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EPA wood stove proposal prompts backlash article

"The National Firewood Association, based in Duluth, Minn., says some of the pollution from wood-burning stoves could be reduced if people would burn only aged wood rather than wood with too much wet sap."

"A properly burning wood fire - there's virtually no smoke or smell," said Executive Director Scott Salveson.

Per the above quoted from the article:

Is it not that simple ?

Here it is, even at start up using dry kindling, there is no doubt, dry seasoned wood is a must and works best, there is no visible smoke or soot.

Higher efficiency wood gasification and or simliar, is that not what should be the issue ? Conserves resources, a smoldering fire can be changed easily with dry wood. Restriction does nothing here as usual, same with gun control. Why not educate those who do not use wood burning, (old or new) properly, per the above, you'll get better results, you can't tell me 12 million wood stove users are just plain ignorant or are they ?
 
I agree with the sentiments in the article. This is what happened the first time the EPA put restrictions on new "wood-stoves." Prices went way up for new EPA rated stoves and also for used non-EPA rated stoves. But isn't that pretty much happening to everything? Look at gas and diesel fuel prices. How about cars and trucks? When I was a teen I could buy a new car for 1/6 my annual income. Now? Hmmm. Yeah, it would work if I made $150,000 - $200,000 a year but I don't and never will. The EPA will get its way sooner or later and we all will pay for it. Easy fix if worried is just get an older wood-stove and hang onto it. I have a lifetime supply. I do the same with cars,trucks, and tractors so why not heating equipment?
 
Not all "smoldering" fires can be fixed by using only dry wood. I usually have my wood cut 2-3 years before I burn it. And yeah - on cold days when the fire is running full bore -it burns clean. But when the weather is not all that cold -and the air intake gets partially closed - the chimney temp gets colder and creosote will form. Makes no matter how dry that wood is. We deal with it by having two wood heat sources in the house. A large wood furnace and a smaller wood-stove. When temps are not real cold -we use the stove running hot instead of the furnace running turned-down. But we can't do that ALL the time.
 
Yep price of every thing has gotten out of control and just flat or crazy. As for things like wood stoves I build my own that way no one knows I have one LOL
 
Ugh. I don't have a dog in this fight, but I still only made it halfway thru the article before I got mad. Is it burning wood a completely carbon-neutral event? The trees took the carbon out of the air when they were growing and stored it. I spose up here in the frigid winter with very little sunlight and not enough wind, we're just supposed to hang out til it gets warmer? Not sposta burn propane, coal, or diesel either. Screw it. I'm gonna swing by the welding supply house, buy a big ole bottle of CO2 and let er rip out in the parking lot.
 
so if I'm reading this correctly, what one sees coming out the chimney is nothing but heated up/burnt sap which is 90% water which means it is pretty much all steam. One is still burning the same load of wood whether it is wet or dry,it's just that the wet wood has to "steam out" first , then burn. So what people are seeing/complaining about is 90% steam and 10% burnt sap ( which is where the smell comes from). Here again, they just go for the "low hanging fruit" and all the other fruit on the tree (the 80% which constitutes the REAL polluters of the world) just pay them off and the little guy gets screwed again.Here in MI we have "controlled burn" of hundreds of acres every year. Of course it's all pollutant free/particulate free and no carbon emissions. All the wood stoves in MI would never equal the "controlled burn". Just more BS! Someone , including the company I used to work for , want's legislation passed so they can begin selling huge expensive gasification units. They all know the best way to create a market is through legislation/pay-ola. There's a million dollar assembly line just sitting idle right now to build these things(I have personally seen it and helped build it)just waiting for the "legislation". (I'm retired now so can't get fired for divulging this) besides doesn't it create polutants if you "fire" someone?lol
 
Why would anyone want to buy a wood stove that's not efficient? I like to cut wood but not that well! We have a stove that is well within the guidelines, and I wouldn't want anything less efficient. Remember, it's only on new stove purchases, not ones in place. As far as building your own, if you put it in a building you will have a hard time legally get insurance, and if you lie about it, it's insurance fraud. Remember, you are polluting the air that we all breath, so it is everybody's business!
 
Here in central IL they are planning on building a pipeline to pipe CO2 from coal burning plants to store underground at another location. The Koch brothers are realy stiring the pot this year - from this to ethonal and everything in between.
 
Why would anyone want to buy a wood stove that's not efficient?

That's my thought. Everybody seems to want to try to show how virile they are by telling how much wood they cut instead of bragging about how little they have to.
 
Now, now, that will solve the problem, won't it! You are right, wood is carbon neutral, it doesn't matter if it lies on the ground and rots, or if you burn it, it gives off the same amount of CO2. I think the biggest concern is the particulates, and they will kill you. I know where you live you don't think that's a problem, but it all contributes, and we all breath the same air. We just got back from the warm SW, and when you sit on a mountain top overlooking a major city you can really see the pollution, and when you wake up in the morning you have to blow it out of your nose. It's nice to be back in N MN for the clean air, even if it is so cold. Let's work together to try to Keep it as clean as we can!
 
What will likely happen is just what the article mentions........Some states will just declare the new EPA regulations to be null and void.
Then a wood stove maker will be in that state, like Missouri and say......F/U to the EPA, the state legislature says we do not have to comply to your B/S. Everyone in Missouri will buy their new wood stoves from the company that is making what they want......for the price they want to pay.
Or wood stove manufacturing will go underground, my cousin Earl makes stoves out behind the Still on his 40 acres.
 
We can argue the details of the latest EPA edict, but the bottom line is, if you vote for liberals/communists, this is what you get.
 
my guess is that most of these regs. are coming from the wood boilers that sit outside, I know of a couple of these that sit in small housing developments and there are times when I drive by that I thank god I don't live near these people, looks like a large fog bank, I can only imagine what the neighbors are going through.
 
I hear you loud and clear, Russ. BUT...what about China, Japan, India, Russia and all the other developing countries that could give a rodent's posterior about emissions and particulate matter. Do we not share the atmosphere with them? That's what bugs me. Our tax dollars going towards cleaning up our air and water when few others seem to give a darn. I know whining on the internet is waste of my energy, so I'll quit for now. You got the wind up there today, too?
 
Yes we have wind, we are getting the pollution directly from the ND coal power plants! I don't think Japan is a big contributor to world pollution, but china is for sure. Recently it was in the news that a Chinese city had pollution so bad that you couldn't recognize a face at 30 feet, do we want to be like that? It will get them, their medical costs will go up, and they will have to conform to the ways of the developed world.
 
I only glanced at the article. I've got an outside boiler and it does put out some smoke. If I lived in town it could be a problem but that should be left up to each community as to what kind of ordinance to have for wood stoves. The federal government shouldn't have a say in the matter. There is a small percentage of people that heat with wood anyway. I would bet that the environmentalist do more harm to the atmosphere by flying around in their jets and driving their SUV's than all the wood stoves in the country. The government already has prescribed burns of woodlands, I guess that don't make smoke. :roll:
 
I just hope they put all their eggs in the "nnalert basket" for 2016. That would cement a win for conservatives once and for all. She will be the easiest to beat. (as long as conservatives get their head out of their a$$ )
 
Too bad congress won't simplyvote to defund the EPA...simply another government program that's gotten out of hand. I'd vote for anyone who would promise to defund the EPA and mothball Air Force One.
 
I think the wood stove ban would get about as far as the gun ban in my state. About everyone I know owns several guns and at least one wood stove. They won't take either one until they pry my cold dead or frozen fingers off the trigger or stove door handle, which ever it may be.
 
Gary, just today the US Forestry was doing another controlled burn on the Shawnee behind our place. One of the foresters told me they were gonna burn the whole area, one piece at a time. I guess their smoke is somehow different than my smoke, ha.
 
I know polls don't mean much now but the latest one shows her ahead of any Rep. canidate by at least 15 points. I hope this changes.
 
I read that these regulations were in place since 1988, but not enforced. It also seems like governors are asking for cleanup.

Please correct me if I am wrong.
 
If people would spend as much time writing to their elected representatives as they did replying to this post they would be more effective.
 
I don't care to read the article, my stove is exempt from EPA standards as its an indoor wood boiler. The gov/ epa is getting out of control with this type of thing, go after 2cycle engines, wood stoves, cars, trucks, coal, windmills, ect. It's a big joke.
 
50 years ago, epa/government started hanging air polution controls on cars. Everyone pitched a fit then, kind of like they are doing now. It will increase the costs of cars, no one will be able to afford them. I'll just pull all the hoses off my car, remove the cadillac (catalytic) converter. The epa is stupid, they don't know what they are doing.

It may have taken 50 years, but cars today are light years ahead of the cars of the 60's. Who would have thought the cars today can get up to 50 mpg, meet epa's requiredments, and people can afford them.

30 years ago I knew a guy that had a small wood burner inside his house and a catalytic converter on the chimney. He said there was more heat coming off the converter than than the stove.

So, what happened to putting converters in wood burners?

Wood can be burned cleanly, so what's the big deal? I'll bet in 50 years, wood burners will be like cars, they will improve, things will be better.

I found it interesting to read that more poor people heat with wood. 2% heat exculsive with wood, no other heat source.

My father used wood as a supplement. I WILL NEVER HEAT WITH WOOD. I'm glad no one in my neighbor hood heats with wood and stinks up my air.
 
That's funny, I'm far from poor, but I heat with wood 95%, ya, I put the other $3000 I save from heating with wood vs heating this place with oil in my pocket! Lol, no joke.
 
I didn't write the article. I'm sure there are exceptions.


The few people I know that burn, live in a poor neighbor hood. Some are shacks on a river bank.

I could post a pic of a house, shack, with logs in they yard. The house across the street is burned out, wood burner.
 
I think a lot of other countries, being the standard of living has raised in them, is a contributing factor in what is considered to be more pollution world wide. The electric company put an article in their magazine about the EPA wanting and or will be shutting down coal power plants for electricity production. From what the article said there is no way the coal plants can comply with the regulations. Its funny how an organization can say this is what you will do...we don't know how you will but you will.
 
So in your particular set up, its not getting the same air flow, per say, less oxygen, spring and fall, or similar mild days in the winter, then not burning at the ideal temp, so you switch off to the stove.

I've never encountered that with any stoves, or fireplaces, but certainly having the draft screwed up because of the weather, just takes slightly longer to get the fire up and then settled in to a nice burn. A couple weeks back I forgot to open the air flow on the door of the stove, and was burning 1 year seasoned, single stacked, now very dry, but was fresh cut elm no punk. That elm will burn real hot, I have to be careful with it, yet not enough air, it was annoying outside, nice blue hue, so I went in opened 'er up and it clears right up. I think when it comes to ones stove, its a bit of Artisans work or firebox management that makes them work the best LOL ! That and seasoned wood no doubt !
 
So you relate people who burn wood with being poor? I'm glad your not my busy body neighbor. Around here people burn wood and laugh about how much money they are saving not buying propane. I'm saving $400/month once I quit buying propane and the house is warmer inside too.
 
If you burn wood and stink up my air, I'm very glad you're not my neighbor. You saved $400 dollars by burning wood. My last month's electric bill was $316 and the month before was $300. That's $616 for a total of 64 days. About $10 a for a record cold winter isn't bad for a total electric 2100 sq ft home with basement.

I can afford to pay that.

KEEP IN MIND THE ARTICLE SAID MOSTLY POOR PEOPLE BURN WOOD.

I think more local governments are putting a ban on burning than the EPA, yet people are pitching about the epa.

Where I live the city has a ban on burning leafs and smoking. The state followed with a smoking ban. Some state have a smoking ban on diesels.
 
(quoted from post at 18:05:36 02/26/14) If people would spend as much time writing to their elected representatives as they did replying to this post they would be more effective.
Click to expand...

Ain't that the truth! But it's a lot easier to sit around complaining than it is to make a phone call or write a letter.
 
(quoted from post at 18:05:36 02/26/14) If people would spend as much time writing to their elected representatives as they did replying to this post they would be more effective.
Click to expand...

agree
'They' are very smart and have lots of time to get their way.
They operate the same on all things they don't like. pick one.
bans or restrictions on whatever, but leaving 'existing' and 'used' ones alone at first.
That keeps the majority (where the power is)
out of the fight.
"It don't affect me..who cares"
Then licensing and taxes and inspections, on 'existing' will follow.
They do it time and time again here in NY.
Remember a ban on anything, while leaving existing ones alone,
is just a one generation ban.
when current stock wears out and owners pass away, the ban is total.
If you have ever sat around a campfire, or burned a pile of sticks in your yard...write your representative now.
(both illegal here without a permit...)
 
(quoted from post at 05:53:41 02/27/14) If you burn wood and stink up my air, I'm very glad you're not my neighbor. You saved $400 dollars by burning wood. My last month's electric bill was $316 and the month before was $300. That's $616 for a total of 64 days. About $10 a for a record cold winter isn't bad for a total electric 2100 sq ft home with basement.

I can afford to pay that.

KEEP IN MIND THE ARTICLE SAID MOSTLY POOR PEOPLE BURN WOOD.

I think more local governments are putting a ban on burning than the EPA, yet people are pitching about the epa.

Where I live the city has a ban on burning leafs and smoking. The state followed with a smoking ban. Some state have a smoking ban on diesels.
Click to expand...

My power bill last month was over $600.00 George and not one cent of that was heat. That's almost 25% of my monthly income. We heat almost exclusively with wood. If I couldn't heat with wood, I would lose this place. My in laws lived on SS. If it hadn't been for their wood stove they'd have froze.

I'm sorry you have air quality health issues, but I think your attitude on this subject is pretty small minded.
 
I might be small minded, but I'm glad I'm not neighbors like the one in the pic.

I'm also greatful that none of my neighbors burn wood, leafs or garbage. Greatful my neighbors don't trash up their yards.

I'm greatful that I only spend 2% of my retirement income on my total electric home.

I think the insurance companies have stopped many burning wood in my area. I went to town today and could only find one person, the pic above, burning wood. His neighbor used to burn wood, before he burnt his house down.

If there is a way to burn wood more efficiently, then I'm all for it. Guess I'm small minded.
a147171.jpg
 
"my total electric home"

Where do you think that electric comes from? Fairy farts?

It probably comes from COAL, which "stinks up your air" as bad as or worse than wood. The EPA is trying to shut down coal plants by making the regulations too costly to comply with.

What are you going to heat with when the power plants shut down?

Frankly, I can't stand people who throw a hissy fit if their neighbor's yard isn't just so, or if there's an occasional smell in the air, or a little extra noise once in a while.

We've all got to live together. I'll be as courteous as I can, and I'll put up with a little noise or an occasional smell from my neighbors. In turn I expect the same from them. Any crap in their yard I could give a crap about. It's not in my yard so it's none of my business.
 
EPA has been sucessful with this strategy for years. They know going after the masses is suicide. Succeed by attacking bits and pieces of the population. Then attack bits and pieces again, and again, until gradually they get the full extent of what they want. Nobody cares until it's their turn to be regulated. When it does, those already being regulated say "it's about time" and those that aren't yet say "it's about time", or "why not?" because it's presented to them as a wonderful idea that will only have positive effects for them. Small groups being regulated or threatened with regulation will never be able to stand up to the majority, and the EPA knows this. Many times when a regulatory agency proposes regulations, special interest groups will also jump in to villify certain groups to line their pockets.


Also, to those that think they are cheaply and efficiently heating with electricity, and those that feel that it is the most cost-effective way to do so, I congratulate you for having the opportunity to both choose and utilize the method that best fits your needs. Electricity is far from a pollution-free source of heat. Just because electricity users don't directly pollute to heat/light/etc. their homes, the generating plant does, and the EPA's going after them, too. I will venture a guess that as some coal-fired power plants (I know Indiana has more than a few) are shut down, some will have generating levels cut back, and some face incredibly expensive upgades to continue to generate, power bills are going to go up, and I would bet they'll go way up. Those being regulated pay for regulation-related expenses up front, and the consumer/end user of a product will pay to recoup the expenses on the back end. The end result of the war on coal power plants just hasn't showed up on the electricity bills yet, and when it does, it'll be far too late for anybody to do anything about it, other than pay the bill or face being cut off from the grid that they utilize.

AG
 
(quoted from post at 13:25:45 02/27/14) "my total electric home"

Where do you think that electric comes from? Fairy farts?

It probably comes from COAL, which "stinks up your air" as bad as or worse than wood. The EPA is trying to shut down coal plants by making the regulations too costly to comply with.

What are you going to heat with when the power plants shut down?

Frankly, I can't stand people who throw a hissy fit if their neighbor's yard isn't just so, or if there's an occasional smell in the air, or a little extra noise once in a while.

We've all got to live together. I'll be as courteous as I can, and I'll put up with a little noise or an occasional smell from my neighbors. In turn I expect the same from them. Any crap in their yard I could give a crap about. It's not in my yard so it's none of my business.
Click to expand...

Well, I think you covered everything I was going to say, so good on you!
 
(quoted from post at 15:08:04 02/26/14) Why would anyone want to buy a wood stove that's not efficient? I like to cut wood but not that well! We have a stove that is well within the guidelines, and I wouldn't want anything less efficient. Remember, it's only on new stove purchases, not ones in place. As far as building your own, if you put it in a building you will have a hard time legally get insurance, and if you lie about it, it's insurance fraud. Remember, you are polluting the air that we all breath, so it is everybody's business!
Click to expand...

I happen to sleep with one of the state Farm Bureau Insurances' property inspetors/underwriters. They insure most any type of properly installed wood stoves. In shops and outbuilding they can be home made, even the barrel stoves.

Again, must be installed correctly and not be a piece of junk or something thrown together.

Gene
 
(quoted from post at 16:04:50 02/26/14) Yes we have wind, we are getting the pollution directly from the ND coal power plants! I don't think Japan is a big contributor to world pollution, but china is for sure. Recently it was in the news that a Chinese city had pollution so bad that you couldn't recognize a face at 30 feet, do we want to be like that? It will get them, their medical costs will go up, and they will have to conform to the ways of the developed world.
Click to expand...

Russ, I saw something once to the effect that if you lined up China men at the face of a cliff, and had them march forward and fall over the cliff into the sea, that as fast as they jumped to their death, more chinese would be born than could jump. There are so danged many of them, that their leaders could care less how many die of pollution.

Gene
 
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