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NEW gas standards?????

J

JD Seller

Well-known Member
Filled up the car with gas yesterday. Local station that also runs delivery trucks had a letter on the counter for any customers. Basically it says that there are going to be "new" fuel blends at the pumps due to new rules.

Current blends at the pumps, cheapest to highest.

89 Octane 10% ethanol
87 octane zero ethanol
91 octane Premium zero ethanol

New blends:
87 octane 10% ethanol
89 octane 10% ethanol
91 premium zero ethanol

The problem is that I usually run the 87 in the car and larger small engines. 91 octane in the small two cycle engines (chainsaw, weed eater, etc.)

So to get away from the (junk) ethanol I would have to buy the 91 octane premium that is currently 40 cents higher per gallon. The old 87 octane was just 10 cents higher.

I am sick and tired of the tree huggers and the corn ethanol business TELLING me what I want to buy. If you want ethanol BUY all of it you can/want.

I personally dislike an inferior product that causes problems in the motors/engines that we are forced to use it in. I get to repair too many gas engines that have fuel issues caused by ethanol. My car gets much lower fuel mileage with the ethanol blended fuel is it. (28-30 no ethanol and 23-25 with ethanol) So how is that creating lower emissions when you have to burn more fuel to get the same work done???

Have any of the rest of you guys heard of this??? Is it state or Federal rules that have changed???

I guess I will just have to keep getting rid of more gas motors. I am not going to fool with junk/ethanol fuel issues anymore than I have too.
 
JD,
Don't think we are going to win the ethanol
battle. Only going to get worse 10% will become 15% and who knows where it will end.

My solution. I went with a 4 hp electric chain saw and a genny that has a regular carb.

I look at the problem as ethanol or the design of the 2 cycle carb. And there is nothing we are going to do about ethanol. EPA won't let it happen. So I got rid of my 2 cycles.

George
 
Wear a garlic around your neck.

Sounds like a lot of voodoo.

I would imagine there aren't many states selling unoxygenated fuels any longer.


I don't lose much sleep over it.

Does it really deserve that concern?

One leaves white powder and the other turns to varnish.


I can't even get a picture tube tv anymore and these hd flatscreen lcd communist plot give me headaches.
 
Please tell us what kind of repair problems you have seen or experienced. I really have not had bad experiences or repairs in tractors, cars, vans, pickup and chainsaw engines. Yes the shelf life is short and I have followed Stihl's recommendations of using no fuel over 30 days of age, not a real big deal or pain. Locally here in Michigan all gas is 10 % ethanol so I have no choice unless I bought Avgas 100 LL at the airport and it is over $ 6.00 per gallon, not very appealing. I can not tell if there is a great effect on milage, I suspect there is a little with the decreased BTU' in ethanol.
 
I'm not sure what all the panic is about.

I've been using 10% ethanol for upwards of 30 years in anything that has an internal combustion engine, and I can honestly say I've never had a problem that pointed to ethanol as the cause.
 
It's been that way in Wisconsin for years, sorry you'll have to catch up to and play by the same rules as your socialist neighbors, but that's the way the game is played. The nanny state grabs power and then expands it at every chance they get. Want another one to rant about? How about the new refrigerant, they changed our refrigerant because concerns about the "Hole in the ozone layer" causing "world wide global warming" (yes they were hoping we didn't remember). The new refrigerant requires higher compression to work, or to explain it another way more energy for the same cooling. Until we start forcing considerable change in our government (unlike my ancestors) by electing individual that represent US rather than big government unions, industry trusts and special interest groups we'll continue to be abused by our governments.

-The comment about my ancestors is based on the fact that in 1776 one signed a document declaring the land he lived on to be free from British rule and tyranny, another was a Fenian supporter advocating armed revolution against the British crown to free Scotland and Northern Ireland
 
(quoted from post at 17:53:21 09/07/13) I'm not sure what all the panic is about.

I've been using 10% ethanol for upwards of 30 years in anything that has an internal combustion engine, and I can honestly say I've never had a problem that pointed to ethanol as the cause.
Click to expand...
ell, you are just one lucky dude! With a lot of seldom run engines, it sits long periods, has afinity for moisture, then with the water, the ethanol/water mix seperates, rust tanks, lines, carbs, injector nozzles and since ethanol/water sinks to bottom, it is all the engine gets, and unless it just plain won't start, it runs like crap. I have fought this crap as long as it has been around. Don't have to be a scientist, just set a jar of it on the shop shelf and check it every month for a year....you can see it. I finally found a farm fuel supplier that only sells diesel & non-ethanol gas. As long as I use his fuel, I'm ok......after a lot of time/cost to clean up the mess caused by the e-crap.
 
in one of my old homelite powersaws i had gas in it for quite a while. went to use it and would not start. checking in the tank i found the rubber pickup hose just turned to mush. i blamed this on the new gas.
 
i never had no problem either with gas or diesel.
i never drain gas from chainsaw lawnmower or any small engine before winter,never had a problem not wanting to start come spring.
Same with diesel, some engines might sit 1/2 year or more, had one sitting as long as 10 years,..fired right up.
I seldom fill at a service station though, maybe farm fuel is better quality.
 
Magellan who supplies gas here in Iowa and other places announced that some time ago. No new Gov regs just their decision. Its been announced on WMT,WHO and others sometime ago.
 
JD, Here I in Texas we have NOT had regular Straight Gasoline of ANY variety for 3 or 4 yrs. I wish The Ethanol Companies had this crap shoved up their A$$. I Don't care if the Corn Farmers like it! It is not worth the problems this crap creates.
Crappy Fuel mileage, + - 3 MPG Reduction in fuel economy, You have to keep fuel treatment in ALL gas engine fuel tanks. This Crappy gas goes bad faster than it took the Titanic to go down! the Ethanol eat up all rubber fuel lines, Just a mess all the way around!
We can not Buy straight Gas at all! Some Federal Fuel law,,, Y'all can thank the Orian Samuelson, Iowa/Corn Belt Farmers and their Lobby for all this $hit! Welcome to the Socialist States of America!
Later,
John A.
 
About 15 years ago I took some evening classes on small engine repair. The instructor ran a local lawn and garden implement dealership with his dad and brother. I don't remember if that was before or after ethanol blended gas was mandatory here.

The instructor commented that the invention of the product "Stable" increased their business a lot. Guys stopped draining gas tanks before storing their small engines in the off-season. They just poured a few ounces of Stable in the tank and parked it. The next season many engines would not run right or would not start at all.

His business got to repair those machines or take them as trade-ins on new machines. His shop guys would clean-up the carburators, replace the gas with fresh gas and the machines would run fine again.

His recommendations to us for reliable small engines were:
drain the gas tank before storage;
change the oil on-time; and
don't over-speed the engine RPMs. That has worked well for me.
 
Not really seeing any problems with it around here either. I don't
run it in my chainsaw but only because our local 91 has none. Still
have problems with old chainsaw mix though.

Come to think of it, we rarely have trouble with old e10 gas in cars,
only lawnmowers/atv's. I've started cars with e10 that have sat for
a 2-3 years without trouble. Sometimes the gas will go bad in the
ATV's just over a winter. Not sure why.
 
I don't know what your peoples problem is with ethanol. Been using it here in Central Illinois for 30-35 years with no problems. Yes I burn it in everything I own.

Maybe you just need to add some Seafoam. Then everything would be OK.

Heck if that don't work, try some Marvel Mistery Oil.
 
I never sold any $7 corn. I feed all of my corn so the higher corn price that drives the higher soybean price just drives up all of my costs.

Plus ethanol is at the best an energy break even. It takes energy to produce ethanol. So when you add up the energy to grow the corn and then product the ethanol, compared to the energy available in the ethanol it is at best a break even. Until just recently it was a energy loser.

I say put regular gas on the market and ethanol blended gas. Let the consumer decide what they want to use.
 
No new government regulation.
What has happened is your loading racks are now getting 84 octane gasoline.

Before Magellan Midstream Partners; Iowa’s largest pipeline operator was shipping 87 and 91 to the loading racks. They are now switching over to 84 and 91 because 87 is getting harder to find. Most of the refineries have stopped making it.

Your supplier has chosen (maybe forced) to load (depending on what loading rack they are loading at) 84 with 10% ethanol rather than a 84/91 mix to make his 87 octane gasoline. Its a cost cutting measure because ethanol is cheaper than 91 on a octane bases.
Suppliers are forced to choose what blend they will sell because none can stock all grades of gasoline. They just do not have enough tanks. Since the majority of people shop price on 87 gas rather than pure gasoline guess what blend your supplier will choose.
 
I have enjoyed all your posts up until this one. I'm 50 years old and have ran ethanol laced fuels since it was introduced back in the 70's.

We had one station "Admiral" that sold regahol. It was regular leaded gas (remember that stuff?) blended with 10% ethanol. I used to put it in my Pinto all the time. It made that car run a lot better, and since I could advance the timing some. It got the same mileage as 100% gas. I put almost 300,000 miles on that car. It only died because it got a leaky radiator and I didn't quite make it home before roasting the engine.

In all my stuff, I've never had to change a fuel hose, fuel filter, or had any other trouble. Maybe in a Stihl 041 chainsaw. The fuel line went to pieces back in the late 80's. But I'm not sure, might have been old age or inferior material. Put new fuel line on it and it's still going. Never had the carb apart.

I now run E85 in a 2007 Chevy 1500 when I can.

In our non-flex fuel Taurus, I have been running 50% E85 and 50% regular gas. The mileage so far has dropped from 23.6 to 23.3. Not to bad.

Yes, you will get less mileage with ethanol since it has less BTU's but if the price is lower to offset that, what's the dif?

I also think it's real easy to blame anything that happens on the new thing.
 
Your change must be a state or regional change. Here in NY we have had 10% ethanol /gas mix mandatory since 2009. My Chevy Impala went from 29 mpg just before the change to 26-27mpg after. So I agree you do use more fuel , which would seem tocause more pollution. It also causes one to buy more gas. Here in NY there is ALOT of state tax and sales tax on gas , so think about it a minute and it all makes sense why NY state favors the ethanol blend gas.
After alot of complaints, mostly from boat snowmoble and motorcycle owners, now we can buy ethanol free high octane gas here, if you can find it. Of course its higher priced than 93 octane with ethanol.
 
Almost all stations here in NC have 10% ethanol 87, 89, or 93. One chain used to have 92. I don't think I've ever seen 91. A few stations advertise ethanol free gas in all grades and one chain sells ethanol free 93 "recreation gas" which they market toward 2 stroke marine and small engines.
 
I like burning ethenol better than buying crude oil from the middle east and having to send our armed forces to war, just to make sure the oil continues to flow from there. The sooner this country becomes energy independent, the better off we will be. I would rather support a US corn farmer than a raghead that you can't trust any further than you can throw him.
Loren, the Acg.
 
There has been a lot of discussion on the pros and cons of ethanol blends. It seems like in the north everyone seems to get along fine but here in the south there are problems with it. It may have something to do with heat combined with humidity. I personally haven't had much problems as long as I run it out or pour it out if it's going to set for a while. The biggest complaint I have is that I get at least 10% fewer MPG with 10% ethanol blend, At $3 gas I could afford to pay 30 cents a gallon more. For me it's a wash and feed prices are higher.
 
I bought a new Jeep Cherokee in 1986. Never ran anything in it but the ethanol blend. When it finally died in about 2002, it had 345,000 on it. So I am not convinced that the ethanol is all that bad in vehicles.

But that being said, I still burn "no alcohol" in all my small motors. And it is still very available here in MO.

Gene
 
Well said, JD.

Unfortunately, reasonable people have temporarily lost this one.

Eventually, sanity will return but it may be decades.

Dean
 
Something I give people to think about when they start blaming ethanol for fuel going bad. I ask, what is ethanol? That's right, corn alcohol. Whiskey in other words. Stop me if I am wrong, but don't folks pay more for Bourbon, whiskey, or Scotch based on how long it is aged? If ethanol goes bad in 30 days, how can it age in a barrel for years?

The stuff that makes fuel go bad is all the other crap in it. I have small engines set up to run on E85. The E85 I keep on hand stores longer than E10. Which leads me to believe it is the clean air additives that kill fuel.
 
I have been using only 87 octane non ethanol in my tractors and generators for the past 3 years because it doesn"t keep in some of them as well. In my vehicles I use whatever is handy. I think the issue is how well the gas cap seals up and how much moisture the ethanol attracts over time. It is not that I don"t like ethanol, gas just keeps better for me over the long term without it.
 
You don"t believe the sticker on the pump????

<img src = "http://i167.photobucket.com/albums/u125/27Grainfield/Stuff/Ethanol_zps0f8bfff4.jpg">

"Enriched"???? Wonder how they define that?
 
Jeep computer says 3 miles per gal less on 10% blend. I replaced the rubber fuel lines on the JD mower this spring because the old ones were cracked and I had the tin off. Three days later it would not run, the new Gates All fuel line had turned to mush on the inside, filled the carb bowl and both gas tanks with black specs of rubber hose. I have a plastic gas tank from a JD 445 mower that has a 1/4 inch of black sticky crap in the bottom(it sat outside for sale for 30days) (you can put you arm in this tank)the next thing I am going to try to clean it with is acid. After talking with the transport drivers, here you have no idea who is selling pure gas and who is selling blend on any specific day.
 
All this BS falls under the Renewable Fuels Act put in place by our federal goverment. This was put in place to force the general public to use ethanol. Used to have to have a label on the gas pump if you had ethanol blend. The corn grows association lobbyied and got the label removed hoping this would help them. A candy bar wrapper has to tell you whats in it, but not your gas pump. So the EPA under the Renewable Fuels Act has a mechansim that keeps track of ethanol fuels sold in the market. For each gallon of ethanol the refiners buy a uniquely identifiable Renewable Identification number is generated. At the end of the year each refiner has to possess the assigned numbers of RINs that must be deposited with the EPA. The problem is individual refiners may not really have as much need for ethanol as mandated for purchase. So there is another way out. If you sell a lot of ethanol you are going to have more RINS then the EPA mandated for you, so you can sell them. So the refiner does not have to buy the physical commodity but simply buy the RINS from you at the price you set. So the refiners got there heads together and said lets drop the octane from 87 down to 84 and put ethanol in everything. The refiners use to buy there ethanol from the terminals to add to there gasoline. Now they are going to buy it from the ethanol plants themselves and put it in the terminals. They may be buying or building there own ethanol plants soon. Every gallon of gasoline leaving the terminal will have ethanol blend in it.
 
(quoted from post at 19:03:43 09/07/13) JD, Here I in Texas we have NOT had regular Straight Gasoline of ANY variety for 3 or 4 yrs. I wish The Ethanol Companies had this crap shoved up their A$$. I Don't care if the Corn Farmers like it! It is not worth the problems this crap creates.
Crappy Fuel mileage, + - 3 MPG Reduction in fuel economy, You have to keep fuel treatment in ALL gas engine fuel tanks. This Crappy gas goes bad faster than it took the Titanic to go down! the Ethanol eat up all rubber fuel lines, Just a mess all the way around!
We can not Buy straight Gas at all! Some Federal Fuel law,,, Y'all can thank the Orian Samuelson, Iowa/Corn Belt Farmers and their Lobby for all this $hit! Welcome to the Socialist States of America!
Later,
John A.
Click to expand...
ot true John. Just about any lake in Texas has a boat arena where non-ethanol os available. Further, most farm fuel suppliers here in Texas handle non-ethanol gasoline. Facts only please.
 
found this old picture for corn fuel
a127939.jpg
 
So someone tell me something, I always thought ethanol was close to 100% octane, and if that is correct what grade of gas do they have to blend to get 87 octane? May be wrong I don't know that much about that kind of stuff, just thinking everyone blaming the ethanol industry when we need to be questioning what kind of cr p the refineries are trying to sell us blended with ethanol to bring up the octane rating. Hasn't big oil taken enough from this country trying to keep us believing there just getting by and keeping us scared so we keep the price of oil over inflated
 
If I remember correct ethanol is 115 octane, propane is 120, diesel is like 30-40, and gas what ever they do to it, by refining it or additives.

Ethanol is part of meeting the requirement to oxygenate the gas, so it burns cleaner. There are other ways but this is the easiest.
 
3% less mileage? Do the math......how much less did you pay per gallon for the 10% ethanol fuel? I"ve had flex fuel since about "06, and when E85 is 40 cents/gallon under our regular E10....I"m money ahead. Sometimes E85 is 90 cents under!
 
90% 84 octane gas and 10% ethanol makes 87

60% 84 octane gas and 30% 91 octane gas with 10% ethanol makes 89
OR
90% 87 octane gas and 10% ethanol makes 89

60% 91 octane gas and 30% 84 octane gas with 10% ethanol makes 91
OR
35% 91 octane gas and 55% 87 gas with 10% ethanol makes 91

90% 91 octane gas and 10% ethanol makes 93

We were getting 87 and 91 but they are phasing that out and we are getting 84 and 91 as blend stocks now.
Use to be there was no 87 at a station that had ethanol. They sold it as 87 but it was really 89 octane. Hence the switch to a 84 blend stock now that most if not all stations have gone to ethanol.
 
Most people simply don"t do the math, especially in a long-term, accurate and controlled study. Now, here, some "claim" 10% reduction in fuel economy by going from regular gas to E10, which we"ve had for decades. No, I don"t mean methanol (gasohol- a totally different product, which DID cause problems).

I"ve had flex fuel vehicles since "04, mileage drops around 11%, but if the E85 is 40 cents under E10, I"m $ ahead. I"ve seen even a 90 cent margin. How much do I save at that level? And, it"s US generated fuel!!!!!

The argument about energy input to create vs energy output has been debunked by real information. (Pimental study to criticize ethanol production ASSUMED all corn used for ethanol was irrigated! Just another way to skew the study, cuz he and partner were employees of Shell Oil). Look it up- I read the whole thing.....even determined how much energy was expended to mine the ore to make the machines that grew the corn to make the ethanol! Biased? But it"s easier to bellyache about the unknown, or mandated, cuz someone is always out to get them.
 
I know this subject has been beat to death here but I have been using 91 octane non alcohol premium for the last three years and it has cured ALL fuel related problems around here. We still run quite a few old gas tractors plus the mowers, saws, atvs etc. and two pulling tractors. It has eliminated the green death in all the carbs. Don't use any additives and don't drain anything, no vapor locking on hot days etc. Every thing starts and runs and pulls and lugs so nice it's unreal. So mow our local Co-op merged with another this summer and they don't carry it any more, it used to be 30 cents a gallon more than the 10% stuff. I have located a different Co-0p that will deliver but they get 50 cents more, which I am going to pay, it's worth it, and I need fuel Monday. I was in a gas station this summer, I think it was in South Dakota, there was a mixer pump that had E-10, 20, 30, 40, 50, and 85, just push the desired button.
 
JDS- you know how much I respect you, your knowledge, advice, and opinions. All I ask is that you read my response to "onefarmer". I understand your concern about mandates to get a new industry started. (I relate to Mom saying....eat your vegetables....they"re good for you!)

I"m also cognizant of the importance of depending on us, and US, rather than those in the sandbox, for providing the fuel energy we need as the World provider. I think you had some in the sandbox, just as I did, til May and Aug, like so many others..dau and sil.

Interesting how eth shows up on this board every so often......some naysayers that want to blame every engine problem on it, some who"ve never had a problem. One in particular always does. Yeah, Bingo. But just for "gits and shiggles"? think about Henry Ford"s idea...............he designed his first cars to run on that crazy fuel, ethanol....but "that surplus thing, "gasoline", got in the way. Seemed some folks just had no use for that by-product!

JDS- Please remember that I always look for your posts.....you truly are an immense asset to this board. A naysayer showed up recently wondering how you could be so knowledgeable about so many subjects....I"ve always found you more than credible. On this, we"ll disagree, but with respect.
 
John, thanks for posting actual facts. Of course, most people don't want to be bothered with facts because they get in the way of a good story. After reading the original post, I just skipped over all the nonsense posts and looked for what you had to say.
 
Same here....I use the cheapest gas available and have never had any problems with my lawn mower,weed eater,chain saw,etc..
 
It"s for the children" or "If it saves one life ,it"s worth it" lol The gov hasn"t shoved those slogans down our throats over bio fuels yet ,,lol
 
just to throw out an observation , letting fuel sit in a tank for long periods 3-4 wks. is the only time my units have problems kj
 
I"ve run 87 octane, 10% ethanol in cars, trucks,
tractors, lawnmowers, (Briggs/Tecumseh/Kohler)
2 cycle string trimmers, and chain saws, and
never had any problems whatsoever. You guys that
complain about alcohol in the gas are just a bunch
of supersticious whiners!
 
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