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OT - Lionel train set

M

mkirsch

Well-known Member
Being a total hypocrite here on the OT stuff, but the train forums I've found are all dead dead dead. Hoping someone here might also play with model trains.

I decided to resurrect the old Lionel train set my brother and I played with back in the early '80s. Going to set it up under the Christmas tree for the nephews.

I added two NOS switches to the layout. Same exact MANUAL type as the ones already there.

Every time the engine passes over one of the new switches, it shorts out and trips the breaker in the transformer.

It has no problems with the "old" switches or any of the rest of the track.
 

Have you put an ohm meter on the tracks? I am trying to think how those things work, does current just go through one rail? I remember my HO gague had two leads, one to each rail. But if your switch is shorted out, wouldn't it short out the whole track?

Something aint right. Their aint no damsel in distress roped up and tied to the train track is there? I think it is the work of Snidley Whiplash! Wasn't that his name?

Gene
 
Something has to be uniquely wrong with that switch. Compare it to the one that works. Center rail has to be isolated from other two, but something must be shorting when the train goes over. Try it with just a car, not engine, and see if it still shorts.
 
In my shop there's a big old box with the Lionel Train Set (just basics as I recall, steam lookin engine, track and a few cars) I got for Christmas almost 60 years ago. I guess I need to dig that out someday.... I do have a picture of me and an Uncle showing it set up on a piece of plywood in the living room floor.

PS I love to watch Toy Trains on RFD TV

John T
 
My friend, Clyde, had a Lionel train set up in the attic of his folks big old farmhouse. He took great delight in setting up a long straight track that ended at the wall and running the locomotive into the wall at the highest possible velocity. Over and over again. The plug in for the transformer consisted of two bare wires. Good old Clyde. A few years later he was a pilot in the Air Force flying B-47s and then B-52s.
 
What gauge O or HO and what does the switch do. Sound like
something is wired different in the switch and causing the
trouble.
Walt
 
Check the insulating paper. Old Lionel track can short when that black fiber paper gives up it"s insulating abilities. I believe also if there's a baseplate on the bottom of the switch, sometimes they also can corrode, causing a short.
Good luck; nothing like the smell of smoke fluid and ozone filling a room to bring back childhood memories!
Dave
 
O gauge is a 3-rail system. I think juice flows between the center rail and one of the outer rails.

The switch isn't normally shorted, or else it would be like you say. The whole thing would be shorted all the time.

It's only when the engine gets on top of the switch that there are problems.
 
It sounds like you have a reverse loop in your track setup & the switch you are using is not set up with an open frog. An example of a reverse loop would be a balloon track. If you were to start off with a section of straight track, put a switch on the end of it & loop the track around from one switch point to the other, that creates a simple reverse loop i.e. your + & - are going the right way until they get turned around returning to the switch where they encounter - & +. You would either need to eliminate the reverse loop or isolate, with track pin insulators, one complete section of track that receives it's power from a DPDT switch. That way, you have control over the polarity. Lionel & K-Line also made a (track) switch that is setup to route the power for you. You still have to insulate your balloon track, but power routing is far easier.

Mike
 
I think below is a good start, but also, try running the
train the other way.
Best thing to do would be use the ohm meter, and
compare the 2 turnouts.

Be glad your past the big problem with old toy/model
trains-the engine runs!

You also might have ok luck with Model Railroader/
Classic Toy Trains. In addition to a form, they should
have some articles free to view, and the subject has
probably been covered 1000 times there.
 
(quoted from post at 12:43:25 11/22/13) It sounds like you have a reverse loop in your track setup & the switch you are using is not set up with an open frog. An example of a reverse loop would be a balloon track. If you were to start off with a section of straight track, put a switch on the end of it & loop the track around from one switch point to the other, that creates a simple reverse loop i.e. your + & - are going the right way until they get turned around returning to the switch where they encounter - & +. You would either need to eliminate the reverse loop or isolate, with track pin insulators, one complete section of track that receives it's power from a DPDT switch. That way, you have control over the polarity. Lionel & K-Line also made a (track) switch that is setup to route the power for you. You still have to insulate your balloon track, but power routing is far easier.

Mike
Click to expand...
M Farmer, I don't think the old Lionel 3 rail has that problem, as the two outer rails are one common conductor & the center rail is the other.
 
If the switches are the "027 type" (brown plastic basis) there were a number that were manufactured poorly. For some years the 3rd rail in the center of the switch is wider than it should be. This was maybe also to accommodate engines with center pick up spacing issues. So I think whats happening in your case, as it did for me, is the flange of an engine wheel is bridging the gap between the outside rail and the extra wide center rail. I used a thin strip of good quality electrical tape along the edge of that center rail and it seemed to help. You can also try insulating one of the outside rails until there is no more problem. You only need one outside rail at a time to complete the circuit to the xfmr so insulating one will not be a problem.
 
Good to get the train out. I have found running them on carpet makes static that pulls fibres up and clogs the pickup shoe, bringing everything to a stop.
 
Gave my son a Lional train set for his 3rd birthday. Still ave the original packaging. worth ???????? He Don't intend to sell. LOU.
 
Absent Minded Farmer,

The new switches I added are for a new reversing loop.

I've found some information that shows using insulating pins in the frog rails of O gauge switches. My two NOS switches didn't come with any insulating pins, so I didn't know to use them.

When I get home this evening I'll install insulating pins and see if that helps.
 
Are you asking for a value or just thinking out loud? For any true value assessment collectors would look at:
year of manufacture
paint scheme or lettering variations
condition of boxes
Lionels hold their value quite well even if slightly scratched or damaged...altho the prices have come down quite a bit in recent years. Am Flyer on the other hand need be almost pristine to hold any value. Several price guides are published - the best I've found is Greenberg's pocket price guide.
 
Cue P. has it. The brown O-27 switches were indeed poorly made. Now that I had some time to think on it, my Dad & I used the electric K-Line remote switches everywhere but the yard. The yard was setup with the newer, brown O-27 switches that caused nothing but problems. So, we changed them out to the older Lionel 1022 (black base with red target) manual switches with power routing frog. This gave us the ability to park an engine in the siding while running a different one & far less issues with random shorting.

So, no, you don't have to worry about a reverse loop, as the 3-rail system eliminates that problem. It would be the same as running under catenary, duh. You may have to 86 the brown O-27 switches & I might have to brush-up on my three rail.

Mike

P.S. That "duh" was directed at me BTW.
 
Man, you guys are making me feel old. I had a Lionel in the mid '50s. I set it up in the "living room" while Dad worked on the rest of our new house. He always took time to cut me blocks to make elevated trestles if I couldn't find any scrap. I still have a few cars and the engines. Cars were plastic.

Larry
 
First off try these folks:

http://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/

I haven't been on for a while but there is a lot of really bright guys on here.

Second, if it's an 0-27 switch, especially ones made in the 80s, they could be pretty crappy.

I have a bunch of O-27 stuff, I like the new Fast track or the old O-31 personally.

K
 
Depending on the power connector you used, the power is always in a center rail and in an outer rail. Which outer rail depends.
To use the ohm meter, refer to the picture, but you check to see if you have conductivity at matching letters, none between different letters, and check by your locomotive over. In this case, having two good and two bad switches, it is simplified in that you use the good one to know how it should behave. I think the each of the 3 rails are isolated from each other.

In this case, the short occurs either due to a locomotive wheel or center roller/shoe (with 1980's vintage, probably a shoe), but the turnout is got something wrong with it, as the shoe/roller/wheel shouldn't cause the short.

I know it can be figured out this way, as I fixed one once just playing with it till I found the problem, then drilled out the rivets, flied it up side down and soldered in a bit of wire on one. Sadly, that was a 2 or 3 years ago, and till thanksgiving, I'm 100+ miles away from it.
a136082.jpg
 
John T, I like to watch the trains too. If you ever make it to the Clay County fair in Spencer IA, they have a very large HO scale layout. We go every year, and it never gets old.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_XK8I1poQaE

Mike
 
I still have my Marx train from the 1940"s in the toy box my Dad made for it in my toy room. I think about getting it out but that is as far as it goes. I built train boards for both of my boys. The one for my oldest son is long gone. The younger son still has his but it is stored in the attic of his garage. Both were HO. I have a bunch of N gage stuff I planed on building a glass table for but it is all still in the boxes.
 
My set from late 40's is in the attic. Has the cattle car that loads the little black cows, the log roller tankers, coal car, 4 track switchers, A bunch of street light, a metal bridge, some plastic evergreen trees, a depot, lots of town stuff to snap together.
Mom would tolerate it set up in the dining room on the wood floor for about 5 days. Then it went back in the boxes.
 
Nothing I've tried so far has helped 100%, but it is better.

I put in insulating pins.
I wrapped the sides of the center "paddle" in the turnout with thin strips of duct tape so that the drive wheels couldn't make contact.

It's BETTER, but every once in a while, the engine will just stop dead right on the switch and the transformer will go "doonk... doonk..." indicating a short.
 
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