OT Toyota Frame recall

Last month I posted about recieving a recall for the frame on my 2004 tundra I had it inspected yesterday at the local Toyota dealer and yes I need a new frame.They will order the frame and call me when it is in it takes about 4 days on average to change. I am thinking about having them replace the shocks and timing belt and water pump at the same time to save on labor 140,000 miles on the truck. Any thoughts or expierance with this.

I really doubt that you will "save" anything on labor. The shop is not making much changing out the frame so they will charge normal flat rate for the "extra" repairs you have done.

Contrary to what many people think warranty work is just about always a LOSER for any dealership,car or equipment. The company only pays a flat labor rate that is usually lower than the actual time most shops can do the work in. The dealer is only compensated for the part at dealership cost. That mean nothing for the cost of handling the part. Parts department hate warranty items. The department makes nothing on them. If the part cost the dealer a $1 the company only pays a dollar. Forget any special freight like the customer needing it next day. Any loaner car or any thing like that is out of the dealership's pocket.

So check with the dealership but I bet that the repairs will be normal shop rate.

I agree.

I bought a new Ford p/u in 1988. That was about the year that Detroit....St. Louis I think for my truck, decided to go to water based paint (so the media said).

I was at work a couple of years later and overheard a conversation about Ford repainting vehicles at no cost to the owner.

I went to the local Ford dealer and got the paint adherence test: A piece of duct tape pressed onto the finish and when it was removed, if it contained paint chips/flecks you were a candidate for a new free paint job.

The service guy made out my service order and set me up for an appointment for a new paint job. He also asked me if I had anything I wanted repaired. I said that the sending unit on one of my fuel tanks quit working and a couple of other things. The sending unit repair required dropping the tank to access the unit.

I got a free rental car while they did the work. It took them a couple of weeks as apparently they worked on this kind of problem when there was nothing else in the shop.

What I got was my truck in 100 % mechanical condition with a paint job better than when new with a rental car all compliments of Ford.

Mark

I am with JD seller if anything you would be helping the dealer. He is not going to cut you any slack that he is already loosing money on anyway. He most likely would gouge you a little to help make up is warranty loss. I have heard horrow stories about these frame change outs. I would right up front ask the dealer how many of these he has performed. If they do not have experience I would be finding me another dealer.

Flembo,
There is not enough space to type all the things you need to be aware of on your frame swap. I"ll try to touch on a few. This SHOULD be a ZERO cost to you transaction.

The dealership will try to get you to pay for expendables, brake lines, fasteners, etc. All this is on their bill, not yours. That is part of them removing the body from the frame.
Now, if you brake lines and shocks are ready to go, it would be a good idea to change out, while the body is off the frame. BUT, labor should be minimal, you don"t pay book rate, as most of the disassembly to get to the lines would fall under the frame swap.

I have to disagree with JDSeller and JM on warranty being a losing proposition, at least in the automotive industry. Right now Toyota labor rates are anywhere from $100-150 hour, depending on region. Any warranty part they install they automatically make 15-20% on. For instance to change shocks under warranty, they would get $50 labor, and make around $20 on the shock (shock cost +20%).

If you go to the dealer to have non-warranty work done, there is a "cheaper" labor rate since you are paying out of your own pocket. I put cheaper in quotes since it is $88.98/hour, again regionally adjusted.

You also mentioned the timing belt and water pump. They will have the cab off the frame, with the engine sitting right in front of them. Do not pay the full labor time rate for that.

Dealerships are a business, and a business needs to make money or their doors shut. I don"t know the tractor dealer business well, but I do know the auto dealers and I can tell you there is not a poor dealer anywhere. Rich is probably an understatement. Its a cut-throat business and usually its the owner and the general manager that are making the money, the technicians get treated poor at most.

Rick

Ford did not pay for the rental car. The dealer eat that. Also any extras cost the dealer not Ford. You just had a good dealership.

I have been on the back side at both car and equipment dealers. The customer thinks that Ford/company is paying the dealership for the total cost. The dealer is making up a lot of the little things not the company. Those cost have to be covered from profits made else where.

Since we have computer record keeping dealers can now see the "true" cost of warranty. That is why many of them are charging for the "extras" that used to be free. Also customers are driving longer distances to buy their new car/truck. The profit margins are getting lower on the up front sale. So the dealer can not absorb the warranty cost anymore.

A good friend owns/runs a Ford dealership. HE told me every darn Ford 6.0 diesel cost him on average $2500. That is what the warranty did not cover on the repairs/problems that engine had. He quit selling them. He just told all the diesel customers that he could not get any diesel models. HE said he was better off never selling the lemon than losing money.

Rick Jr. I bet that you never have seen the actual company settlement with the dealership. I have seen the actually amounts that the companies pay the dealer. Also Toyota warranty labor rates are not $100-150/hour anywhere in the USA. Got a DIL that is the bookkeeper for a Toyota dealer. She says they are only getting $60-70 dollars an hour on the frame swaps. That is at a flat rate that is 20-30% low.

Also you are WRONG on the expendables being paid for. Toyota is providing the frame and new mounting hardware. Anything else is on the dealership or customer. READ THE DARN Dealership warranty reimbursement settlement for the repair. The DIL has shown me them before.

I would bet that your a tech or maybe a service manager and have not seen the actual reimbursement payments/settlement.

You know your dealer. If you can trust them do it.

Bought a new tundra is 07. Should have waited until the bugs were worked out of the new ones. Toyota has put a new dash, radio, clock assembly, water pump, idler pulley, two air pumps (at 2000 a piece), and a new bed on it. My dealer has gone the extra mile and I can trust them completely. They have gone to bat and had everything done whether it was warranty or not.

I would have traded it off long ago but I love that pickup. I would just get another like it. Haven't had a problem in lots of miles. Heck, it's the good pickup anyway - it will last another 15 years easily.

Actually I have seen many company settlements, and work with them on a daily basis for the last 20 years, all the way from Montreal to Mexico, including the entire US.

I don't mind disagreeing with you in a respectful way, that's what makes this board great. As far as labor rates, I did state "regionally adjusted".

No, I am not a tech or a service manager, not even close. It wouldn't be a good idea for me to copy/paste actual labor rates but they are fairly accessible. I do work with everyone from a tech. all the way to the owners.

Only time I ever saw a warranty/recall that was gravy was when I was with Ford around 1990.

Ford had a recall on front brake rotors on '88-'90 T-Birds and Cougars for cracking around the bolt holes. The kit came with two new, beefier rotors and since the replacement required an upgraded lug nut, the kit also contained 20 new lug nuts, enough for all four wheels.

Ford paid .9 for doing the recall. It was easy to do it in half that, plus while you had the car on the hoist with all four wheels off (the rear to replace the lug nuts), you could usually charge the customer another $15 to rotate the tires.

What's not to love? If Toyota keeps on replacing all the parts that SHOULD have lasted 20 to 30 years, that truck will never get old. Now all you gotta do is convince Toyota that the tires are defective from the factory and you'll never spend another dime except for fuel. 'Course you'll have use of the truck only about 50% of the time, 'cause it'll be in the shop the other 50%.

Thanks for the replies I will post back when the job is done.The service manager did say things like shocks they would replace with no labor charge he gave me a figure of $275 for the timing belt minus the water pump does that sound right.

My retired brother works several days a week, as
a curtesey van driver for a Toyota dealer. In
between runs he sit like a mouse in the corner,
and watches what goe"s on. He says that he is
shocked, by how customers are Ripped off. And,
by how many water pumps that they sell. Any car
with over 60 thousand miles is recommened a water
pump change..most go for it..a big profit item.

I have friends that work at various positions at Ford, Lincoln, Buick, Cadillac, Toyota, Mazda, and Mercedes dealerships. They would strongly disagree that dealers don't make money on warranty claims. They're pretty much guaranteed to make money on warranty work. Both parts and labor. So much so, that many dealers have abused the system to the point where the car companies are cracking down on some dealers.

I worked at a Ford dealership for a number of years, and for the same company's import dealerships as well. In the area where I live, near Louisville, KY, this dealer was the "flagship" for getting manufacturers to raise the warranty labor rates. They set their customer-pay labor rates at 3x the rate they paid their highest-paid tech in the shop. Then they petition the manufacturer [Ford] to raise their warranty labor rate...after doing a telephone "survey" of the other import dealers in town, who usually have a higher labor rate to begin with.

Ford usually gave them the warranty labor rate they asked for, and then other Ford dealers in town would get the same rate. So the dealership wasn't losing money on the warranty labor; with the low warranty flat-rate times, it's the TECH who loses money, not the dealership, on unattainable flat-rate times. And warranty parts are reimbursed at a competitive rate; it used to be cost + 25%, last I worked there it had gone to cost + 40%, which was nearly what suggested retail price was.

In general, about the ONLY thing different, to the dealership, from a warranty-vs.-customer-pay situation is that warranty doesn't pay sales tax or a "shop supplies" charge...although I understand some manufacturers do pay an "administrative fee," to cover the cost of filing the warranty claim [and to help pay the salary of the warranty administrator].

This has been MY experience in the biz...YOUR mileage may vary.

One thing I left out...the manufacturers don't pay inflated "matrix" prices for parts like the retail customers often unknowingly do.

Ran into that at a Honda dealer once. Since timing belt replacement was recommended at 60k, and the water pump had to come off to replace the timing belt, we were told to "suggest" a water pump replacement at the same time, since the customer wouldn't pay any additional labor for replacing it.

According to my son in law who is a mechanic at a dealers ship and gets along well with the owner GM is paying them the entire flat arte time. The hitch is they don't pay the shop rate. They only pay a 85% of that dealers rate. That was about the way all the car companies did it not too many years ago. Flat rate said 10 hours, they got 10 hours. But the companies set the hourly rate. On average in my area that ran from about 15% to 25% less than what the dealers charge normally. That was from about 15 years ago.

Rick

If it keeps any more time in the shop it should last for many years so what do you drive while its in the shop

JD Seller....normally love your stuff, but you couldn't be more wrong on some of your statements on this issue. It is a fact that every franchised auto and light truck dealer in the U.S. is paid a fixed markup percentage on EVERY part installed on a warranty job.
When I was last involved in the business, the payment rate to GM dealers was 30% markup on all parts used on warranty.
And by the way, with as powerful as franchised auto groups are with national groups like NADA or state groups like your Iowa Auto Dealers Assoc., dealers would never, ever sit still for not receiving compensation for warranty parts installed.

Well the dealer was in a small farming community about 10 miles as the crow flies from a very large metro area. He had a GM dealership right next to the Ford.

I did think all that "service" with no charge was strange.

Mark

If it were an American vehicle you would be telling how bad they were, poorly engineered, no quality, mAJOR FAILURES. Instead, you drink the Koolaid and want to buy another? Strange.

Spent too many of my years in GM dealers. Warranty is a break even or small profit at best. GM does allow a markup on parts, but the labor rate allowed is very low. A way to figure warranty labor rate is it is around two thirds of the posted customer pay rate. For instance, we had a customer rate of 75.00 an hour, our warranty rate was 47.50. The warranty rate is never higher than the customer rate, as some have posted. The factory is the best customer and gets the best rate.

The real loser is the mechanic doing the job. Recently, OE's have figured out they can cut the time allowed per job to short the dealer and in turn, the tech. This is why I quit the dealer scene 4 years ago, there was no sense in doing the work for free. Dealers are increasing staffing their service departments with Jiffy Lube techs to replace the knowledge that has left. Low hours paid per job is what leads to all the pushy upsells and wallet flushes.

I don't know much about the automotive world but I have been in tractor business for years. We do make 25% on warranty parts .The manufacturer does pay our shop rate but only for their flat rate schedule. In most cases its way less time that it really takes . Also we do not charge for pickup or delivery we eat that because we believe its not customers problem to pay to transport tractor that they didn't break so all and all we break even and customers are happy. I should also ad the pickup and delivery on our dime is only for customers that bought from us.

Yea the car dealers are getting so rich that just over 3,200 nation wide have closed in the last 3 three years. I am very close to the OWNERS of three large dealerships and they all tell me if the shop breaks even they are happy. TRUE warranty cost is a lot more than what the manufacture pays the dealership. But it is really not what this post was about and he may actually save money by having other repairs done while the truck is there but he needs to watch the dealer.

JM
Agree with you and that was my intent of the post, during the frame swap, if the OP needs other parts changed out he should be able to get it at a discounted rate.

I think the dealerships being forced to close had a lot to do with the OEMs figuring out where they had to cut costs during the 2007 Recession. OEMs do put forth a lot of money to maintain dealerships and keep them current to their standards. While the dealership owners also put a lot of money into that as well.

With vehicles sales almost back to the point where they were pre-2007, makes you wonder why more dealerships couldn"t be supported, like the 3200 or so that closed. Your remaining and mostly larger/mega dealers are moving more transactions.

Rick

I'd sit down with the service manager and try to negotiate
a lower labor rate on some repairs you want done.
Since usually half the labor is getting TO the part,
they might give you a lower rate since it already has to come off/out.

For now, I would crawl under it and look for all
the parts I want replaced, that are just unbolt and rebolt.
I would do these myself as soon as I got it home, as the most work is getting the old parts off/loose.
since they already did that once, it will be easy.

Been a long time since I worked at a dealership, but if I remember right,
recalls and warranties were different.
Warranty, the dealership might try to get the customer to pay for this or that,
But, a Recall was to be done as soon as possible at Zero cost to the buyer.