Planting Hay on Hay

picassomcp · Oct 24, 2013

I have just finished my 3rd season of making hay off of a few pieces that had hay on them when I bought it. I've just continued to make the hay that was already there. The crop has thinned, I'm sure the stands are getting older. I'm thinking about plowing up a few of the smaller pieces and reseeding them into some better hay. I talked with a friend about this, he didn't recommend plowing up hay then replanting hay. He said I should put a different crop in for a few years then go back to hay. Would you recommend the same??

I've only got hay equipment, I do have a plow, disc, drag and a drill, so replanting hay would be easy enough. I don't have a combine and really don't care to take on that expense and maintenance to do a few acres for a few years until I can get it back into hay.

Or, should I just fertilize the pizz out of the current stand? Its getting pretty grassy, but does still have some clover and other varieties of hay I don't recognize. I feed my hay to beef cattle and sell some hay that goes to horses. If the grass isn't hurting anything, why plow it under?? Honestly, I haven't put any fertilizer on these pieces in the 3 years I've been making the hay, could be all it needs is fertilizer? the last 2 years, we got very little rain in August, both years it just killed my 2nd crop production and I didn't get a 3rd either year. Just looking to get a little more production out of my acreage, I'm willing to put some time and money into increasing production, I just wanna put it where its gonna make the biggest difference. This is Central MN, a 1/2 hour east of St. Cloud.

Any thoughts? or suggestions.

David G · Oct 24, 2013

What kind of hay is it?

picassomcp · Oct 24, 2013

Mostly clover, That's all I recognize as I don't know my grasses well. Had a hay buyer dig through the bales last year, he mentioned he saw some timothy. For the most part it all looks to be finer grasses, nothing too course, clover and dandelions are the only plants with any leaves to speak of.

jon f mn · Oct 24, 2013

Won't work well to replant to hay, the current crop will just regrow and crowd out the new. Fertilizer will help but old hay is old hay and will not produce as good as a fresh crop. You could plow and plant soybeans with your grain drill and just hire someone to harvest. Just plant roundup ready so you get the grasses killed in a couple years. Or find a neighbor that would plant it for you on shares, I'm going to be doing that for a neighbor next year, he has about 75 acres of hay he wants to start rotating because it's getting tired and rough.

Mike in Mn. · Oct 24, 2013

I have read both of your posts, if you have clover and dandelions they will choke most of the grass out. To break the cycle plow and take advantage of that clover and plant corn or what I do is spray with 24-D and fertilize, that works to. Not saying it will work for you but I have sprayed in the fall to kill a thin field with a lot of clover and dandelions and hit it just right and got a good kill and overseeded in the spring, drilled in alfalfa shallow early when the ground it soft and ended up with a pretty good stand of mixed alfalfa and grass. Fertilizer works wonders!! And Mother Nature has to drop her grudge against us hay farmers!!!

60 acre hillside · Oct 25, 2013

I would not plant a grain crop if I needed the hay. If no fertilizer has been added and you have any stand at all I would recommend that you get a soil test and apply accordingly. Hay is a poor cash crop but is essential for livestock farming.

farmerwithmutt · Oct 25, 2013

Alfalfa can be toxic to new plants if not much alfalfa dont worry i try and plow in fall put in cover crop winter rye wheat etc then cut and bale that sell for beef hay and plow again and reseed to mix of alfalfa and grass dont forget lime and fertilizer

Mike (WA) · Oct 25, 2013

Get a soil test, fertilize accordingly, and see what happens. If you're feeding cattle, the native grasses will work fine- probably just needs some fertilizer.

gene bender · Oct 25, 2013

Where do you get the idea hay is a poor cash crop when 6-8 tons per A can bring150-200 per ton

gene bender · Oct 25, 2013

You can drill more seed where its thin with no trouble but a soil test sure would be helpful as you mite need lime

LAA · Oct 25, 2013

If you are feeding cattle and already have a stand of clover you are already more than halfway to a good mixed stand of hay that will provide a full ration for wintering beef cows. First thing to remember is hay crops remove 100% of the composition nutrients from the land and therefore require liming and fertilization to produce and out grow competing weeds and non desired grasses. Who ever told you that hay on hay was a no no was probably referring to Alfalfa following Alfalfa because grass on grass will never hurt your ground, as a matter of fact, grass is the best ground builder there is. If it was mine I would decide on a mixed stand, clover and orchard grass ought to make a fine mix for your area, and then get a soil test specifying the plants to be grown, lime and fertilze to that test and spray for weeds in the spring. If your ground has been continuously hayed for many years it may profit from ripping due to compaction.

Bruce from Can. · Oct 25, 2013

You could just fall plough this field, and summer fallow this field,then replant it to hay first week of August. Won't yield any crop next year but, the "rest" could be good for the land, and will be tough on weeds. Also give you a place to play with your tractors, and you can get your seed bed real smooth. Bruce

Bret4207 · Oct 25, 2013

I agree with LAA. Or for that matter, get some manure on it and disc it up good. That seems to bring the grass and clover back heavy at my place. Lime and fertilizer are probably you best bets.

Ken Macfarlane · Oct 25, 2013

I had a bad experience doing this. I fall plowed, disced in the spring as weeds were showing, then it was too wet to get back in until August. By then the field had a complete stand of weeds well established and 4 feet tall. What a mess it has been trying to deal with that.

showcrop · Oct 25, 2013

I agree with LAA. What you refer to as finer grasses, I expect is what we consider weeds around here. Proper pH and fertility will enable your good clover and grasses to choke the poor plants out in as little as two seasons, without the time and expense of tilling and seeding, not to mention all the weeds that you can get in the first year of a new seeding. Another possibility for increasing the health of your stand is wood-ash. It comes from wood fired electrical generating plants, and is very high pH and also high in potash, meaning that you need to purchase and apply N only. Since you have beef cattle you must be already equipped to spread manure, so you are equipped to spread wood ash.

Traditional Farmer · Oct 25, 2013

Just to plant more seed hire someone with a sod drill or rent one you'll get a better stand than plowing,disking etc with alot less expense.

paul · Oct 25, 2013

Alfalfa you must rotate to something else, adult plants put a toxic substance in the ground to its own seedlings that typically lasts 3 months of good growing weather.

Grass and clover, often best to rehabilitate what you have than to start over.

If you start over, it is far far better to rotate to something else, to kill off the per annual weeds, work in fertilizer and lime if needed, and break the weed and insect cycle.

I would not work up grass/clover mix and immediately replant the same, wastes a year of production to get what you already have.

Fertilize proper, including lime if needed, mow at proper times, and will have a like new field. Much quicker and less risk of failure than plowing up and starting from scratch.

Can spray to kill broadd leaves, add clover seed and preferred grass, and rough up the current stand of grass with a light disking, will bring back a good stand if you time it all right. If you need to kill weeds and want new grasses/ clover/ birds foot trefoil/ new alfalfa added to what is there.

Any time you try to seed any of these crops, there is a long time to get them established, and lots of risk to washouts, weeds, and drought failure.

Totally reworking what you have to establish what you have is wasted effort tho.

Fertility and timing for your climate are key no matter which way you go.

Mowing to kill weeds before they go to seed, allowing the old or new grasses to establish and crowd the weeds, is vital.

Paul

John B. · Oct 25, 2013

Before wasting too much money on fertilizer I would take soil samples and see what exactly your soil needs for the specific crop that's going in your fields. Hay needs a lot of potash.

Hay hay hay · Oct 25, 2013

I echo that.

1. See what type/variety of grass...some are better for hay than others.

2. Get a soil test..then apply lime and ferilizer as needed.. test available at Co. agent.

3. Spray to kill the broad leaf weeds.. fall is OK (then wait a while) before reseeding.

4. Late winter or early early spring (Feb or Mar) drill in Orchard grass and red clover seed with a TYE drill or a Pasture Pleaser...rent at Co. Agents office..$50/day.

5. Hope for spring rains...let it get established before you cut it.

Works for me. Same needs as yours except for horses.

Dave H (MI) · Oct 25, 2013

You have beef. If you looked out one year and saw a pasture with bony cattle, would you gun them all down and order new calves or would you find out what they needed and address it?

Real hay, by my definition so don't shoot me, is a thick stand of mixed grass, usually with a legume in small percentage. Unlike alfalfa, which has it's feet in two worlds (a row crop mowed each year for rich hay), grass hay is a long term perennial. My smallish field down the road has had the same grass hay on it for well over a decade.

We ask a lot of our hayfields and it would be foolish to think that you can take the volume off these fields that we do every year without giving something back. Have it tested and see what it needs. For me, weed control is not a chemical process because it could harm some component of the hay. Mowing the hay to stop the reproductive cycle of some weeds will work well. 3 years ago I had so much Queen Ann's Lace that the field looked frosted in late summer. Mowing it as it came to bud destroyed it in two years because it is biennial. Need to reseed your field? Let the grass stand an extra 1-2 weeks for Spring cutting. The dry seed heads will send seed all over you, the tractor, AND the field. I did this last year and, maybe it was a coincidence, but second cutting was 5 times as heavy this year than in prior years. You can also spray for the really bad weeds or you can over seed if you want a different grass on the field. Lots of ways to get it done. You can till to your hearts content if it makes you happy, but if you don't take on good management practices you will just end up where you started.

NEBeef · Oct 25, 2013

(quoted from post at 14:45:10 10/25/13) You have beef. If you looked out one year and saw a pasture with bony cattle, would you gun them all down and order new calves or would you find out what they needed and address it?

Real hay, by my definition so don't shoot me, is a thick stand of mixed grass, usually with a legume in small percentage. Unlike alfalfa, which has it's feet in two worlds (a row crop mowed each year for rich hay), grass hay is a long term perennial. My smallish field down the road has had the same grass hay on it for well over a decade.

We ask a lot of our hayfields and it would be foolish to think that you can take the volume off these fields that we do every year without giving something back. Have it tested and see what it needs. For me, weed control is not a chemical process because it could harm some component of the hay. Mowing the hay to stop the reproductive cycle of some weeds will work well. 3 years ago I had so much Queen Ann's Lace that the field looked frosted in late summer. Mowing it as it came to bud destroyed it in two years because it is biennial. Need to reseed your field? Let the grass stand an extra 1-2 weeks for Spring cutting. The dry seed heads will send seed all over you, the tractor, AND the field. I did this last year and, maybe it was a coincidence, but second cutting was 5 times as heavy this year than in prior years. You can also spray for the really bad weeds or you can over seed if you want a different grass on the field. Lots of ways to get it done. You can till to your hearts content if it makes you happy, but if you don't take on good management practices you will just end up where you started.

+1 to this.

Around here anyway, if you took hay off a field for three years without fertilizing/giving something back, yes, you'd have thinning grass as the weeds took over and the grasses starved. I've taken on fields in the past that have been abused in this manner, a couple years of proper fertilization does amazing things. It won't regenerate lost alfalfa, but it'll boost the desirable grasses to the point where they will choke out most weeds. You don't get something for nothing...

David G · Oct 25, 2013

I would over seed and fertilize if grass hay. You must kill alfalfa if planning to plant more. Get a soil sample to your fertilizer supplier and have them recommend.

I like to go a little heavier on P&K when trying to get roots established. Then more N when producing grass.

picassomcp · Oct 25, 2013

Thanks for your response Dave. You and multiple others here have made it clear that I need to work with what I've got. I think I will do soil samples to start then add the appropriate nutrients to the soil. I've never taken a soil sample before, does the fertilizer company typically do that, run tests then come back with a recommendation for fertilizer? or do I just bring in a bunch of dirt in a pail for testing? if bucket method, how deep do I dig for a sample?

I don't think there is a lot of weeds in these fields (some weeds, not alot) so I think what grasses are there would respond well.

Planting Hay on Hay

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