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Michigan wind chill colder then I think ???

J

JDemaris

Well-known Member
I got reading the paper this morning here in northern Michigan. The principal of the school in Posen (Potato farming capitol of Michigan by Lake Huron) says that they've almost used all the allowed snow days. He says not just because of snow. The principal says the 20 below 0 F "wind chill" temps make diesel school buses unsafe to run! The actual temps on the days closed have been around 5-6 below F, including this morning.

Now excuse my ignorance - but since when does "wind chill" have anything to do with diesel fuel gelling? As I recall, it is the actual temp that determines that - and not the "wind chill" factor.

As I understand it - wind chill is a factor of how fast something cools due to wind and has nothing to do with actual temps. By this principal's reasoning - a glass of water would freeze at 45 degrees F if the wind-chill was determined to be 30 F?

Like I said, maybe I'm missing some fine point here - but I don't think so. Besides - don't most modern diesels heat fuel and recirculate it back to the tank? I well understand how diesel fuel gels or gets ice crystals. I don't don't comprehend this "wind chill" thing.
 
We have the 20 below rule up here. Not so much about the busses but the kids waiting for them getting frost bite. Same applies for going out to playground at lunch. Wife works at school.

I know, never stopped us from walkling 2 miles to school in that temp.
Up hill both ways of course.
 
You are right about the wind chill and the actual temps. But you need to remember that school principals are not necessarily the brightest when it comes to having common sense. The job is also partially political as he or she must meet the approvable of the school community.
If some parents do not want their little babies to get cold they contact the principal and persuade him to close the school.

Modern diesel fuel that is blended for winter use is not likely to gel even at -30f. I have driven my diesel powered trucks for years here in northern NY state and have never had one gel up in cold driving and I mean well below zero.
 
A bus, or your house, or you will cool down faster with wind. But not below the wind's temperature. If you're relying on a heating system to keep you or your diesel warmer, wind will have a distinct effect.

I thermal model houses, wind can be a substantial factor, requiring enough heating capacity to replace the extra lost heat the wind carried away.

Sounds like your principal doesn't really understand. Or his buses are very temperamental.
 
Well......wind chill here in Michigan is the same as it is anywhere else. What you're missing is that these schools around here don't promote from within anymore. They bring people in that ain't from around here and they don't bring a whole lot of common sense with them.
Dad was bus mechanic and Transportation Supervisor for a lot of years and I can tell you that the only fuel problems he had was for those years that the School Board decided to switch to propane fueled busses. He had a big problem with the regulators freezing up in real cold weather.
 
Do the kids have any clothing requirements in NY? Have a friend who moved to North Dakota- the school supply list has the normal paper and pencil stuff, but also a list of required clothing certified to -40F. She said they looked like overweight midget bank robbers when they got it all on. Kids had to have the stuff and bring it to school by a certain date.
 
They can't go out without coats, hats, mittens, snow pants and boots. Of course do you think the parents remember to send it every day. We see kids get dropped off by there parents in shorts. They're in too much of a hurry to get to their office or anything more important than their kids.

My wife loves the kids. Can't understand why the adults don't have any brains.
 
The way I understand it, wind chill is what exposed skin would feel. Machinery is not effected by wind chill.

Kinda funny, week or two ago, news reported that kids in Anchorage, Ak. are required to go outside for recess provided air temp is warmer than -10F.

FWIW....don t. .....
 
There's a common link among school administrators - they all think that they're the smartest person on the planet. Many preachers are afflicted with the same flaw. Woe unto you if you happen to draw a preacher who is also a school administrator, or vice versa. It's impossible to help someone like that - they are their own worst enemy. I speak from harrowed experience. I have the greatest respect for teachers, janitors and bus drivers, but it generally ends there. To sum it up - you're not missing anything - you just have to consider the source.
 
Unless the school busses have Diesel powered auxillary heaters, the interior of the bus might remain too cold for reasonable occupancy. The St. Cloud Metro Bus system will not run City busses unless the aux heaters are operational. Diesels in intermittant service make little heat. Jim
 
Donno, rr - I had gelled diesel in PU/snow plow during that cold spell after Christmas (single digits temps). As I was filling up truck with Kero, got to talking to the bulk delivery driver as he was making his delivery at the station... He gave me a gallon and a half of diesel treatment that he is issued. Two and a half gallons, (one jug) will treat up to 3,750 gallons of diesel. According to label makes it equal to a mix of half and half #1, #2 diesel. Must be some mighty potent stuff!
 
But what you're missing is that a warm object in a cold wind will cool far faster than without the wind. Ever blow on your soup/coffee to cool it?
 
I understand your frustration.
I have a 7th grader that is getting the hang of having school closed 1 day per week on average because of cold or snow.
The dumb broads that run the district will close the school for almost any reason.
I understand that the buses cannot get down the roads if the snow is too deep, that is understandable, and I would hate to see a bus wreck because the dirt roads are not plowed. But to close the school due to cold weather is beyond my comprehension. I remember going to school when it was below zero all the time. But due to lawyers and the sue happy world someones kids may be too dumb to put on a hat and a coat and freeze to death because of stupidity. I think about it this way, What is the school telling the kids....If it is too cold you do not have to go to school, if there is too much snow, too low of wind chill. (any excuse basically) The kid(s) will grow up thinking---Wow, why do I have to go to work, it is too cold, whatever.
 
Must be. I'm still using the diesel that was delivered in September in the 1365 every day. Been down around -15 and it started right up and fed cattle. Never had fuel gel,not in a tractor or my pickup.
 
Don't know how rural your area is but around here our busses wouldn't run in -20 below because of the fear of bus trouble on the route with a bus load of kids and their safety. Since most busses are diesel these days maybe that is where he is coming from. School districts carry loads of insurance and many parents are more than happy to find cause to relieve them of it in court. It has to do with liability and safety more than mechanics. One bus break down on a -20 day could be very unforgiving on kids. Nobody wants that. Give him a break!
 
Heard the same thing on the news from the neighboring school district. "Its too cold for the buses to run, the diesel engines wont work and the roads need to be cleared first". We were at a basketball game the next week and I ran into that superintendent (think he was at the game just for face time).

I asked him if it was too cold for the buses, how did he expect the snowplows to work, since they use the same diesel engines? I got the F* off and die look from him.

It was kind of unique weather. We got 16-18 inches of snow then -30F windchill. Shiawassee/Genesee County (Mid-Michigan).

My understanding in Michigan, if the windchill is below -20F, school is cancelled. I cant confirm this.

Rick
 
I will have to side with the Supt.on this.Maybe he didn't or the paper didn't word it right,but like aFORDable said you have 60-80kids on a bus and it quits in -20 weather and someone gets frostbite then what.Then you have pickup points with 20-30 kids out in the open and the bus doesn't show up.Our local schools have buses on the roads from 5 to 5:30 in the mornings.
 
We've had days off due to cold here as well. I realized just the other day that NONE of the buses have a winterfront cover on them. When I drove bus every one of them had a cover. My favorite bus ran with the cover completely closed from December to March every year. It did a good job of keeping everyone warm and happy.

One of the problems here is that they are not allowed to idle any longer than a stoplight. They aren't even allowed to run at a fast idle while they pretrip. Seems stupid to me - I think they are wearing engines faster as some drivers say theirs never gets to operating temp all winter. The high schoolers are on first and bring their own blankets to keep warm. All in the name of pollution. How about you close up those grills, brainiac!
 
I think you are expecting too much. He may have SAID "wind chill" but does not necessarily mean he meant "wind chill". He could have been mistakenly referring to actual temperature as wind chill. More likely scenario is that he was told by the bus garage or similar that the buses cannot run below a certain temperature and he just extrapolated that to mean that it meant the wind chill factor. Give the guy a break, he's not a mechanic. Just your average government joe looking forward to cashing in on Michigan's rich educational retirement system. At the end of the day he doesn't want a bunch of kids sitting in a freezing bus in the middle of a rural highway with questionable visibility. Better safe than sorry AND, I must add, that my diesel utility froze up for the first time since I bought it new in 1989. It's been real cold here.
 
Quote:"But what you're missing is that a warm object in a cold wind will cool far faster than without the wind. Ever blow on your soup/coffee to cool it? "

That only works on LIQUIDS!! Without eveporation, the temperature is just what the actual temperature is, no more, no less.
Wind chill only comes into play with exposed flesh, and it is so overused that it becomes a lot like the little boy that cried "WOLF!"
Wind chill, misery index, and "feels like" are all just more media hype. Remember the "good old days" when the news was 15 minutes and had no commercials? And a weather report was just that - without the sensationalism and hype of today?
Hopefully at some point common sense will take over.
 
I'm over here east of you in Cent. Mi and same cold and same scenario. You are correct on the "wind chill" thing but again, probably bad wording on their part. My opinion on the frequent calling off of school is this. We have a tendancy of looking back in our days and comparing with now. One big thing has changed and that is traffic at that time of day. Because of 24 hr businesses/Casinos stores factories etc there are no low traffic times on the roads anymore and therefore a lot of potential for car-bus accidents in inclement weather. Half those people are either half asleep or eating their breakfast or finishing up dressing while driving. One slammed into the rear of a school bus up here just the other day. Luckily no kids hurt. Just don't need to add another reason for an accident.
 
You know I sortof agree on wind chill not affecting machines. But a few years ago my cousin was feeding cattle with his 806 IHC. He drove out to the bale feeder (about 1/4 mile) put the bale in the feeder turned around and headed to the house the tractor instantly started to pull down. Thinking quickly, he turned around again. The tractor revved back up. It occurred to him going to the bale feeder the filters were on the down wind side. Turning around the filters were on the windward side. Bottom line he backed home. Tried it again with another bale, same thing. Got him a piece of cardboard to cover side of engine and filters. Never had any more trouble. So the wind can make a difference. Our schools closed too when it gets that cold.
 
Took my GD to preschool yesterday. Going by the high school I saw what appeared to be 3 16-17 yoa males in hoodies, shorts and flip flops in -15F weather standing across the street from the school smoking.

A lot of the reason they cancel school is because the kids are too stupid to dress for the weather and parents too stupid/whipped to demand they do so. A bus load of high schoolers in shorts and flip flops in a diesel bus at -25F? LAWSUIT just waiting to happen.

Of course, there is also some idiot on TV on one of those survival shows that wears shorts and goes barefoot in the snow, so what should we expect?!!!
 
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