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RE: Natural Gas and Coal fired power plants

O

oldtanker

Well-known Member
You should follow the money on this one.

Right now NG is cheap. The gas companies would like to change this. The only way to do that is to stop drilling/fracking or increase demand. I know around here the gas companies are trying to get all the small towns on NG. Thing of it is each town has to be the municipal supplier (no risk to the company). And it's been to court, they can't force anyone to be on NG. Another way they are trying to increase demand is with NG vehicles.

So I think somewhere someone has their hands deep in the gas companies pockets.

Rick
 
No need to stop drilling and/or fracking to cause prices to rise.

The federales are doing this by forcing all of the coal fired and, eventually nuclear generating plants to shut down.

Stay tuned.

Dean
 
Howdy, why does trying to build a market for what you produce have to equal something evil? If you make a way to seperate hydrogen from water extremely cheap. Wouldn't you set out next to establish new markets for your hydrogen? Of course the people who produce Natural Gas want to find ways to sell more of their product and for more money. We of course want the product for as little as we have to spend, and that is how business works. It is not a sinister conspiracy theory.
 
Bob, sort of like the sinister conspiracy between McDonalds and the farmers to get us hooked on cheeseburgers?...beef, cheese, wheat...get it?

Gee...Maybe the drug companies were in on that one too, so they could sell more cholesterol meds?

Hope my sarcasm is not too subtle.
 
Don't get me wrong, I don't blame the gas companies for trying to increase demand that will in turn raise the price. That's just business. I'm referring to this big push to shut down coal and maybe nuclear. And I'm not blaming any one party, they all do it. I'm just saying that I think the attempted shut down of coal is directly linked to trying to increase the demand for NG and our politicians are doing little to stop it. I think if they succeed that the price of NG will go through the roof. So it's the average job consumer who's going to take it in the shorts in both a higher price for gas and electricity, folks like you and me. Think I'll stick with LP.

Rick
 

Is it better to put it too good use, or to "flare" it?

"The volume of gas flared in the U.S. has tripled in just five years due to the boom in shale oil. And the flares from the main oil shale fields are now so great they are visible from space."

"Northwestern North Dakota is home to the Bakken shale formation, where fracking has led to an oil boom. Most of the bright lights are natural gas from wells being burned because the region lacks the infrastructure to pipe all the gas away. Gas production has increased rapidly in recent years but 30 percent is flared."

http://ecowatch.com/2013/01/28/fracking-gas-flaring-visible-from-space/

http://www.ceres.org/resources/repo...s-flaring-more-than-doubles-in-two-years/view
 
Too bad about the nuclear plants. Coal is dirty and any carbon based fuel contributes to the greenhouse effect. I've lived for 40 years within 50 miles of of a place that has had 50 or more nuclear reactors over the years and I'm still alive. You only see the horror stories in the news. Most of them are safe, cheap and clean. The ones you hear about like three mile, Japan, Chernobyl, are plants that were designed in the 60s-70s and built in the 80's. Technology marches forward, and the designs of current reactors are smaller, more powerful, and better built with more fail safe systems than 20 years ago or more. We need more of them to keep costs down and reduce out reliance on oil based products.
 
Actually it is primarily one party that wants to shut down coal. The leader of it even said they wont make coal illegal - they'll just bankrupt the users.
 
I guess I don't understand your conspiracy theory, Tanker. Are you accusing the gas companies of trying to increase their profits? That sounds vaguely anti-business.

You are correct that increased supply has caused natural gas prices to plummet. As someone who owns interest in a few gas wells, I'd sure like to see increased demand; right now two of our wells are shut down and we're collecting only about 20 percent of the royalties we were a few years ago.

I think it's great they're trying to expand their distribution. Having been on fuel oil, propane and natural gas, I'd jump at the opportunity to switch if I was in an area with no gas service.

As for natural gas-powered vehicles, they're unlikely to become more than a niche market. It makes sense for large fleet vehicles such as buses that refuel at a single station, but the high pressure tanks needed to store CNG are impractical for small passenger cars. Let's not forget that natural gas pollutes far less than gasoline or diesel, making it a good alternative to electric vehicles for city vehicles.

Again, what's your complaint? Gas companies have a commodity to sell that's currently dirt cheap and they'd like to pump up demand. Why is that a bad thing?
 
Ask those scientist that lost their ship to the growing Anarctic ice cap (its summer down there) that were going to study the effects "global warming" had on the shrinking ice cap.
 
Let's be clear: Coal has a very bad impact on the environment, in many ways. In addition to dumping sulfur and CO2 into the air, pit mines create a blight on the landscape and coal trains generate a fair amount of pollution as well. Right now we're stuck with coal because that's the majority of our power generation capacity. But we can't expect to continue to use it indefinitely; it's taking too great a toll on our environment.

Nuclear power has it's own problems. Utilities are reluctant to add new plants, given the difficulties of getting them approved and built. They can build new gas-fired plants quickly and cheaply, while building a nuke plant can mean twenty years of regulatory red tape just to get construction approval. It doesn't make sense from the utilities' point of view to invest a huge amount of money now for capacity they might not even need by the time it comes on line. Meanwhile, we still don't have a long-term solution for nuclear waste storage.

Yes, gas producers would like gas prices to go up. And if they do, your propane prices will go up as well, because the prices of all energy sources are related to each other.

Are you maybe a bit peeved because your neighbors are pressuring you to switch? Trust me, you'll be glad you did.
 
I would think if most people put solar panels on there buildings that that would be a clean energy source, kind of like Germany did! I haven't seen to many solar spills around!
 
Nothing at all wrong with coal. The way the exhaust gases are filtered has come a long way. (and made power more expensive)

If we abandon this resource now, we'll certainly return to it at some point in the future. The amounts available are vast.
 
I personally would like to see cars/trucks run on NG or Propane. Propane is 1/2 the cost of gasoline. The Schawns ice cream trucks run on Propane.
I only seen a few (like 15) NG vans/trucks, ever.
The car makers should pump out large trucks, V8s that are NG powered, then they will sell.
Fork trucks are powered by Propane, right?
 
Just yesterday, on NPR, they did a report where states are getting less gas tax, because cars are getting better mileage plus many are now using electric cars, etc. So states are now raising fees and tax to keep the cash flow up. Point is, when you try to save $$$, you will become a target all over again. So, be careful what your consumer choices become. Stay flexible and be able to switch easily.
 
That is not totally accurate. Most coal fired plants scrub CO2 emissions per EPA regs now, and will have to start scrubbing for other emissions soon. If they are strip mining they have to put the land back to its natural state once the coal has been removed. I would like to see Mountain top removal mining stopped.
 
Here in Virginia, you get to pay an extra fee if you own a hybrid. The "rationale" is that the hybrid uses less gasoline ergo pays less tax money at the pump, used for roads, and so our state government and Governor thought it was only fair to soak those owners with a fee. Doesn't apply to motorcycles.
 
What"s wrong with this? Seems your reasoning is the gas companies have a moral obligation to keep you supplied with cheap gas.
 
Blight on the landscape,,really coal mines are some of the most reclaimed sites in the country.
NO2 emmissions hardly with the scrubbers and things they have to do now days that is also a mute point. Some folks just want coal shut down.
 
They need to shut down coal plants because China needs
our coal for their plants. When somebody owns you, they
get what they want.
 
Scrubbers do not remove CO2. CO2 is formed as part of the combustion reaction. Capture of the CO2 typically requires a coal gasification or similar process rather than a conventional coal boiler.

There is a project in the southern part of Indiana to capture CO2, compress it, ship it via pipeline for sale to an oil company. It would be used for injection into an oil field for pressure management of the reservor. The Indiana project is to convert Indiana coal to synfuel, natural gas. To date the project has been hopelessly stalled in the pipeline approval process and investors demanded price support for the synfuel. The synfuel production cost is targeted at approximately $7 per million btu (natural gas currently trades at $3-$4).

The interesting part is company officals are confident that natural gas will be above $7 by the time the plant is online....?
 
A coal train passed me just yesterday. Mighty long. Stuff wasn't
black like coal I have seen from Virginia and the area. This was
sorta grey. I think it comes from Colorado or Wyoming. Must be
a different strain. Understand Houston Light and Power Co. uses
a lot of it.

On city transit, I think NG is the answer. I haven't been in a big
city for quite a spell, but the last time I was there the pollution
from the city busses on diesel was staggering. I don't know if
the LA, San Fernando Valley folks are onto NG or not. If not it
would surely help their smog problem.

Mark
 
worked for company that had a propane powered truck medium duty chevy 427 most worthless gutless truck I ever drove. Propane burns valves and heads quickly way under prowered
 
One Natural Gas power plant, uses more gas in a
day, than thousands of homes do in a month.
I believe that Natural Gas should be reserved for
homes, and power plants should burn coal.
There are enough coal reserves, at present rate of
use, for 2 hundred years, by that time we"ll run out of gas, and the tree huggers will stop
protesting nuclear power.
I don"t believe that the U.S. should ship ANY
Natural resource,Coal-Gas-oil, to China, or any
other country. We will need it all someday!
 
if ng for electric generation is so great then they
would not be shutting down and then abandoning coal
fired plants, they would be converting them to ng.
land, buildings, generators, switchboard, infrasture
and personnel already in place. truth is; there is
not enough btu' s in a deliverable amount to
generate electricity on a large scale with ng.
hydro plants are fixed and available water varies.
no new nuclear proposed, limited number currently
being built and existing reaching it's life
expectancy. post on investments below; perhaps we
need to stockpile "cow chips".
 
Coal Trains...In NE and CO I have seen loaded coal trains going both East and West. Was told the coal is different. ???? Trains were 100 cars, and 100 ton on each car. They were loaded and un-loaded on the go. remember when Diesel was less than Gas, and we all went out and bought Diesel pickups. Mine are Diesel and plan on keeping them that way. Until they come out with a good wood burner. HA HA
 
I think most of you guys missed it. It's an ongoing thing. BOTH parties do it. This was more on the fact that business is business. If the NG companies can sell more they will be able to raise prices and will. But the whole thing is that the government is not only supporting this effort, they are doing so knowing that the outcome will be higher NG and electric cost for the consumer. And basically this proves that both parties are neck deep in doing stuff like this. Coal is dumping money into one party's coffers and NG the other.

People have mentioned solar power. It's only supplemental, not a main power source. Plus they strip mine to get the silica to make them. Right now it's not a big deal but if the US would start a program to try to put solar panels on ever roof the amounts stripped mined would be huge.

Dams with hydro power are becoming a thing of the past with tree huggers yelling about migrating fish and the amount of land covered up by water.

So right now the only way for the US to produce the power needed to run our homes and factories is with steam generated power. Nuclear, NG and coal are all doing the same job. Nuclear has gotten to the point of just being too expensive and too potentially dangerous. NG just doesn't have the BTU's of coal.

Anyone remember "cap and trade"? The whole point of cap and trade is to actually force more manufacturing off shore so as to bring the world more in line for income and standards of living. The down side is that for countries like the US it cost jobs. It's not going to raise the standard of living much in 3rd world countries but it will lower the overall standard of living in the US.

The whole point of this whole mess is politics and political agenda's. All major and some minor parties are involved so no need for name calling.

Rick
 
> coal mines are some of the most reclaimed sites in the country

JM, that's well and good, but West Virginia will have to change its name from the Mountain State to the Flat State.
 
Most of the coal moving from Wyoming to Denver travels east into Nebraska, then west to Denver. There's not enough north-south rail capacity between Denver and Wyoming to handle the demand. The coal you saw was probably all destined for Denver.
 
Rick,
Who ownes big oil, big electric, big gas?
Is it just one individual?
Could it be stock holders? Could it be investors? Could it be pension funds?
George
 
Schwanns also gets HUGE tax incentive from Gov for running propane. The newer fords they run are propane port injected . They have training classes for vendors that work on their trucks. Pretty cool stuff.
.
 
Does anyone other than myself find it rather strange that those who shout loudest about the US becoming energy independent also are the most negative about any and all attempts to accomplish that feat i.e. nuclear, natural gas, solar, hydroelectric, wind???
 

Powder River Basin coal is soft, burns clean but has low btu's. Eastern Anthracite burns with lots of btu's but is "dirtier" and is blended with soft clean coal or the power plant can't make rated power.
 
There is no energy problem.
The problem are opportunists on all sides who manipulate the market and media to their own ends.
 
I thought The EPA and Obumer were the ones that wanted to rid of coal. Wow it"s the oil companys. I Guess Big oil is the cause of all the worlds problems. BAH!! Humbug
 
Not to get Political, but, I think we need to change our government. These guys that have made a career out of politics have destroyed our way of life. GET OUT AND VOTE, and NEVER RE-ELECT, vote someone NEW in. MAKE THEM earn a second term.
Here in Illinois all coal used in power plants, has to be washed. The town next to ours is fighting a coal co. expansion. They will need 1 million Gallons of Water, each day to wash the coal. What are they going to do with the Contaminated water? What will happen to the poor ole farmer on his own well? Hey Mr. Farmer, come to town and we will sell you water, IF WE HAVE ANY.
 
We could write a book on this one. In summary natural gas is currently cheap but has had big swings in price over the years.
The price of coal had remained relatively steady, most price changes have been market driven as well as inflation adjusted and the added cost of mining coal that is lower in sulfur. This seems to be a secret but coal fired power plants have reduced emissions nearly 90% since 1970.
Think of the cost of coal fired power electricity and the number of high paying direct and indirect jobs it produces. Coal wins hands down.
 
(quoted from post at 09:39:51 01/01/14) Does anyone other than myself find it rather strange that those who shout loudest about the US becoming energy independent also are the most negative about any and all attempts to accomplish that feat i.e. nuclear, natural gas, solar, hydroelectric, wind???
Click to expand...

Yup, it's called the "NIMBY Effect"- Not In My Back Yard! One of the most glaring and hypocritical examples is the solar industry. Everyone want solar panels because they're so "green". But no one wants anyone mining the minerals or manufacturing the steel, plastics, aluminum and glass to make them. They want wind power, but not near where they live or where it might hurt a bird or mar the view. They want hyrdo but no dams. They want algae farms, but not in their towns. They want oil, but not drilling, refining or processing. They want electricity but they don't want power plants. Don't even mention nukes.

People are stupid, selfish creatures for the most part. A few winters of cutting their own wood to burn in their own houses, having to buy and fuel kerosene lamps, having to walk or go horseback or on bicycle everywhere and a percentage would wake up, some would never get it though.
 
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