Hydrogen fuel cell in cars

Geo-TH,In · Nov 22, 2013

This is what is making news, Toyota, Honda and Hyundai have Hydrogen fuel cells the works.

I would still like to know where are we going to get hydrogen from a clean energy? Windmills may be the only clean source.
Hydrogen fuel cell in cars.

HenryO · Nov 22, 2013

its made from natural gas and the byproduct is H2O non polluting. Best deal in renewable energy for transportation that has come a;long

old · Nov 22, 2013

Not way it will work well just like electric cars etc. Know a guy who had to replace the batteries in his hybrid and it cost him $2500 plus another $300 to reprogram the computer. What savings is that over gas

Dblair · Nov 22, 2013

my niece had her controller go bad in her Prius , which ruined her transmission . cost 12000 for the replacements. it was 4 yrs old . she only bought the extended warranty last year after her 3 year ran out. the extended cost 2 grand and covered the total cost . I'm not going to buy one of those cars they just look like they are going to be expensive or maybe they are going to be that way .

OH2IL · Nov 22, 2013

The process of producing the H2 from the natural gas is a very energy intensive process (lots of CO2 produced).

buickanddeere · Nov 22, 2013

Where does the carbon in the CH4 go ?

JMOR · Nov 22, 2013

Kinda reminds me of an old 60's song with lyrics something like, "...its just a dream". :roll:

Bob M · Nov 22, 2013

Conspicuously absent from the article is any mention of the COST of hydrogen fuel.

I did a bit of hydrogen production cost research. From this a simple calculation yields price estimates for fuel-grade, compressed hydrogen gas.

Estimates below are for 1.1 kg of hydrogen gas, the energy equivalent of 1 gallon of gasoline:

- Hydrogen reformed from natural gas: $4.89
- Hydrogen reformed from ethanol: $5.03
- Hydrogen produced by electrolysis (dissociation of water by electricity): $13.50

If the hydrogen is delivered as cryogenic liquid rather than compressed gas (required to store enough hydrogen fuel onboard to give a car any kind of useful range), bump the above prices 40% - 50%.

Incidentally these prices are wholesale at the H2 plant. Costs for transportation, storage, taxes, etc. are neglected. (For comparison, the wholesale price of unleaded regular gasoline today is $2.71.)

----

With due respect, dreamy-eyed liberals that proclaim hydrogen is the "fuel of the future" are idiots. From an economic perspective, hydrogen as a motor fuel simply makes no sense.

JMOR · Nov 22, 2013

(quoted from post at 23:36:13 11/22/13) Conspicuously absent from the article is any mention of the COST of hydrogen fuel.

I did a bit of hydrogen production cost research. From this a simple calculation yields price estimates for fuel-grade, compressed hydrogen gas.

Estimates below are for 1.1 kg of hydrogen gas, the energy equivalent of 1 gallon of gasoline:

- Hydrogen reformed from natural gas: $4.89
- Hydrogen reformed from ethanol: $5.03
- Hydrogen produced by electrolysis (dissociation of water by electricity): $13.50

If the hydrogen is delivered as cryogenic liquid rather than compressed gas (required to store enough hydrogen fuel onboard to give a car any kind of useful range), bump the above prices 40% - 50%.

Incidentally these prices are wholesale at the H2 plant. Costs for transportation, storage, taxes, etc. are neglected. (For comparison, the wholesale price of unleaded regular gasoline today is $2.71.)

----

With due respect, dreamy-eyed liberals that proclaim hydrogen is the "fuel of the future" are idiots. From an economic perspective, hydrogen as a motor fuel simply makes no sense.

f course you are correct! If it made sense, investors are not stupid, they would be making money on it! They are investing elsewhere! DUH!

big fred · Nov 22, 2013

Hydroelectric is pretty clean.

Rick Kr · Nov 22, 2013

I mentioned below Honda and GM already had their hydrogen vehicles out since 2007.

Typical pressures with hydrogen are approx. 10,000-10,500 psi (700 bar). Very few locations able to fill at this pressure in the US. Another way to fill is off a semi. You can only get a "short fill" to approximately 5000psi (350 bar). So your effective range is cut in half.

I have worked with alternative fuels on an off for the last 10 years. From CNG, LNG, LPG, hydrogen (aka fuel cells) etc. There is no magic.

Without infrastructure to support any of these fuels they will not become mainstream. We then could enter the discussion of BTUs per pound. Whole different animal there.

Rick

Dan T in MO · Nov 23, 2013

Hydro is clean? Between Old and I is a hydro-electric dam. It is the largest privately funded dam in the world, and it produces less than 2% of the electricity sold by Ameren (The power company that now owns and operates the dam.)

Behind the dam is 93 linear miles of flooded Osage River bottom land plus ~15 miles along each of the Grand Auglaize Creek, Gravois Creek and the Niangua River. Besides the lost farmland, many towns were also flooded.
Old Linn Creek

60 acre hillside · Nov 23, 2013

There is a related novel THE JUDAS TREE

Bret4207 · Nov 23, 2013

George, there is no truly clean energy. It's a game of relative comparisons. Consider the carbon footprint involved in producing, setting and maintaining just one of those monster windmills. Then multiply that by thousands. I'm not against wind or solar or anything other than wastefully inefficient ideas like ethanol, but you have to be realistic and look at the big picture.

If you want clean, renewable motive transportation them you either use human or animal power. Next would be wind powered sail, not real handy in most places. Next in line would be rail I imagine, probably electric rail with maybe hydro or geo thermal production. Everything else is totally out there as far as your carbon goes. That's huge jump from animal to anything else. So I think people need to stop getting all wound up about "carbon" if they want to live a lifestyle past 1820 or so.

These discussions remind me of the discussions you have with meat eaters who can't stand hunting, they prefer their meat from the grocery store where no animals were harmed in producing the meat........

Geo-TH,In · Nov 23, 2013

Rick,
Did Honda and GM use a fuel cell in 2007? A fuel cell is way more efficient than internal combusiton. Not to mention way more expensive.

I think in the 90's GM, Honda and Toyota experimented with CNG, which didn't catch on.
George.

John T · Nov 23, 2013

MOST REFRESHING Always good to hear it from a scientific and a Mechanical Engineers perspective versus all the "know it all" Billy Bobs of the world out there....

Take care Bob

John T

oldtanker · Nov 23, 2013

George: The big problems here are disinformation. The biggest single source of air pollution in the US is factories. Vehicles have become pretty clean and now plant emissions are the problem. The government downplays this because many smaller companies just can't afford to clean up their act and keep the doors open. It would cost millions of jobs if they enforced the clean air regulations. Maybe all that stimulus money wasted on failed electric car companies and failed solar energy companies should have been spent installing scrubbers and filters on smoke stacks.

Rick

Hay hay hay · Nov 23, 2013

George, First these are concept cars, not production models. Gets lots of positive PR with no real industry impact.

Your question is a good one. I am surprised that most people have no concept of the huge industry and infrastructure needed to supply the energy they consume.
They just plug in the TV and it plays, but they do not see the huge powerplants, coal barges, fields of distribution stations etc.

The appeal of hydrogen is that everyone has the basic material, they do not need to go to the Middle east to get it....ahh...but where will they get the energy to make it? That is why your question is so realevant.

The same debate is still going on about using vast amounts of petroleum to make ethanol. Is it efficient? Some say yes, some say no! In that case it seems like the producers will turn a blind eye if they are getting a govt. subsidy.

Lets face it. Even a cooking fire in a tepee causes some pollution ..but so does a volcano?

Janicholson · Nov 23, 2013

Bob is absolutely correct. Most people,s crystal ball shines with what they want to see rather than what is. Jim

buickanddeere · Nov 23, 2013

Ever price a 3MW wind turbine and figure it"s capacity factor?

buickanddeere · Nov 23, 2013

Problem nobody lives, works, shops , goes to church and marries within 10 miles of home. A 30mile drive to do anything seems to be the norm.
Wouldn't it be more practical to drive less instead of driving farther with more technology.

buickanddeere · Nov 23, 2013

Ever see the movie "the last race "? There is the answer the zealots in the EPA want.

Bus Driver · Nov 23, 2013

News story about Duke Energy paying a million dollar fine for eagles killed by wind generating towers. The "law" requires ever increasing amounts of electricity to be generated from renewable sources.
The million will be paid by those who use electricity.
Much of the hydrogen in the world is chemically combined with oxygen, forming water. It can be separated from the oxygen by electricity or by certain chemical reactions. There just ain't no "free" hydrogen.

Jerry/MT · Nov 23, 2013

Don"t forget the safety aspects of dealing with hydrogen. It is dangerous. It"s almost impossible to keep fittings sealed with gaseous hydrogen in the lines.

Bob M · Nov 23, 2013

Amen to the safety issue too!

We used gaseous hydrogen in a process at the GM plant where I worked in the 1970's. It was nearly impossible to maintain the supply system completely free of small leaks. Hydrogen will leak thru sub-microscopic imperfections to pipe/fittings/solder joints that no other gas can pass.

The H2 system was in fact so dangerous GM's fire insurance company required ALL hydrogen distribution piping/valving be located outside on the roof. Only the shortest possible vertical drop to the point of use inside was permitted.
Even then the system suffered occasional leaks/fires - also several small explosions - from leaking H2 gas.

Bottom line: High cost aside, bulk hydrogen is simply TOO DANGEROUS to be entrusted to the general motoring public!

LenND · Nov 23, 2013

Our local utility (natural gas) company runs all of its vehicles on natural gas. They also have an outlet for customers to fill their vehicles with gas.

Jeff B. · Nov 23, 2013

Couldn't they make a hydrogen powered machine for producing more hydrogen?

Anonymous-0 · Nov 24, 2013

All of this energy stuff should be sorted out by the FREE MARKET PRICE. Get the government out entirely, and all prices go back to the regular pecking order of price per unit of measurement. Much more efficient than playing politics to buy votes!

Hydrogen fuel cell in cars

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