Enviormentalist

oldtanker

Well-known Member
Seems the same environmentalist who have been fighting the Keystone Pipe Line are now claiming that the extra rail traffic moving that very same oil is interfering with Amtrak schedules causing delays of as much as 12 hours to Amtrak's schedules. They are afraid the delays will make people drive or take less fuel efficient mods of transportation instead of the train who's tickets are subsidized buy the American tax payer. Yea the very same people who yell and cry so loud about farm subsidies have to have subsidies to get folks to ride their trains.

Maybe I just have a perverse sense of humor, but I find this amusing!

Rick
 
Same environmentalists that demand we build windmills for electric generation and then sue the builders for killing birds. Bunch of evil people with to much time on their hands.
 
Those folks with a misguided zeal to "save the world" have forgotten a basic rule - every action has a reaction.
Most all of those great ideas cost everyone more in the long run.
 
Yabbut, they're making a killing selling that stuff to the idiots that are finding out that it doesn't really work....
 
I have heard that the main purpose of the keystone pipeline is to get northern oil to the gulf so it can be sold to the highest bidder, probably not us! What we need in the north central states is a big refinery around Fargo!
 
Eco-Paganism is a religion.

This is why such followers do not respond to rational thought.

Dean
 
The keystone pipeline should NOT transport crude to the gulf from Canada. It will bring the price of domestic oil UP because that oil is now available on the international market.
 
Green bay WI? That's a long way from Fargo! I hope you mean it's there ready to be shipped and assembled somewhere between the supply (oil patch) and demand (RR valley)
 
There is a refinery in Mandan ND, Also they are in consruction of a diesel refinery in Dickinson ND. There is a proposal to build a huge (400,000 barrels a day) refinery north of Sioux Falls. I won't invest in any of that though, because it is clear to me that in north america we have no shortage of oil refining capicity, our demand for petroleum products is actually shinking as our cars become more efficient, and if we were to need to increase refining caapicity, it would be best to do it at existing facilities. Perhaps Dan in North Houston has some insite. Also, if we dont get started on that XL pipeline Canada is going to build a pipeline to their west coast and sell that oil to China.
 
Canadian oil sands represent more than half of the worlds oil reserves that are not controlled by oil state monopolies, such as in the middle east, sub-saharan africa, asia, south america etc. The Chinese have been steadily buying up canadian energy companies and oil rights, they want control of the oil sands and will ship it all to China if allowed. If the pipeline is built the oil sent to the gulf coast will replace around 40% of the middle eastern oil currently imported by ship, it is cheaper to move oil in a pipeline than by tanker, the oil sent to the US now by the friend of zeros rail line is used here.
 
(quoted from post at 09:53:38 01/30/14) He also is doing ok hauling coal.

You should see the coal hoppers and tankers roll by on the BNSF line about 25 miles north of me.

Rick
 
I have been saying it all along . Keystone pipeline will get Canada"s oil to gul port so it can be EXPORTED . US will see none of it . weather or not the jobs putting in the pipeline remains undecided
 
its been there for a while before sands got popular the make oil for roads and with the great lakes shipping it was a good match
 
The fight about the pipeline is not about if there will be a pipeline, it is about where the pipeline will connect to. Shipping oil out of the Dakotas by rail is a only a short term solution until a pipeline is eventually build.

It's not just the enviornmentalists that are against the Keystone pipeline. In the upper Midwest many businesses, state governments and local governments are against it too. The reason is we don't get receive much benfit from the pipeline and economically it will make us less competitive in the future. Once oil reaches a coastline it can be shipped to anywhere in the world. New businesses and new jobs will follow that oil, why should we export those jobs out of the region or export them out of the country?

There is a high demand and a very large market for both energy and for refined petroleum products right here in the Midwest and in the nearby Great Lakes states. Better supplies and lower oil costs would be an economic boon to this area and to the Great Lakes states.

Shorter pipelines could deliver that oil and natural gas into the existing pipeline grids at: Souix Falls; Omaha; Minneapolis; Des Moines; Milwaukee or Chicago. We could feed the pipeline grid from both the northern and southern ends, reducing the load on the grid.

Rather than pumping that oil 1200 miles to refineries on the Gulf Coast and then shipping (whatever does not get exported) back another 1200 miles to the the Midwest, why not refine it right here in the Midwest and save those pipeline costs and pumping costs?

Aging refineries on the Gulf Coast will need to be upgraded or replaced anyway. Why not build the new refineries in the Midwest? New refineries could be built in: the Dakotas; Nebraska; Iowa, Minnesota, Wisconsin and Illinois. Some enviornmentalists will always howl about any new refineries, but we already have refineries on the Great Lakes that are some of the cleanest in the world. We have the technology to do things right if we want to. New refineries would create high paying jobs and not just for a few chemists and petroleum engineers. Refineries need: mechanical engineers, electrical engineers, controls engineers, pipe fitters, electricians, mill wrights, machinists, welders, janitors, office managers, secretaries, human resources people, supplier companies, transportation companies, etc.

Lower energy costs and reliable supplies would benefit businesses and homeowners thoughout the region. Farmers could benefit from lower diesel fuel costs, and lower propane costs (maybe lower NH3 costs also, is NH3 made from natural gas?). Local Farmer's Coops are curently building next to natural gas pipelines to reduce their corn drying costs.

If there is sufficient natural gas supply it would be an strong incentive to expand the natural gas pipleline grid further into the East Coast states and further into rural areas. Just like the REA brought electricity to rural America during the 1930's and 1940's, who's to say there could not be a similar program (Rural Natural Gas Association?) to bring natural gas to farms across the Midwest or across the USA? Yes, many people will howl that governments should not be involved in anymore big programs, leave it to big businesses to handle this. Some even advocate that some new public roads should be privatized (former MN governor Tim Palenty for one example).

Rural natuaral gas won't happen in my life time. Rural telephone systems and rural electric systems took over a generation to install. Rural water systems and rural cable/fiber optic systems are mostly only small local efforts, similar to the first municalpal electric cooperatives. Think what farming would be like without electricity or if you had to generate your own electricity. Natural gas could benefit a farm almost as much as electricity does.

The fight about the pipeline is not if there will be a pipeline, it is about where to pipeline will connect to. I do believe that rural small towns and farms would benefit if they could heat homes, businesses, work shops, livestock buildings and crop dryers with natural gas. That will be a non-starter if we export our supply our of the region or out of the country.

Creating new jobs is a big problem in the USA. No one has many effective solutions. I believe keeping that oil in the Midwest will create more new jobs than exporting the oil will. It is an opportunity to help the both the region and the coutry, but no one is talking about it. This is a long term change to the country's infrastructure that could affect the jobs availble to our children and our grandchildren.

I don't intend this to be a rant, and I don't want to put down other people's opinions. I only want to present this idea for maybe further discussions.

Thank you.
ss55
 
(quoted from post at 12:56:22 01/30/14) The fight about the pipeline is not about if there will be a pipeline, it is about where the pipeline will connect to. Shipping oil out of the Dakotas by rail is a only a short term solution until a pipeline is eventually build.

It's not just the enviornmentalists that are against the Keystone pipeline. In the upper Midwest many businesses, state governments and local governments are against it too. The reason is we don't get receive much benfit from the pipeline and economically it will make us less competitive in the future. Once oil reaches a coastline it can be shipped to anywhere in the world. New businesses and new jobs will follow that oil, why should we export those jobs out of the region or export them out of the country?

There is a high demand and a very large market for both energy and for refined petroleum products right here in the Midwest and in the nearby Great Lakes states. Better supplies and lower oil costs would be an economic boon to this area and to the Great Lakes states.

Shorter pipelines could deliver that oil and natural gas into the existing pipeline grids at: Souix Falls; Omaha; Minneapolis; Des Moines; Milwaukee or Chicago. We could feed the pipeline grid from both the northern and southern ends, reducing the load on the grid.

Rather than pumping that oil 1200 miles to refineries on the Gulf Coast and then shipping (whatever does not get exported) back another 1200 miles to the the Midwest, why not refine it right here in the Midwest and save those pipeline costs and pumping costs?

Aging refineries on the Gulf Coast will need to be upgraded or replaced anyway. Why not build the new refineries in the Midwest? New refineries could be built in: the Dakotas; Nebraska; Iowa, Minnesota, Wisconsin and Illinois. Some enviornmentalists will always howl about any new refineries, but we already have refineries on the Great Lakes that are some of the cleanest in the world. We have the technology to do things right if we want to. New refineries would create high paying jobs and not just for a few chemists and petroleum engineers. Refineries need: mechanical engineers, electrical engineers, controls engineers, pipe fitters, electricians, mill wrights, machinists, welders, janitors, office managers, secretaries, human resources people, supplier companies, transportation companies, etc.

Lower energy costs and reliable supplies would benefit businesses and homeowners thoughout the region. Farmers could benefit from lower diesel fuel costs, and lower propane costs (maybe lower NH3 costs also, is NH3 made from natural gas?). Local Farmer's Coops are curently building next to natural gas pipelines to reduce their corn drying costs.

If there is sufficient natural gas supply it would be an strong incentive to expand the natural gas pipleline grid further into the East Coast states and further into rural areas. Just like the REA brought electricity to rural America during the 1930's and 1940's, who's to say there could not be a similar program (Rural Natural Gas Association?) to bring natural gas to farms across the Midwest or across the USA? Yes, many people will howl that governments should not be involved in anymore big programs, leave it to big businesses to handle this. Some even advocate that some new public roads should be privatized (former MN governor Tim Palenty for one example).

Rural natuaral gas won't happen in my life time. Rural telephone systems and rural electric systems took over a generation to install. Rural water systems and rural cable/fiber optic systems are mostly only small local efforts, similar to the first municalpal electric cooperatives. Think what farming would be like without electricity or if you had to generate your own electricity. Natural gas could benefit a farm almost as much as electricity does.

The fight about the pipeline is not if there will be a pipeline, it is about where to pipeline will connect to. I do believe that rural small towns and farms would benefit if they could heat homes, businesses, work shops, livestock buildings and crop dryers with natural gas. That will be a non-starter if we export our supply our of the region or out of the country.

Creating new jobs is a big problem in the USA. No one has many effective solutions. I believe keeping that oil in the Midwest will create more new jobs than exporting the oil will. It is an opportunity to help the both the region and the coutry, but no one is talking about it. This is a long term change to the country's infrastructure that could affect the jobs availble to our children and our grandchildren.

I don't intend this to be a rant, and I don't want to put down other people's opinions. I only want to present this idea for maybe further discussions.

Thank you.
ss55

ss55. I can bet that they will fight tooth and nail against MN because of the lakes, rivers and streams. That doesn't mean I don't agree with you but the nut jobs will fight it.

ND is/has built a new refinery that they started last year. There is also a refinery just south of the Twin Cities and one near Minot ND.

The problem is and will be getting oil to a refinery. Right now the best thing would be refineries in ND because they is little the Feds can do to block it. Once you built a pipe line across state lines it's interstate commerce and the feds business.

This is from a news article "All told, the government covers almost all of Amtrak’s capital costs as well as more than 10 percent of its operating costs". Now Amtrak has a few profitable routes mostly in the "northeast corridor". The rest are not profitable. Total budget last year was about 1.5 billion tax payer dollars. That was reduced by about 17 million because of the government shutdown. That means that one of two things are wrong. 1 they are not charging enough to cover operating expenses. The reason they would do that is that it's the only way to entice people into riding. 2. In an effort to get people to use their long distance they have artificially very low fees. Both add up to the same thing. Either shut parts of it down and make a profit without subsidies.

Rick
 
Same idiots who came up with High efficiency, front loading washing machines. I spent $1900 on a pair 4 years ago. MFer's dont get the clothes clean. So now I just spent $1400 to buy a new pair of the old style, top loading machines that have an agitator and fill up with as much water as I want.

So now the old pair is on craigs list for $300.

I have yet to talk to anyone who like those washers. But they save 2 gallon of water!

Gene
 
Lots of opinions on ND crude, Bakken and 3 Forks formations from people that never have been or worked there. The current refinery (?) being built in Dickinsion is tiny, 8000 barrels a day and it has no hdrocracker, it will produce only diesel.That is just a sneeze and is more a concession to agriculture than any real attempt to deal with the Baaken crude. The fact that it is to built modular so it can be picked up and moved should come as no supprise to anyone. Seriously, it is being built on skids.What crude that is not converted to diesel goes back on a train car. Two other refineries have been proposed in ND, one on a Indian reservation, and the other, a South Korea plan. Both depend on huge taxpayer funds and loan gaurantees. The Canadians want to build the XL pipeline risking their own money. I like that, but others are free to support all those ideas that put taxpayers on the hook for billions of $. Anouther reason it is a bad idea to build a huge refinery in ND is there is no one out there to buy the finished product. It would have to go on train cars or a pipe line and be sent to market. It would multipul products, diesel, jet, gasoline, propane ect, and it would be years before constructions started (remember those environmentalists will sue to stop all of it, probable never could get built) On the other hand, if the crude goes via the XL ( a shovel ready project I may add)to the gulf coast, the refining, and distribution systems already exist. The current refinery is in Mandan, not Minot, it processes 60,000 barrels a day. It, along with the terminals in Jamestown and Glendive MT have no problem supplying regional demand. The people that think the oil is ours, really don't understand how world commodity prices work: supply and demand with manipulation by traders. Frankley I am supprised the Canadians have put up with US nonsence as long as they have. And, I may add, this war on the XL pipeline started when the Governor of Nebraska asked then US Sec of State Clinton to review the project (after XL had recieved all permits and negociated all right of ways) cause he said it was crossing over the ogallala aquifer (anyone know how to cross NB without going over it, and why wasn't this brought up up during the comment period of the permit process?). No environmentalist ever even heard of the XL untill that Governor got the ball rolling.
 
"1 they are not charging enough to cover operating expenses" - oldtanker

Back in the '80's I moved from Elkhart, IN. to Chicago after I got out of the army, lived there about a decade while working and playing there as a young man. I used to catch AmTrak back and forth on weekends to see the family. It wasn't expensive, and the trains were clean. I have long since moved back to Indiana. A couple of years ago, I had to go out of town a couple of weeks on business, fly out of O'Hare, and not wanting to bother anyone with that kind of road trip, I figured someone drive me over to Elkhart, catch AmTrak to Chicago, catch a commuter train to near O'Hare, and a couple of weeks later the opposite back to home. MAN!!! Round trip ticket was cheap for AmTrak as I recall, but it was like boarding the train of the living dead. People from NY headed west, people from west headed to NY, living in their seats. Like the stories you hear or heard about Greyhound buses, maybe worse. Holy tomolies is all I can say, except that you wouldn't want to take a family trip that way. I guess that people can afford what they can afford, and now I know why my tickets were so cheap. Sitting with folks that hadn't taken baths or showers or brushed their teeth for days. Without subsidies, there aint no way that thing would be in business.

Mark
 
Scott you don,t even now north from south that preposed refinery was sited south west of Sioux Falls but i dont think it will ever get built to many that want progress but not in there back yard
 
(quoted from post at 15:56:22 01/30/14) The fight about the pipeline is not about if there will be a pipeline, it is about where the pipeline will connect to. Shipping oil out of the Dakotas by rail is a only a short term solution until a pipeline is

Rather than pumping that oil 1200 miles to refineries on the Gulf Coast
ss55

Why not refine the bituminous crude in Alberta ?
 
(quoted from post at 19:47:50 01/30/14)
(quoted from post at 15:56:22 01/30/14) The fight about the pipeline is not about if there will be a pipeline, it is about where the pipeline will connect to. Shipping oil out of the Dakotas by rail is a only a short term solution until a pipeline is

Rather than pumping that oil 1200 miles to refineries on the Gulf Coast
ss55

Why not refine the bituminous crude in Alberta ?

I read something that it's cheaper to ship the crude to a refinery than it would be to refine it there and then ship it. I don't know all the details but that's what I read.

Rick
 

We wouldn't trade our front loader Sears for a top loader. Handles large items with ease. Spins clothes dryer than top loaders too.
 
The biggest thing I see about this is The Right of Eminent Domain. This is not a US pipeline but they can still come in and go thru your property and there is nothing you can do about it...LET THE OIL COMPANIES BUY IT AT THE BORDER...
 
No matter what type of energy it is or how it's transported someone is going to be making money doing it. That's the ONLY reason we even have it!

Oil, coal... They don't dig it out of the ground for the benefit of all mankind. That's just a side effect.
 
Actually this is a US pipeline being built by a US company. TransCanda is a US corp traded on the New York Stock exchange: NYSE:TRP ! A couple of other points. That crude oil will be traded to an US oil company before it ever is put in the pipeline in Canada and sent south. They qualify as a common carrier (ie:they transport others companies products) by anybodies defination, allowing Eminent Domain ( I am not a fan of this but it is fact). So far, there has not been a judge between northern ND and southern TX that sees a "thing" or problem with emminent domain in this project.
 

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