provides in expensive heat, for the work of gathering it and processing it. So, the transition is something to appreciate for sure, but by the same token, I would like to see all those fields producing something, darned taxes drives that rationale, good quality hay would be a good crop, the fields always produced here, are well drained and with the soils that have built up, I am sure it would be great. To clear all that back, and clean the soil of roots, stumps and any large rock that may appear, would be an undertaking. A large dozer would knock it down quickly, but the clean up would be intense, hired out, sure they would fell, bunch - stack or grind, you still have stumps, roots, so a D8 size tractor with a Fleco type root rake would be the next step.

I've often thought of expanding in sections, where the vegetation is the thinnest, but leaving the rest for future consideration, there is a lot of birch and poplar, but I have some nice oak coming in and black cherry is abundant, so is apple, I have a 15 acre hill side loaded with black cherry and apple, haven for wildlife. That was an open field/pasture we used to keep it cut, I just cut a logging path through it, to clean out all the recent dead elm, 20" 30 + years, sad, real nice trees too, but I got them all out, maybe the others won't get D.E.D., I had hoped to leave them be.

What is amazing to me, is that this place was idle for a very long time and even around where the house and barns were, is wooded and not young trees. Areas that were clear, in use, I have photos that are incredible, late 60's everything was clear, now its like a jungle, canopy and all. So I've lived long enough to see it from open and clear to be able to harvest 30+ year old 20"-24" elm (D.E.D. caused) and other hardwoods such as hard maple from just the old barnyard, I've got a huge cluster of hard maple, several cord in there right now, whole thing blew over last September in a heavy storm.

I too am hesitant to clear cut now, because its got some resource and wildlife value, the latter of which fills my freezer. I don't believe that even with some clearing, the wildlife will be less, so somewhere there is a happy medium. Ideally if it was all in hay, I could pay the taxes off with it and pay for the expense of doing the hay, equipment acquisition would figure in one or 2 years depending on what was bought, would need a pole barn too, so the initial costs would be significant, the pay off with all the work, would take a few years, + weather + repairs, maintenance etc. I don't think the trees would be able to provide that income annually, even with all thats there, selling saw logs or firewood, including low price softwood, which actually does sell, still not enough and there is a finite amount, even with regrowth, its more of a limited resource as I use it to heat.

I am never so flattered as when someone says I got them thinking! I want to weigh in here again. Just to be clear, this year I celebrate my 25th year in business. That business centers around consulting with others who are in business as well as accounting and tax. I have taught business and accounting off and on at the college in Lansing where my conservative views did not always make me popular with my abundant peers. I tell you this to make it clear...I am not a tree hugger and I do understand the economics involved here. Before I got this post up JDSellers put his post in and, frankly, it puts a lot of what I wanted to say out there in an intelligent and coherent manner that makes it unnecessary for me to repeat it now. Let me just add a few of my own thoughts.

If you stand in most cathedrals in Europe and look up, you will see how the columns along the walls split and arch over your head. This was not original design and was not done by accident. It duplicates something you can see in every mature woods. There is a spiritual aspect of the woodlot that many of us can see and feel and it has influenced architecture and the arts for centuries. There are those of us who feel very close to our maker when we walk a wooded path.

Second, a mature tree is one of the few things you can remove at will...but not replace at will. If you or your wife find later that the removal of the woodlot has detracted from the quality of your life on the farm, you will not be able to put it back in your lifetime.

Third, I find myself visiting the garden center and picking up the odd shade plant and poking it in some secluded spot, checking on it, railing about the deer and, in general, making a short season hobby out of a wild garden. My wife has a lane she particularly loves and one year I got a hold of 200 bulbs and planted them randomly along the edge of the tree line. The following Spring they were quite a show and a nice surprise. Right now, in this miserable winter, everyone in the house is waiting for those daffodils to come up again...thicker every year.

Lastly, while things are booming lately and the tendency is to think it will continue for ever...it won't. Trust me on this one. Bad times will return and the quarter million dollar tractors and shiny new bins that are appearing everywhere will not be so appealing to those who are still paying for them. THEN, your woodlot will heat your house, put meat on your table, shelter you from wind, provide extra cash, etc etc.

I understand that it is in the way of big equipment and have seen corn yields of 80 bushel along the tree line. But it does give something back for what it takes. Tree hugging is indeed a mental illness, but so is the rapacious pursuit of more and more money, no matter what you give up to get it. Enjoy your land. You are one of us privileged few who get the opportunity to make decisions of this nature.

Here every farm has a large wood lot, it's how farmers earn a
living in the winter. We have one too but it needs work. I can't
cut enough firewood to keep up with the thinning, may hire a
logger with harvester to do some work.

I like trees--they hide my cash crop. Just kidding of course.

Well, I do like trees. I can see where they could be viewed as unproductive land if you could make a lot of money farming it but from a lifestyle standpoint I like the privacy/buffer zone between me and others. I like the shade and the lawn tractor (my 4 wheeler) rides in the woods.

If you don't need it as crop ground, you might want to hire a forester to mark it for thinning. Get the junk wood out, while preserving the canopy.
We do this with our woodlot, 5 acres at a time, and it really promotes the valuable timber growth.
Pete

I grew up in pretty much open country; the only trees around were just enough around farm places to qualify for "Tree Claim Rights" under the Homestead laws.

Since that time numerous shelter belts have been planted to reduce soil erosion. As for woods, if the land is suitable for crop production and not subject to soil erosion, I would clear the woods and grow crops. Just my opinion.

I really doubt you would ever recover your costs from clearing the land. I would square up the corners and leave the bulk in timber.

I don't know where you live but here in MI at this point in history, if you find woods, it is still woods for a reason. It is either wet-land , sand/stoney ground , Indian burial ground , full of rock/gravel etc. If it were productive farm ground it more than likely is already being farmed. Some are starting to clear wet land woods and spending the money to tile it but how many years before the break even point? Gotta be a reason it's still woods. I'd figure that out first.

(quoted from post at 01:12:19 03/04/14) Im not sure what kind of trees you have but
have a friend working with a forester who
turned the forest into a cash crop.he uses
cattle to keep out the brush and then harvest
only mature trees .then with controled grazing
let new trees get started the trees them selves
have changed over the years with more
profitable trees establishing themselves

Click to expand...

Not much money up here in selling timber, most of what I have is nice spruce timber, but there are so many affordable timber sales on state land that they pay very little for standing timber, and are not willing to put the hours in to selectively log, either, so it is generally a mess when they are done. Everything big enough to be usable that I am clearing, I am harvesting myself. My polebarn is built entirely out of wood I logged off the place, and a friend cut the lumber on his band mill. I'm also working on building a log house, so not much is going to waste!

(quoted from post at 01:34:49 03/04/14) If you are a real crop farmer, trees are just weeds.

Having said that, a patch of woods is great, and can be used
for firewood or nature and if you can afford it then enjoy it.

But, several patches scattered through out an area, that is a
real mess, a real burden on any sort of crop farming.

Square fields are so much nicer. And tree borders, you realize
you lose about 4-6 rows all the way along the trees, so with
long meandering tree patches you are really short changing
the crop land.

Nothing wrong with doing that, but you need to understand
what you are giving up that way. Crop land here is worth
$9000 an acre, or $300+ a year rent, not everyone can afford
to do that.

Enjoy your land as you see fit, as you can afford.

Paul

Click to expand...

I know where you are coming from, and this is exactly what I was wondering when I posted the question, how many think this way, and how many prefer the woods. If I was in your neck of the woods I might look at it differently, but I paid $750/acre, and bigger pieces are around $500/acre. As for the irregular fields, would have cleared the place a little different myself, but I have to work with what is already done. I would have cleared south of the house and left the timber to the north so the house gets the sunlight and the view of the fields, they built the house in the woods, and cleared to the east and north? Some of that is gonna change, I want to look over my fields drinking coffee in the morning

The other justification for not clearing the last 20-25 acres is that I am working towards 800-1200 workable acres, so I have quite a ways to go, and 20 acres would be a very small percentage of what I am after, and the home place is gonna be exactly that, home, not the bulk of the tillable land by a long shot.

(quoted from post at 06:41:34 03/04/14) Have you ever cleared land???? Clearing forty acres is not an easy job to do even with large equipment.

There also are Federal and local laws on what you can and can not clear in many water sheds. So you need to do some home work on what your costs are going to be and what the legal issues will be.

A fellow a few miles from me cleared some ground about 15 years ago. He thumbed his nose at the local ACSC office. HE knocked himself out any farm payments on ALL of his ground for violating the rules on clearing ground/swamp busting. Even a change of ownership will not put that ground in compliance.

Now on the practical side of things:

1) Clearing land can easily cost $3000-5000 an acre if it has heavy trees in it. So unless you own the equipment yourself your looking at spending some serious money to clear it. Also is is not something that happens over night. You will fight roots and junk in the farm ground for years. I cleared a corner some 20 years ago and I still find wood in the field when we work that ground.

2) I try to keep fence rows clear that are around farm ground the trees will suck the water from crops grown close to them and shade them from the sun too.

3) Get a realistic value on what trees are already there. You may be money ahead to let good trees grow and harvest them later. Trees are a crop too if managed correctly. I have about 75 acres of wooded pasture. It has some very wooded areas and some that are just a tree here and there. I usually sell $5000-10000 of timber every few years out of it. Plus there is firewood if you need it or you can sell it.

4) Like some have stated. You need to really look at what the farm land value of the land your clearing is. If it is bluff rock with six inches of top soil then clearing it will gain you nothing at all. The trees that are there will grow better than any crop you will plant. The opposite is true too. The area may be a wet area that is too wet to farm. So it may need drainage systems installed. You have to worry about swamp busting there.

So think about these things long and hard before you start clearing thing out.

I also would be surprised that a farm of just 125 acres would have 40 acres of ground that would be good farm ground still in trees. Do not let land fever sway you to clearing marginal ground for a high cost and little return.

Also pay attention to YOUR wife not your father. You sleep with one and she owns half of what you do. PO her and you may own only half of that 125 acres.

Click to expand...

I have cleared land, currently I have been using rented equipment and operating it myself, and my cost per acre is averaging $550/acre and a lot of sweat, logging off the big stuff myself which makes the dozer work go quite a bit faster.

As for the suitability of the ground, and legality, we are still basically on the frontier as far as agriculture is concerned, the state of Alaska is still selling raw sections as farmland, to be cleared from scratch. My place was never cleared further because the original owner was basically a hobby farmer, and only cleared enough to prove up his homestead. In my area there has been around 20,000 acres cleared since the '80s, and still more being cleared.

What I was wondering about was not so much the feasibility of clearing, I know that it can be done, but rather wondering how many leave a wood lot just for the pleasure more than practical reasons. I like being able to walk in my own woods, and if I was strictly after the most money, I would stay working in the oilfield where I am this winter, it is way more money for less work than farming!