- Thread starter schrade
- Start date
notjustair
Well-known Member
My heat pump would need substantial warm air movement - the outdoor unit is pretty big. I guess it would work but you would spend some bucks heating that much air. I wonder if you could install the unit in a garage with a wood stove in it? Wouldn't help in the summer but any amount of warmth would help out here right now. It is to get to -15 tonight.
spacecadet9
Member
A heat pump takes heat from the air, and blows colder air out the other end (so to speak). I don't think that idea, as stated, will work.
My idea uses earth tubes to warm/cool (depending on season) a structure, shed/garage, with the heat pump in that structure. I think the heat pump might have to exhaust to the outside.
Only 3 things stopping me from trying my idea. 1: I don't have a heat pump 2: I don't have an enclosed out building 3: I don't have the money for the pump, building, or earth tubes
M-MAN
Well-known Member
- Location
- Bostic, NC
What is he hoping to gain? The heat the unit is moving is coming from air blown across the inside coil or outside coil. All the compressor is doing is moving heat from one of those coils to the other. It won't run any hotter by adding heat to the compressor.
From what I have heard about heat pumps in my region from people that have them is that they do well until the winter really sets in and then they have to rely on alternate heat sources. So my question is are they worth the money to install or are they just a fad when fuel prices rise? Curious.
He would have to heat the heat source and not the compressor. I don't know how it could be done on a ground source.
If he is talking about air source, it becomes a more interesting question. Bottom line, the house requires a quantifiable number of BTU’s the heat the house. If my thinking is correct these must come from the 60 degree source and I am not sure anything is accomplished. Anybody have any thoughts on this.
I heat my house with 100% ground source geothermal in central Minnesota with no backup and it is the only way to heat in my opinion. The system has been pushed hard with this year’s cold winter, but it hangs in there. I am currently looking at adding an air source unit in my shop and the question is interesting.
If he is talking about air source, it becomes a more interesting question. Bottom line, the house requires a quantifiable number of BTU’s the heat the house. If my thinking is correct these must come from the 60 degree source and I am not sure anything is accomplished. Anybody have any thoughts on this.
I heat my house with 100% ground source geothermal in central Minnesota with no backup and it is the only way to heat in my opinion. The system has been pushed hard with this year’s cold winter, but it hangs in there. I am currently looking at adding an air source unit in my shop and the question is interesting.
spacecadet9
Member
irst they are heat/cool pumps. Meaning they heat in the colder months and function as central AC in the hotter months.
From what I've read and been told by dealers, a heat pump will stop working when the outdoor temps are in the 20's. So, it depends on what a 'normal' winter is in your area. Around here there 'might' be a few weeks, from late Dec thru early Feb, that a heat pump 'might' not be able to operate. 'Normally' the furnace might be turned on in late Oct or early Nov and shut off sometime in April or May. This year definitely has not been 'normal'. My windshield washer fluid, rated for -20 deg, froze in the car this year.
BTW: I do have an out building, it's around 15'x50', open on the south, and is 200' from the house.
Geo-TH,In
Well-known Member
Most air to air heat pumps cost around $7500, use back up electric. I know 2 people who have them paid over $500 the last two months. I have simple electric base board and my last two month, 64 days, cost me $615.
What some fail to mention, when a heat pump goes into a defrost cycle, it is air conditioning your house. So you are paying twice, once to heat your house and then again to air condition it.
I know a fellow whe installed an outside boiler, $15000. That doesn't make sense either.
If you spent money on insulation, windows and doors, you would save money every month and not work so hard.
Build a better house, it can be done. I build my first super insulated total electric home in 1985. Tenants can't believe how warm the place is. How cheap the electric bills are too.
What some fail to mention, when a heat pump goes into a defrost cycle, it is air conditioning your house. So you are paying twice, once to heat your house and then again to air condition it.
I know a fellow whe installed an outside boiler, $15000. That doesn't make sense either.
If you spent money on insulation, windows and doors, you would save money every month and not work so hard.
Build a better house, it can be done. I build my first super insulated total electric home in 1985. Tenants can't believe how warm the place is. How cheap the electric bills are too.
For what it is worth?,Amana Co.had a combo gas-heat pump back in the 80s that used a burner to heat the outdoor unit.Only had it maybe 5 yrs.Also a Canada Co.was at some trade shows with (almost)the same idea with a gas burner that came on when the temp.got so low and heated the A-Coil they were using on the outdoor unit.Why they didn't fly is ?????because their ratings were far better then anything out there now.
Well first of all when the unit goes in defrost that is only the part out side changes nothing inside. New 2800 sq ft house in central Tennessee. Heat pump runs on heat pump till outside temp hits 24 deg. Most heating bill are actually less than the cooling in August. This winter has been a little unusual but all and all electric heat pump is a good deal in this area for two reasons our normal winters are 30s night and 50 days so heat pump works and we are also in a cheap electricity area. My winter bills run $ 130.00 to $ 150.oo with electric water heater and cooking.
Chris Jones
Member
Technically it does. When it goes into AC mode to defrost the outside unit it turns on the heat strips/backup heat so the air now being cooled by the indoor coils (it's in AC/defrost mode) doesn't come out cold in the house. The only difference between defrost and AC is defrost doesn't run the outdoor fan. Not running the outdoor fan allows the outdoor coils to heat up faster melting any frost/ice so it can switch back to heat mode.
This time spent in defrost mode is not significant enough to hurt the efficiency of a heatpump over say electric baseboard or these days even propane heat.
This time spent in defrost mode is not significant enough to hurt the efficiency of a heatpump over say electric baseboard or these days even propane heat.
Chris Jones
Member
Sure it'll work. The heatpump will love running in 60 degree air.
Well, IF that little heater could actually pull enough power to keep that enclosure when the heatpump is sucking the heat out in massive amounts. Those heatpump coils get COLD and they move a LOT of air over them to warm them. Say that little heater made the enclosure 60 degrees, the heatpump switches on and it would cool that room in seconds and that little heater would not be able to make a dent. The heapump would then be unable to find enough heat to be effective at all and eventually it'd resort to using backup/strip heat.
Also from just a logical standpoint IT IS A STUPID IDEA. Essentially he's going to pay to use electrical resistance heat to heat the air in an enclosure then use the heatpump to pump that heat into the house--it'd be far more efficient to just use the electrical resistance heat in his house.
Well, IF that little heater could actually pull enough power to keep that enclosure when the heatpump is sucking the heat out in massive amounts. Those heatpump coils get COLD and they move a LOT of air over them to warm them. Say that little heater made the enclosure 60 degrees, the heatpump switches on and it would cool that room in seconds and that little heater would not be able to make a dent. The heapump would then be unable to find enough heat to be effective at all and eventually it'd resort to using backup/strip heat.
Also from just a logical standpoint IT IS A STUPID IDEA. Essentially he's going to pay to use electrical resistance heat to heat the air in an enclosure then use the heatpump to pump that heat into the house--it'd be far more efficient to just use the electrical resistance heat in his house.
Chris Jones
Member
It's not like they quit working--it's just a figure where it's generally assumed they might not be able to move enough heat to meet the needs of your house. They continue to generate heat but they might need backup strips to help. That doesn't mean it's not worth it to let the heatpump function generate what it can. The energy and heat consumed in defrost mode is still far less than what it's adding to your house.
missouri massey man
Member
If there is an unlimited supply of 60 degree air available within that structure that costs nothing to produce, then yes it is viable. If you have to pay to raise that unlimited supply to that 60 degree temp it becomes a moot point. By "unlimited" I mean the quantity of 60 degree warm air available would have to at the very minimum be adequate to match the rate of the heat loss of the house at the design temp of the system... In the middle midwestern states that design temp is 5 F for heating and 95 F for cooling.
When a heat load calculation is performed for a heat pump, there is a "balance point" below which the heat pump cannot adequately supply enough heat to satisfy the heat loss requirement. At that point, typically strip heat is then staged on to compensate. Some manufacturers allow the HP to continue to operate and others lock them off at that point.
Twelve miles north of me is a series of huge caves used for warehouse space for a tire shop. The owner of the shop built a monstrous house on top of the cave and had air to air heat pumps installed with the outdoor units inside the caves where the temperature is a continual 56 degrees year around. He has a very efficient system(s) due to this free unlimited "indoor" supply of reasonably warm air to transfer "heat" from in the winter and a resonably cool air to transfer heat "to" in the summer.
So the answer to your question is yes, if the available heat content is free and within the realm of temp that won't be detrimental to the cooling cycle in the summer.
When a heat load calculation is performed for a heat pump, there is a "balance point" below which the heat pump cannot adequately supply enough heat to satisfy the heat loss requirement. At that point, typically strip heat is then staged on to compensate. Some manufacturers allow the HP to continue to operate and others lock them off at that point.
Twelve miles north of me is a series of huge caves used for warehouse space for a tire shop. The owner of the shop built a monstrous house on top of the cave and had air to air heat pumps installed with the outdoor units inside the caves where the temperature is a continual 56 degrees year around. He has a very efficient system(s) due to this free unlimited "indoor" supply of reasonably warm air to transfer "heat" from in the winter and a resonably cool air to transfer heat "to" in the summer.
So the answer to your question is yes, if the available heat content is free and within the realm of temp that won't be detrimental to the cooling cycle in the summer.
Geo-TH,In
Well-known Member
My son just installed a new trane this year. His house is smaller than mine, his electric bill is more than mine, over $200 more.
So, just how more efficient late model heat pumps when they spend a lot of time in defrost?
You won't sell me a heat pump that air conditions in the winter, costs a pant load to install, will at about last 15 years. NO THANK YOU!
Get back to me in 15 years after you've replaced yours.
So, just how more efficient late model heat pumps when they spend a lot of time in defrost?
You won't sell me a heat pump that air conditions in the winter, costs a pant load to install, will at about last 15 years. NO THANK YOU!
Get back to me in 15 years after you've replaced yours.
I installed a new heatpump furnace 1979 with backup electric heat built in. I replaced it in 2011 and it was still operating. The furnace was replaced because it was rusted out at the bottom and because I got a deal on furnace and ac unit that was taken to a job site and uncrated to find out it was the wrong one for that installation. The new heatpump also has backup electric heat.
In climates where heat and ac is needed it seems practical to me to have duct work for both systems and not separate for ac and heat.
I also have a wood furnace in the basement which has been really hungry this winter.
In climates where heat and ac is needed it seems practical to me to have duct work for both systems and not separate for ac and heat.
I also have a wood furnace in the basement which has been really hungry this winter.
Geo-TH,In
Well-known Member
Getting 32 years on a heat pump, where I live is unheard of. Boy's HP was 16 years old. CPA's didn't last 15.
The electric company used to give a price break for December, January, and Feburary because the heat pumps had to be turned off and to to back up electric, making them attractive for people to buy one.
My last month's rate for electric was $.10/kw-hr.
My sister, her husband, 2 kids have been in the HVAC business in Northern Indiana for 30 years, where it's not that really that pratical for air to air heat pumps. Only my one nephew has a geo-heat pump in his new house. Sister and son use natural gas.
In Florida, same sister heats with electric. Now does that tell you anything about what people who make their living in the business think about heat pumps?
The electric company used to give a price break for December, January, and Feburary because the heat pumps had to be turned off and to to back up electric, making them attractive for people to buy one.
My last month's rate for electric was $.10/kw-hr.
My sister, her husband, 2 kids have been in the HVAC business in Northern Indiana for 30 years, where it's not that really that pratical for air to air heat pumps. Only my one nephew has a geo-heat pump in his new house. Sister and son use natural gas.
In Florida, same sister heats with electric. Now does that tell you anything about what people who make their living in the business think about heat pumps?
That actually doesn't tell me anything about heatpumps. what you have is two heat sources from one unit plus ac.
When I bought the first one they talked about different climate zones and we were supposedly in the northern-most zone for using one. I was happy with mine and that's the reason I purchased another one. It is efficient heat in the spring and fall when temperatures are chilly to moderate like 30-60 degrees.
When I bought the first one they talked about different climate zones and we were supposedly in the northern-most zone for using one. I was happy with mine and that's the reason I purchased another one. It is efficient heat in the spring and fall when temperatures are chilly to moderate like 30-60 degrees.
Geo-TH,In
Well-known Member
I will agree a heat pump is efficient from 30-60 degrees. Which requires very few BTU's to heat a home.
When you need the heat pump the most in the winter, sub zero temps, hi temp is not above freezing, they don't work, you have to go to back up heat. This for me would mean, Dec, Jan, Feb, the heat pump won't work. Seems crazy to me to invest $7500 in something that won't work when you need it the most.
I can see why your compressor lasted a long time, you don't use in the winter.
When you need the heat pump the most in the winter, sub zero temps, hi temp is not above freezing, they don't work, you have to go to back up heat. This for me would mean, Dec, Jan, Feb, the heat pump won't work. Seems crazy to me to invest $7500 in something that won't work when you need it the most.
I can see why your compressor lasted a long time, you don't use in the winter.
I think you are missing the point on this. First of all my replacement furnace cost about $2700 installed to existing duct work and your point about not being able to use it in the winter is a given in some climates that's why there is a back up system. You can use water in your vehicle radiator but I don't advise it if you live in northern zones.
We are in Northeast PA. 7 year old 2100 sq foot well-insulated home. Our heat pump is great down to about 35 degrees or so. When the lows are below 40 degrees out we burn wood with an indoor stove. Normal winter we burn 4-5 cords.
I would do the heat pump again in a heartbeat. It provides ac in the summer and heats when above 40 degrees so cheaply it isn't worth the time to cut wood. It's also a nice back-up in the cold months if we want to go away.
I would do the heat pump again in a heartbeat. It provides ac in the summer and heats when above 40 degrees so cheaply it isn't worth the time to cut wood. It's also a nice back-up in the cold months if we want to go away.
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