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Hand Cranking Alternative?

A

Anonymous-0

Well-known Member
I have a potentially stupid question, so please be patient with me. I've been reading about the dangers of starting a tractor by hand with a crank. In one of the discussions, someone mentioned that the old John Deere tractors were safer because you turned the flywheel on the side of the tractor instead of a crank on the front. This got me wondering if it would be possible to replace the standard crank with a wheel that would slide onto the same shaft the crank fits on. You could then spin the wheel just like the John Deere flywheel. With a balanced wheel instead of a crank, it seems like there would be less danger of injury if the engine backfired. Once started, you could take the wheel of just like the crank. I'm sure somebody would have done this already if it would work, so can someone tell me why it won't? Thanks in advance.
 
A couple problems I see with that idea. finding a wheel to put a shaft on to fit the crank end being one. Lifting the wheel around another. I can't spin my AC Model M around with a crank, because of the compression, I use my foot to kick it through. My dad could spin it by hand, don't know how he did it. Now they all have electric starters. Stan
 
If the magneto/ignition timing is set so spark occurs at, or slightly after TDC, there"s no risk in cranking the engine. If timing is carelessly set (or there"s impulse issues with the mag) and spark occurs before TDC, it"s prolly gonna HURT!

IMHO, the rep the DEERE"S had for being "safer" had a lot to do with their BIG/heavy/lots of mass flywheel that (if kickback were to occur) "damped" it so it wouldn"t hurt you.
 
And the dangers of hand cranking were not only from "kickback". Everyone on the bridge jobsite tried to start an old welder one frosty morning. The Wisconsin engine would tease us with an occasional feeble sputter. The foreman was a big strong mouthy bruiser, and he was ragging us bad - calling us wimpy and weak. We were all ticked off at him. Finally he announced that he was gonna show us how a man cranks an engine. I have to admit - he could whirl it over - I think we could have welded while he cranked - but as he was whipping the crank, he was also pulling it from it's socket. The end slipped out of the flywheel and spun around and hit him squarely on the chin. He fell like a big oak tree. It was the funniest thing I'd ever seen in my life, and the whole crew laughed so hard we could hardly breath. We finally checked to see if he was still alive - he was - and we drug his carcase over by the burn barrel so he wouldn't freeze to death. Every morning, for the remainder of that job, we'd all holler for old Bill to come start that welder for us. You could almost see the steam puff out of his ears.
 
I've never started an old JD like you describe, but I suspect the uneven firing of the 2 cylinder motor helped. With a two cylinder John Deere, there's 360 degrees between BDC on the power stroke of the number two cylinder and TDC on the compression stroke of number one. For 180 degrees, neither cylinder is in compression. So you have a nice wide arc in which to get some inertia into the flywheel. With a four cylinder engine, there is never any point where a cylinder is not in compression, so you don't have much of a swing to work with.

Of course, you should NEVER be trying to "spin" the motor with the crank. You should just be pulling it over TDC, only a few degrees.
 
You crank a JD just like any other hand crank, slowly roll over close to TDC and flick it over the best you can and it should take off. No need for speed or too much strength.

Spinning it to get some inertia as you described is just a good way to get tired haha

Brandon
 
If that was such a good idea don't you think the old timers would have done that 75 years ago?
My dad used to start his Farmall M all winter long with hand crank and never had a problem.
The old hand start two cylinders would pull you backwards if you did not let go of the flywheel if it backfired.
Brian
 
Not that much difference: A crank would break your arm and a flywheel would break your wrist!
 
First off, the "danger", like with most other things, is way overblown. You crank start an engine by getting it up against compression in a 9 o'clock or so position and pull it over with one hand. You don't grab it with both hands and stand in front of it rolling it over. You just pull it over from 9 o'clock to 2 or so, over the top of the arch. If it does backfire the worst that happens that way is the crank gets ripped out of you hand, leaving you with sore fingers at best. Tales of broken arms, missing limbs, teeth smashed out, etc, are 10% truth and 90% story telling. After all, who wants to hear a boring story about sore fingers when multiple compound fractures are just a few words away. As Mark Twain said, "I enjoy a good lie as much as the next man."
 
I have not had much handcranking to do (Wife doesn't allow me!!) But if my Ferguson needs cranked then the dog is designed in such a way that it freewheels in reverse. It just cannot kick back. I thought all hand cranks were made like this????........Sam
 
Curious1,
I started JD by hand and cranked others. I was taught when cranking, never have your thumb over crank so if the crank turns backwards, it doesn't remove your thumb. I really never had a problem with a properly tuned engine.

On the other hand, the old kick start motorcycles had the spark advance was on your left handbar. The motorcycle could kick pack, throw you over the handle bars or your foot slips off and it kicks you in the calf. OUCH
 
IMO, you crank a tractor by making sure the crank will pull out of your fingers if it would kick back. Don't let your thumb be on the opposite side of the crank as opposed to your other four fingers. If you follow that rule, you will be fine.
 
Sam - actually if you think more about that, all cranks HAVE to run backwards.

The dogs are more like an overrun clutch - they keep the crank from spinning with the engine once it starts...

It can be a little confusing until you use one and think about it - if you're putting pressure on the crank in the forward motion - the engine is pushing back with the reverse motion.

If it suddenly pushes harder in the reverse motion by firing backwards, you're going with it.

They could possibly put some kind of breakaway safety catch so you can't have too MUCH force in that backwards direction - but, that'd be a tough balance to still allow you to crank without trouble.
 
The dogs are designed to disengage once the crankshaft is turning faster than the hand crank in the same direction the hand crank is turning.

Depends on what you end of the hand crank you're talking about when you say reverse.

A kick back is when the engine fires early BTC-Before Top Dead Center (in advanced timing) causing the crankshaft to turn the opposite direction. This will not release the hand-crank from the crankshaft. It will keep it locked in place since the crankshaft is now the driving force.
 
For one, remember the deeres with the hand crank flywheel also have compression relief petcocks on each cylinder.

You're not going to want to install those on all four cylinders of something like a farmall M!

The hand crank gives you a good grip, and its length gives you an adequate (usually) amount of torque to fight the compression, so it's not so bad.

If you used a wheel instead - without compression relief - its diameter would have to be at least the diameter as the hand crank. Where do you store it?

by the way - interesting side note you may not know - some of the old john deeres (and maybe others?) used to have a removable steering wheel that doubled as a crank for their engines. It had teeth that'd fit into the center of the flywheel.
 
Amen to that Bret -

On a hand start tractor you have to - HAVE TO - be sure you're firing slightly AFTER tdc before you try hand cranking it.

(not every time - I'm talking before your first attempt)

Some people are so performance focused, thinking they have to get their mags to fire EXACTLY at tdc and they don't want to be off even a hair.

That's dangerous for virtually no "performance" or even improved starting gain.

Set to tdc, then give it the slightest twist to after tdc and lock it in there. Mark it with a fine line so you can see if it ever moves.

The mags are designed to advance an adequate amount once they get running.

With the mag set properly, you can be much, much more relaxed about hand starting - but still should always follow the rules, just in case.
 
There is another alternative. If you are unsure if the timing and impluse are set correctly then pull start the tractor. This does take 2 people however (unless you have a good hill).
 
having worked for a while with a hand start tractor that kicked back a lot - I can tell you that the open grip IS important, but the proper body positioning and partial crank angle is MUCH more important.

Don't EVER crank all the way around. Put it around 7:00 - 9:00 - lift up to 11:00 - ish.

Then PULL THE CRANK OUT - and put back to 7/9 for each additional crank until it starts.

(some people make the mistake of thinking that if they just turn it slow it won't fire!)

I believe the open-hand/thumb-off concept is to cover people who decide to crank all the way around.

Drives me crazy to see people doing full cranks.

If you're in the wrong position - over 12:00 and it decides to kick there - it's very likely going to break your arm. If your thumb is in the way - it's going to be folded right back out of the way by the crank.

When they bite back at you - you gain a whole new appreciation for how much power is in even a small 15 horse motor. I don't care how big you are, you aint stopping it.

It's so hard and fast that it rattles your teeth, and that's when doing it properly.

Time it properly - crank it properly, then you'll be fine.
 
I grew up on a '37 JD A and an F-20. Liked the A 'caus of the flywheel start. When I had to crank the F-20, I'd get the crank just past verticle and then lay on it with my belly. Kicked a few times, but I would just wind up on the ground a few feet back. Sure wouldn't try that now though!
 
Back to the original subject, I would expect that the "removable wheel" idea was explored at some point, but it clearly is not practical.

You'd need a heavy wheel that would be difficult to move, and takes up a lot of room.

The wheel would have to be securely fastened to the starter shaft so you could properly "throw" it without having the wheel come off and land on your foot. That takes extra time and probably some tools.

Cranks are a simpler solution to the problem. While they do have their shortcomings too, they are the more practical solution.
 
2 cylinder Wisconsin Engines, on New Holland
hay bailers, had an optional flywheel, about 1
foot in diameter, that was used to spin the
engine over !
 
IMHOP anything with a crank should never run and be lawn art. If it required a hand crank to start then don't call me to fix it. Many years back i had a crank try real hard to eat me alive . I carry the scar next to my right eye and a lump on my right elbow . I was 9-10 years old and working ground with and Oliver O C 3 pulling a 4 section spike tooth . The throttle would not stay in the wide open and ya held your foot on it , i went across the dead furrow at the end it was a little rough and my foot came off the throttle and before i could get the clutch down she stalled. I was by myself and everybody else was over a mile away digging taters. I can do this watched my uncle do this many times. , Make sure it is out of gear place crank in hole set throttle at about a quarter use monkey grip pull UP . First pull it sputtered ok try again and do it HARDER . When i did it the next time she kicked back and the crank came flying out spinning and got me on the elbow and then laced my head open blood everywhere knocking me to the ground . I think that is the day i learned to swear . Bleeding like a stuck hog madder then a wet hen i get up and about ten fifteen feet away lay the offending crank. I picked it up and with every bit left in me i threw that chunk of steel as far and hard as i could. If you happen to need a crank for and O C 3 oliver it is still where i threw it in about 30 feet of water as it lander in the irrigation lake that covered ten acres and at it's deepest it is about 35 feet . I then had to walk over a half mile back to the house . So if ya get the idea i don't like crank start your wright.
 
i remember a story somebody got an idea that you wind a rope around a flywheel then hooked a team of horses to the rope it was a great plan till the tractor backfired those horses wouldnt go near that tractor afterward
 
(quoted from post at 04:52:37 01/30/14) First off, the "danger", like with most other things, is way overblown. You crank start an engine by getting it up against compression in a 9 o'clock or so position and pull it over with one hand. You don't grab it with both hands and stand in front of it rolling it over. You just pull it over from 9 o'clock to 2 or so, over the top of the arch. If it does backfire the worst that happens that way is the crank gets ripped out of you hand, leaving you with sore fingers at best. Tales of broken arms, missing limbs, teeth smashed out, etc, are 10% truth and 90% story telling. After all, who wants to hear a boring story about sore fingers when multiple compound fractures are just a few words away. As Mark Twain said, "I enjoy a good lie as much as the next man."
Click to expand...


Actually Bret when tractors and cars were still hand crank and just becoming common there were in fact a lot of injuries due to kick back. Lot of people prior to WWII were functionally illiterate so they would have someone show them how to do it. Then they would show someone else. And "gee, if I start at the top and push down with my body weight...." And in those days there were a lot of people who tried to do their own maintenance who really didn't know what they were doing. So engine timing wasn't the best, many did not own the tools needed to properly set the timing ECT. Plus record keeping on such things wasn't done. But there were enough people hurt that they had safety warnings out on hand cranks long before most things had safety warnings. I'm not claiming they are dangerous. But they can be dangerous if improperly used or if the engine isn't set up correctly.

Rick
 
Stop and think. You are pulling the crank with your 4 fingers. If it kicks back it will be against the 4 fingers not against your thumb. Get the timing set right & it won't kick back. An engine that was timed by ear will most likely kick back.
 
I think you're joking, but in case you're serious, it unscrews itself when the flywheel turns faster than the cranker (you). Just like every other crank.

We had an old farmer in our neighborhood who had the hand crank stub permanently mounted on an extra steering wheel so he didn't have to remove/remount the steering wheel for every start-up.

Another old guy had the flywheel cover removed on his electric start B, and he used a big Crescent wrench to spin the engine over. The ring gear teeth and starter bendix discouraged you from spinning the flywheel by hand. When the engine fired, the wrench would fly! Sometimes up - sometimes down. He'd always say, "Now step back boys" before he rolled it over, ha. Good entertainment for a kid!

A contractor I worked with used a big right angle drill, with adapters, to start a 4 cylinder Wisconsin engine on a big concrete saw. It made the generator grunt!
 
Those short shafts were used mainly for a tractor with a mounted corn picker. No other way to easily get to the fly wheel. Had a little removable door on the picker for the stick shaft to get into the fly wheel. Started an "A" many times that way.
 
The starter wheel used on JD tractors was to start tractors that had electric start. They had a shaft coming from the wheel and a pin through the shaft that fit the flywheel like a regular crank.
 
your idea would work. not really nescisary to go to that much trouble. I have several hand crankers and crank start all the time. even one with a distributor instead of a magnito. its the only one I have to be careful with. most people just don't know how to safely hand-crank-start. you just can not do it like goofy in the cartunes in that round and round fasion. thats only a good idea if you just wanta get hit in the head and knocked on your a&&. My tips are 1. have tractor properly timed and impulse functioning 2. crank in half hitches, not round and round 3. always in an upward and over the top motion (never downward) 4. all 4 fingers and thumb on same side of crank handle 5. always use just one hand (never two) 6. always stand clear in case it does kick (off to the side is unexceptable, the crank can be kicked clear off the shaft and the force will cuase it to go up, down, or off to the side) 7. just have throttle opened up just enough for the engine to run 8. should be able to start in 1 to 3 crankes or the engine is ailing something and needs attention.
 
(quoted from post at 08:30:41 01/30/14)
(quoted from post at 04:52:37 01/30/14) First off, the "danger", like with most other things, is way overblown. You crank start an engine by getting it up against compression in a 9 o'clock or so position and pull it over with one hand. You don't grab it with both hands and stand in front of it rolling it over. You just pull it over from 9 o'clock to 2 or so, over the top of the arch. If it does backfire the worst that happens that way is the crank gets ripped out of you hand, leaving you with sore fingers at best. Tales of broken arms, missing limbs, teeth smashed out, etc, are 10% truth and 90% story telling. After all, who wants to hear a boring story about sore fingers when multiple compound fractures are just a few words away. As Mark Twain said, "I enjoy a good lie as much as the next man."
Click to expand...


Actually Bret when tractors and cars were still hand crank and just becoming common there were in fact a lot of injuries due to kick back. Lot of people prior to WWII were functionally illiterate so they would have someone show them how to do it. Then they would show someone else. And "gee, if I start at the top and push down with my body weight...." And in those days there were a lot of people who tried to do their own maintenance who really didn't know what they were doing. So engine timing wasn't the best, many did not own the tools needed to properly set the timing ECT. Plus record keeping on such things wasn't done. But there were enough people hurt that they had safety warnings out on hand cranks long before most things had safety warnings. I'm not claiming they are dangerous. But they can be dangerous if improperly used or if the engine isn't set up correctly.

Rick
Click to expand...

I get it Rick, but let's remember the stories have been massaged a good bit through the years. Any idiot can get hurt, but I know some illiterate people (literally can't read at all) that can grasp the idea of how to crank start an engine. Anyone posting on this site surely can read and understand that pulling it over is a lot different than trying to push it over. There is still no need to perpetuate the myth that any crank start engine is going to break your arm and shatter all your teeth, which is about what it sounds like the OP was told.
 
(quoted from post at 03:01:51 01/30/14) I have a potentially stupid question, so please be patient with me. I've been reading about the dangers of starting a tractor by hand with a crank. In one of the discussions, someone mentioned that the old John Deere tractors were safer because you turned the flywheel on the side of the tractor instead of a crank on the front. This got me wondering if it would be possible to replace the standard crank with a wheel that would slide onto the same shaft the crank fits on. You could then spin the wheel just like the John Deere flywheel. With a balanced wheel instead of a crank, it seems like there would be less danger of injury if the engine backfired. Once started, you could take the wheel of just like the crank. I'm sure somebody would have done this already if it would work, so can someone tell me why it won't? Thanks in advance.
Click to expand...

While I use a wheel on a shaft when working on engines,
starting with it would be difficult because you need to be applying slight inward pressure to keep it engaged, and
it would need to be a big wheel to match the crank handles leverage.
I suppose a front stinger pump setup with the pump replaced by a permanent wheel, that would spin when the engine is running, like a Deere,
would work, but not very practical.
Hand cranking really isn't that bad.
never spin it, if 1,2,3 proper 1/4 to 1/2 turns don't get it started, you
have other issues....fix them.
And like most things, timid will get ya hurt.
set the handle and yourself properly...and PULL it!
 
I saw a black guy win $5.00 one time because a fellow bet him he couldn't wind a rope around the clutch pulley and crank it. It took him a couple of tries but he did it. Said he got the idea when the A that the farmer he worked for choked down and the batteries were dead. It was a late A with the pressed steel frame and covered flywheel without the hand crank adapter for using the steering wheel. This was in the late 50's at my Dad's Deere shop.
 
(quoted from post at 07:01:51 01/30/14) I have a potentially stupid question, so please be patient with me. I've been reading about the dangers of starting a tractor by hand with a crank. In one of the discussions, someone mentioned that the old John Deere tractors were safer because you turned the flywheel on the side of the tractor instead of a crank on the front. This got me wondering if it would be possible to replace the standard crank with a wheel that would slide onto the same shaft the crank fits on. You could then spin the wheel just like the John Deere flywheel. With a balanced wheel instead of a crank, it seems like there would be less danger of injury if the engine backfired. Once started, you could take the wheel of just like the crank. I'm sure somebody would have done this already if it would work, so can someone tell me why it won't? Thanks in advance.
Click to expand...

There is a video on youtube where a fellow wraps a leather strap around the belt pulley of a VAC Case and starts her second pull.Neatest setup I recall seeing was a car flywheel and starter mounted on the pulley of an old tractor.I think maybe a 10 20 IH.
 
I'm surprised SuperTrucker hasn't weighed in.
He has a friend that adapted a 12V car starter and flywheel
to the belt pulley of an old Fordson row crop to start it.
Pretty danged impressive actually.
I still hand crank my Farmall F-xx's and the '39 H.
But the batteries are getting pretty weak! LOL
 
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