OT--V4 engine

Jiles

Well-known Member
Years ago, I had a Saab with a V-4 engine. I drove this car for many trouble free miles. I believe it was a Ford "Cardinal" engine and was an experimented prototype?
Anyway--why is this V-4 configuration not used today, especially in a front wheel drive?
To my memory, this engine looked like a 289 V-8 with two cylinders absent.
That means it would be, in my opinion, well suited for the FWD configuration.
I just assume it would be more expensive to manufacture.
 
Just not worth the extra expense of a V. The purpose of a V is to
reduce the length of an engine and an inline 4 is not that long.
 
To be honest, I hadn't given it any thought, but you're right, it does seem like it would be just as well suited for fwd applications as it would take less room in the engine compartment. I know that Wisconsin manufactured 2 and 4 cyl. V type engines for industrial and agricultural use. There may be, as you mentioned, cost of production involved, but I can't see any problems there. The only reason that I can think of for not using such a design is that, generally speaking, an in-line engine develops more torque than a V type, and with only four cylinders, as most vehicles are equipped today, torque is an important factor, especially where acceleration is concerned.
 
(quoted from post at 16:48:05 12/13/13) To be honest, I hadn't given it any thought, but you're right, it does seem like it would be just as well suited for fwd applications as it would take less room in the engine compartment. I know that Wisconsin manufactured 2 and 4 cyl. V type engines for industrial and agricultural use. There may be, as you mentioned, cost of production involved, but I can't see any problems there. The only reason that I can think of for not using such a design is that, generally speaking, an in-line engine develops more torque than a V type, and with only four cylinders, as most vehicles are equipped today, torque is an important factor, especially where acceleration is concerned.

Torque?--yes but stroke could be longer in a V type engine.
Ever wonder why Chrysler leaned their Slant Six engine. To accommodate a Long stroke--engine would have been too tall for practical under hood application in cars and trucks.
I am sure there is a logical answer but I have wondered about this for a long time.
 
I have a Saab Sonett with the V 4 engine. It was die signed as
an industrial engine buy Ford the picked up Ford Taunus of
Gremany the Saab was looking for a replacement for their 3
Cyl 2 cylcal engine. They were 1st used straight from
Germany and were silver in color then Saab started making
them and they changed to Blue color ( I have the Blue engine)
next when the Sonett 3 came out it increase to 1700 CC and
painted black. A great engine mine has 350K on it. It hard to
get a lot of HP FROM the little engine so they went to an inline
4 from England for the 99 model. Should stayed with the little
V4 it was a much better engine. I bought mine new with a
lifetime warrantee but I guess I have outlived my warrantee.
Walt
 
I forgot the V4 configuration is the roughest running of all engines and requires a balance shaft to make it run smooth.
Walt
 
V4 configuration is quite common in motorcycles... I think that it is for space saving... With it only being a 4 cylinder engine, I don't think that is a space issue for most cars.
 
(quoted from post at 17:38:48 12/13/13) I forgot the V4 configuration is the roughest running of all engines and requires a balance shaft to make it run smooth.
Walt
In Line Four cylinder engines do also.
 
(quoted from post at 18:48:57 12/13/13) I had 2 of those 225 CID slant sixes. Great engines. That is a mouthful for a Ford man like me. LOL
Several years ago,I remember reading in Car&Driver that the "slant six" was arguably the best engine ever mass produced.
I have owned many.
But if you worked on them, sometimes you wished they had slanted it the other way LOL !!
 
Opposed four engines (VW beetle) balance somewhat better than inline fours and 90 degree V-fours.
 
Saab V4 was from the Ford Taunus front drive, was also designed for a midship/rear engine design that didn"t make it to market- but some styling features of Mustang. The V4 design meant a "longitudinal" mounting similar to Renaults, same transaxle pattern instead of the BMC mini cross engine mounting that had some spacing issues for radiator, transmission, drive axles. V4 got short nose of a cross mount, inline drivetrain. Lancia had a similar narrow angle V4, design is known advantage of size, known vibration issue, known induction advantages and exhaust location. The V6 Taunus/Capri derived from it- same cylinder angle, same high mounted camshaft, same short pushrods, same shorter , more even induction path- the 4.1 Ford Ranger pickups engine is a long stroke derivative.
SAAB was looking for a engine that could fit in the 3 cylinder frame/body and meet EPA standards in some markets(US) at the time and near future(Common Market) while getting the newer body figured out. The Ford V4 tucked in nicely, Ford was willing seller to a not major car competitor that gave some aircraft research to Ford Defense. The Chrysler slant six designers had a minor problem with their proposed OHV replacement for the old flathead 6- the new car bodies of the compacts were sized for the old flathead and tooling, molds had to be paid for first before newer higher hood body could be made, lots of sheet metal already being stamped. Some other users of the flathead 6 also said they couldn"t afford to change engine compartments if Chrysler quit making the flathead and didn"t have one to fit- was a Gleaner(?) model combine that otherwise would have to buy Continental flatheads or Studebaker. SO, slant the new OHV over until it can fit under hood of Darts, tuck into Gleaners. While you have it slanted- put the starter toward upper left of bellhousing for fair access, do the long U for intake manifold for more even induction compared to "log" manifold and get center cylinder less rich fouling, end cylinders less lean out compared to tucked in manifold. Water pump, power steering pump less crowded on left side also. It worked good at 170 cubic inches and little bore and 4 inch stroke got to the 225 inch size that had good torque, decent RPM from light piston, and good flame front of smaller bore meant slight advantage on EPA testing. a minor advantage in Illinois/Chicago when I was driving delivery there was the hp tax was under the big sticker price- a 225 Dodge got a under 35hp sticker, a 250 Chevy, 240 Ford got a over 35hp sticker and cost another $20.00 or so and insurance class followed the tax class. For the Jeep people with FC170 frames- the 225 OHV could be tucked into the engine compartment. It was tight, needed some shoehorning and hammer the side panels- but the longer, higher Ford and Chevys 7 bearing crank, big bores wouldn"t fit without the cutting torch and welder work. some other hot rodding with the slant 6 was done in some similar tight clearance situations- the small V8 for the Chrysler compacts had same size problem and the 273 had low manifolds, reduced airfilter size, tight exhausts--and was tucked into the Roots bodied Sunbeam Alpines as competitor to the Ford engine AC Bristol conversions that lead to the Cobra. The adapter plates to swap in the slant six had already been made for the hot rodders doing slant 6 into Triumph Heralds, Studabakers and the 273 V8 had bolt pattern compatibility.
RN
 
Subaru still uses the flat opposed 4 cyl.

And for nosgalia buffs lets not forget about the slant 4 used in the IHC Scouts. 1/2 of the 345 V8
 
(quoted from post at 20:22:17 12/13/13) Saab V4 was from the Ford Taunus front drive, was also designed for a midship/rear engine design that didn"t make it to market- but some styling features of Mustang. The V4 design meant a "longitudinal" mounting similar to Renaults, same transaxle pattern instead of the BMC mini cross engine mounting that had some spacing issues for radiator, transmission, drive axles. V4 got short nose of a cross mount, inline drivetrain. Lancia had a similar narrow angle V4, design is known advantage of size, known vibration issue, known induction advantages and exhaust location. The V6 Taunus/Capri derived from it- same cylinder angle, same high mounted camshaft, same short pushrods, same shorter , more even induction path- the 4.1 Ford Ranger pickups engine is a long stroke derivative.
SAAB was looking for a engine that could fit in the 3 cylinder frame/body and meet EPA standards in some markets(US) at the time and near future(Common Market) while getting the newer body figured out. The Ford V4 tucked in nicely, Ford was willing seller to a not major car competitor that gave some aircraft research to Ford Defense. The Chrysler slant six designers had a minor problem with their proposed OHV replacement for the old flathead 6- the new car bodies of the compacts were sized for the old flathead and tooling, molds had to be paid for first before newer higher hood body could be made, lots of sheet metal already being stamped. Some other users of the flathead 6 also said they couldn"t afford to change engine compartments if Chrysler quit making the flathead and didn"t have one to fit- was a Gleaner(?) model combine that otherwise would have to buy Continental flatheads or Studebaker. SO, slant the new OHV over until it can fit under hood of Darts, tuck into Gleaners. While you have it slanted- put the starter toward upper left of bellhousing for fair access, do the long U for intake manifold for more even induction compared to "log" manifold and get center cylinder less rich fouling, end cylinders less lean out compared to tucked in manifold. Water pump, power steering pump less crowded on left side also. It worked good at 170 cubic inches and little bore and 4 inch stroke got to the 225 inch size that had good torque, decent RPM from light piston, and good flame front of smaller bore meant slight advantage on EPA testing. a minor advantage in Illinois/Chicago when I was driving delivery there was the hp tax was under the big sticker price- a 225 Dodge got a under 35hp sticker, a 250 Chevy, 240 Ford got a over 35hp sticker and cost another $20.00 or so and insurance class followed the tax class. For the Jeep people with FC170 frames- the 225 OHV could be tucked into the engine compartment. It was tight, needed some shoehorning and hammer the side panels- but the longer, higher Ford and Chevys 7 bearing crank, big bores wouldn"t fit without the cutting torch and welder work. some other hot rodding with the slant 6 was done in some similar tight clearance situations- the small V8 for the Chrysler compacts had same size problem and the 273 had low manifolds, reduced airfilter size, tight exhausts--and was tucked into the Roots bodied Sunbeam Alpines as competitor to the Ford engine AC Bristol conversions that lead to the Cobra. The adapter plates to swap in the slant six had already been made for the hot rodders doing slant 6 into Triumph Heralds, Studabakers and the 273 V8 had bolt pattern compatibility.
RN
Very good information---
I am not trying to be pickey, but I think all the 225 ci engines had a 4 1/8 or 4 1/4" stroke ??
 
Don't know about the inline four being more expensive, with a V-4 you
have two heads, two exhaust manifolds, a more complex exhaust system
and for small cars in this country a straight 4 fits just fine. Heck
in a few cases they proved a straight 5 fits and works well (VW/Audi,
Mercedes, Volvo and GM) Some straight fours were a six cylinder with
two lopped off but still using a lot of common parts between the 4
and six like water pumps, rods, pistons, oil pumps and maybe even the
same tooling to build. If you start with a v-8 we've seen them
morphed into V-6s and v-10s, but cutting the engine size by half-
from a v-8 to a v-4 isn't maybe a sound idea, some of the parts the
worked okay when we added or subtracted 25% will be under or
oversized at 50%. As another poster pointed out there have been a few
v-4 to v-6 developments and maybe some backwards (v-6 to v-4) we
don't know about. Also consider many of our 4's are OHC engines and a
big long timing chain or belt for a V-4 will be a lot more complex
and have to be stronger heavier to last as long as a simpler, shorter
version needed for the inline engine. Timing belts kill a lot of cars
when they break, do you really want more timing belt greif?
 
(quoted from post at 15:56:24 12/13/13) Subaru still uses the flat opposed 4 cyl.

And for nosgalia buffs lets not forget about the slant 4 used in the IHC Scouts. 1/2 of the 345 V8
ontiac Tempest had an even larger 1/2 V8 vibrator!
As for the V4, well that answer ought to be terribly obvious. Not a good solution, otherwise it would have flourished rather than died. Many factors: vibration, cost, commonality for production tooling, etc., etc. Oh, yes, while here, V, flat horizontal, inline are not a factor in torque. Torque is a matter of displacement, cylinder pressure, crank throw length(stroke) and relative rod length, not V, horiz, inline.
 
The sunbeam Alpine never had a Chrysler V8 in it (unless it was an owner conversion) all standard alpines had 4 cylinder engines (some a little bit laid down at a slight angle) The Sunbeam Tiger, and Tiger II were Ford powered Shelby motivated Alpines. 260 then 289cid. (Not a flame, just solid experiential reality) Jim
 
(quoted from post at 17:15:04 12/14/13) The sunbeam Alpine never had a Chrysler V8 in it (unless it was an owner conversion) all standard alpines had 4 cylinder engines (some a little bit laid down at a slight angle) The Sunbeam Tiger, and Tiger II were Ford powered Shelby motivated Alpines. 260 then 289cid. (Not a flame, just solid experiential reality) Jim
That's what I was thinking. I do know that some Jensens were equipped with Chrysler engines, particularly the wedge 440.
 
(quoted from post at 09:49:14 12/14/13) Didn't both Saab and Porsche built a flat four ? The Saab engine is often transplanted into homebuilt aircraft.

Don't know about a Saab flat 4 but remember Saab's 2 stroke 3 cyl.I think that would have been a candidate for H/B and ultra light aircraft.
On second thought since that Saab engine is liquid cooled it may not such be such a good engine for light A/C.
 

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