Propane or Natural Gas? OT

The gas company finally decided to run a line by my house. They want 4,000 bucks to connect and 550 to run a line to a meter on my house. They are telling me that for every thousand I spend on propane I could get the same out of nat. gas for about 700 bucks. I would also have to replace my hot water heater which is 23 years old anyway.
I have big house, 4 bedrooms, three baths and just my wife and I. I'm not sure if I will live in this house for much over 10 more years which is about how long it will take to get my natural gas hook-up expense money back. I'm just trying to decide which way to go, pro's and con's. I have untill the end of the month to decide which is my propane pre-buy deadline.

I am quite likely in the minority here, but given the choices you are facing, I would stay with propane. I don't know how you buy yours, but I buy mine by the gallon with a 100 gallon minimum. My only gas usage is my furnace, so in the summer I don't have a gas bill. My friends in town and out on the road where natural gas is available have much larger bills than mine with similar setups. It might not stay the same but for now it's a no brainer for me.

They keep saying natural gas is cheaper, but not in my experience.

First thing to consider, the numbers regarding pay back etc. that are quoted reflect todays natural gas prices which at a several year low. Depending on the area of the country you live in prices may stay low for several years but gas may go up 100% tommorow as well, propane will also go up if natural goes up but usually not as much. It would be a cold day in you know where before I would pay a company 4 grand for the privilege of buying their product, the 550 for the meter and line to connect to the house I could see but not the 4 G's.

That's alot of money to lay out ! I'd have stay propane for lack of any money to buy the nat. gas line.

You should be able to just change an orfice in your hot water heater to go from propane to nat. gas if you do go that way.

The connection fees seem outrageous. I'd offer them $1,000 for the connection - take it or leave it! I've heard of some guys who waited a year or two after the lines were run by their property, then the gas company came to them with a lower offer for a connection.

If you are sure that you won't live there more than 10 years, it might be best to just keep doing what you have been doing.

10 years ago Exel Energy,(formerly "Northern
States Power") ran a natural gas line along my
county road, on the way to another town. I am 250
feet off the road. The hook up charge was $70 !
there was no other charge!
I have a 4 bedroom, 2 bathroom house. my average
bill in the summer is $12 for water heater and
Kitchen range. Winter bill, on budget billing, is
$76..and we often have 2 to 3 weeks of -30 temps
and many more of Zero or lower here in Wisconsin.

You say you think you may only be there for 10 years. So first thing is talk to a realator about prospects of selling either way. The natrual gas bay be a deal breaker or maker in the real estate market. Then in areas after the gas lines come through after a few years the goverment outlaws the use of lp tanks and if that happens and you are not signed up and hooked up to the natrual gas lines you may be setting that your only option is to go to total electric. The thing to think about is not the cost difference but if you want to hook up later if you will be allowed to or a future purchaser of your property. And also check if you are going to be allowed to keep your tank, that may be in the agreament with the goverment and the gas company that all tanks have to be removerd within a certain length of time, could be 1 year or 5 years. And if you do not hook up and that has to be done now you may not be allowed to hook up later after your tank has to be removed due to goverment regulations.

If the difference in gas cost is $300 bucks a year, then it will take you more than 10 years to just break even. I would stay with the propane.

"They want 4,000 bucks to connect and 550 to run a line to a meter on my house"

YEAH RIGHT.....Tell them "I'm sorry, but its my policy to NOT pay such an amount for the "privelige" of paying you money each month from here to eternity with no guarantee of future prices"

They have to be kidding right?? $4,000 SUREEEEEEEEEEEE

Do they already have a utility easement??? Or they want you to sign that also??

Now, if you were going to live there 30 years it may be one thing, but FOUR THOUSAND so you can pay them more each month NO WAY I WOULD

BUT ITS YOUR MONEY AND YOUR CHOICE NONE OF OURS

John T

A natural gas connection will add some value to your property, so you will get some of your investment back when you do sell it. It may take more than ten years to recover the investment just from the savings alone, but over 50+ years it will be a gain for the property. In the past propane prices have spiked much higher than NG.

I would look into the what it will it cost for someone else to make the connection in the future. Adding the connection now should add at least 75% of that future cost to your resale value, especially if most of your neighbors are
connecting.

Does the NG gas company or your community offer any low cost loans to make the connection?

The burners in your water heater, furnace and stove should be convertable to NG by changing the meterting orifices. The service call will cost more than the parts and labor to change them, so change them all at one time if you can.

I believe that natural gas is better than propane)(propane is an oil derivative). When let loose, propane is heavier than air and goes to the low spots . Natural gas is lighter than air and goes to the high spots. Natural gas burns cleaner. Itseem to me that up to the meter is their responibility, There might be some negotiaion room for the 4000 dollar line.

I would definitely hook up to natural gas, at least you wouldn't have to monitor the level every few weeks. It would definitely up the value of your property. I've seen propane tank regulators freeze up in the winter and all the flames go out inside the house. Some of the gas delivery drivers cut ruts in your lawn etc.

Yes $4000 is on the steep side as I'm concerned. I would think it would be cheaper to put in while they're running the main line past your place.

Did you talk to the construction crew guys or their office? Gas lines are a lot different than water lines.

the ng companies spend endless amount of dollars to convince us ng is the energy of the future. maybe its time to examine that. first, the bulk of all electrical energy is generated by fossil fuels(coal), next is nuclear followed by hydro then oil/gas fired turbines. last on the list and close to negligible is solar and wind power. fossil fired generation is first because of its ability to generate large amounts of electricity per unit, nuclear can generate even larger amounts per unit while hydro typically are small amount per unit compared to fossil or nuclear. oil/gas are small units and solar/wind has already stated. currently the epa and the current administration is doing EVERYTHING possible to shutdown existing fossil fired plants and making the cost of new facilities prohibitive. there has not been a NEW nuclear plant started in the last 20 years and none are on schedule to be built, plus, all existing nuclear plants are reaching expected life. hydro has limited production and no new sites available for new generating facilities. so with wind/solar being negligible that leaves natural gas to be used for the bulk generation of electricity in the US. so, with no coal fired plants, limited generation from existing nuclear and hydro plants, how much natural gas will be allocated for LOW COST domestic use? I know, not now, but what will 10 to 15 years bring? cow chips anybody!

It is worth that in convenience and will raise value of property.

when the gas line was run down our road the hook up was $65, to run the 600 feet to our house was $500. I am glad we switched from propane to ng. We pay $.51 per therm. $4000 to hook up is silly.

We don't know if his propane tank will still be allowed in 5 years though, if it is outlawed in that time then what will he be able to do. And the small towns that have recently gotten gas service have outlawed the tanks as safty factors so if not hooked up and tank is outlaweed then what does he do?

That seems high, what state are you in? What company? Just curious, I know they have costs, but if they get you to connect, they also now have another customer they get to charge monthly fees to on top of the gas you use...

DoubleR,
I'm probably in the minority here, but I just converted from Propane to NG on a second house I bought. The propane cost me over $1200 this past winter to keep it 55 deg when it was vacant. Now, my daughter lives there and with an electric H2O heater energy costs were getting pretty high. Didn't want to go another winter like that.

I contacted the Gas company but the main stopped down the road quite a ways. They surveyed the neighbors downstream from me and the cost would have been about $5k apiece to pull the main and hook up if we had 7 or 8 sign up. None wanted to, so I bore the entire cost to extend the main (over $ 7k). Now if one of them signs up later on, they get the benefit of me paying the brunt of the cost. C'est la vie. Since I bought this house out of foreclosure and paid over $100k less than it last sold for, I'm just factoring the NG conversion into the cost basis when I price/resell the house.

BTW, on a gas furnace, in addition to changing the orifices (about $10 worth of parts and 15 minutes labor) the manifold pressure needs to be adjusted for NG. Also about 15 minutes of labor time using a manometer. My stove just needed an orifice change (both sizes built-in, just needed to flip it) and a pilot light adjustment.

I've had both I've had NG for the last 45 years, All appliances are gas. It cost me $750.00 to get a gas line installed to my Kohler generator and that's with an inspection. The plumber had to make two service calls since they had put air pressure on the line for 24 hours. They used Wardflex to the generator, but the town inspector made them to use black pipe from the outside wall to the generator. My last water heater lasted 19 years and Sears gave me a new heater one of their best. I still had the receipt when I bought the old heater. It was their Survivor heater. The lady told me that if this water heater fails I'll get another free heater as long as I keep the old receipt. Hal

well i have had natural gas for over 20 years after switching from propane--the utility picked up all the cost to my meter which included a 1200 ft run down the street with no other hookups. Maybe the cost will go down on hookup in 5 years.
My town has not passed any laws to eliminate propane
and I'm surprised that any town has.
By far the vast majority of gas explosions have been natural gas mains and services to structures.

That don't seam too bad. The best thing I did was connect to gas about 15 years ago. It wasen't very expensive at the time.I don't know why everything is so darn expensive now. It is going to cost me 15,000 for a 3/4 in. water meter, or a 1 in. will be around 20,000, and 12,000 to hook it into the main 15 ft. away. This is for a old house my daughter lives in. When I do a lot split the house needs needs it's own meter.Stan

When they put the line by our house I think they hooked us up for almost nothing. If they want to sell you NG they should hook you up pretty cheap. NG is a very good buy now but you never know, but I think it will always be the most BTU's per $.

That sounds like exactly the same deal as is being offered by Consumer's Energy in Brandon Twp, MI. Coincidence or are you in the Brandon project?

I don't know about that particular project, but I know in some cases if you pay for the line past your house and someone else taps in later, you get a cut of the proceeds until the main is paid for.

Consider this:

1. It's pretty much guaranteed that natural gas will be cheaper than propane, since propane is extracted from natural gas. Their prices tend to rise and fall together.

2. You'll never have to worry about running out of natural gas. It takes a very major catastrophe to knock out gas lines.

3. The value of your home will increase if you make the switch.

4. You'll get rid of the white pig. That in itself is worth the expense of conversion.

5. Natural gas is lighter than propane, hence it's much less of an explosion hazard.

I appreciate the responses and opinions.
I live in Mi. and appartently Consummers Power decided to expand their Nat. Gas operation. I have had a line about 500 feet down the road since I built my house in 1990. Now they finally decided to extend the line. The cost for me to have done that in 1990 was crazy then. The 4 grand is what I'm hesitant about paying now too. Of corse they said I could just pay 45 dollars a month for 120 months. (I wish I could get that kind of return on some of my investments) They said it would cost more if I wait and switch over in a couple of years. Not to mention they sent me a bill for the 550 connect, which is due Sept. first. They plan on doing the work the end of Oct. What the heck! Your billing me for something you might do a couple of months??? I'm leaning towards calling their bluff and waiting a couple of years. My propane company has always been good to me, I buy my farm diesel and bulk oil from them too.

(quoted from post at 12:44:19 08/19/13) I appreciate the responses and opinions.
I live in Mi. and appartently Consummers Power decided to expand their Nat. Gas operation. I have had a line about 500 feet down the road since I built my house in 1990. Now they finally decided to extend the line. The cost for me to have done that in 1990 was crazy then. The 4 grand is what I'm hesitant about paying now too. Of corse they said I could just pay 45 dollars a month for 120 months. (I wish I could get that kind of return on some of my investments) They said it would cost more if I wait and switch over in a couple of years. Not to mention they sent me a bill for the 550 connect, which is due Sept. first. They plan on doing the work the end of Oct. What the heck! Your billing me for something you might do a couple of months??? I'm leaning towards calling their bluff and waiting a couple of years. My propane company has always been good to me, I buy my farm diesel and bulk oil from them too.

Click to expand...

The gas company in my area of Michigan is Semco Energy. They offered a monthly payment, but the interest rate was over 10%, not a good deal. I also had to wait a few months for construction but I just had to put down the deposit ($200) until just before they actually hook up the meter. At that point you either pony up the full amount or go on the payment plan.

Natural gas is being installed in the village I live in.

The hookup is free (to the house) if you have at least one appliance to hook up.

I don't know if you plan on ever selling your house but I figure the gas hookup just added $20,000 or so to the resale of my house.

Brad

Resale value is a thing I considered. I plan on talking to an appraiser before my final decision is made.

About a 10-15 years ago when the gas company came back our road they not only paid for the right of way but offered to hook my parents house up for free, and it was 900 feet from the road. The house was built with electric baseboard heat, and Mom didn't want a gas stove, so they turned it down.

I think that was Ohio Valley Gas, out of Connersville, IN.

At present prices propane is about three times more expensive than natural gas

How far is it from the new gas line to the existing gas piping on the outside of your house? Is the $4550 the price for the gas company to do all the installation work, including excavation, backfilling, any sand needed to protect the piping, the new gas meter, and any inspections. If your house is some distance from the gas line, that price doesn"t sound too bad. You will also need to replace or have work done on all the appliances now using propane, as it takes much more volume of natural gas to produce a given amount of heat than it does with propane.

About 20 years ago, when the gas company ran a high pressure natural gas line down our road, some neighbors and I inquired about being able to hook up to it. After some discussion, the gas company agreed to make a number of "taps" to the high pressure line, which required them to install special regulators in each yard that was going to use the gas. I was going to build a new house and altered my plans to take advantage of the availability of natural gas. Otherwise it would have been all electric, with wood heat backup. I suggested that the gas company put in a normal street pressure line in the same ditch while they had it open. They said they couldn"t, since that was not in the original contract. But a few years later, they dug up the gravel road again and installed a normal street pressure line. This allowed them to get rid of all the small special regulators and to close off the numerous taps in the high pressure line.

We really like having natural gas here. Since we installed the furnace, gas water heater and gas dryer, I have not had to have anything done to any of them. They have been completely reliable (hope this doesn"t jinx me!!!). The price of natural gas has gone up over the years, but so have almost all other prices. I still believe that natural gas is the least expensive way to heat a house. And using natural gas is SO EASY and so clean, as compared to heating with wood.

From what I have read, this country has enormous stores of natural gas. It stands to reason that if there is a lot of something available, that product should remain relatively inexpensive.

I absolutely would hook up to the natural gas line. However I would also try to negotiate a better deal, which might be possible. Good luck!

Pretty much normal, when the gas company comes in that becomes part of the agreement for them to come that all tanks will be removed. And it is also from the tanks setting on the property line and too close to a neighbors building if fire would hit the building.

Hate to dissagree with you but propane is a by product of oil refining. Back in the day it was ultra cheap because of it's inconvenience to handle and over abundance of it with costly storage to the refineries.

Maniac, according to the DoE, about half of propane is produced from natural gas versus crude oil. Regardless, their prices tend to move in tandem because they're more or less interchangeable energy sources. Obviously there are regional differences, but in general propane is always going to be more expensive than NG (where gas is available) because of transportation costs.
DoE on propane

It appears that they are trying to get you to pay for their construction of the main, If you wait long enough after the main is installed (years, how many I do not know, it may be 5) then your only cost would be to run the service line, which is much less than $4,000.00. If they are extending the line, someone in that area, likely the end of the line has requested it. When I bought my place there was a propane tank, and Natural gas running in front of my place, I was lucky, the line was in long enough that I did not get hit with the cost of the main install, someone else paid it. I think it was the Public School District, as that's where it ends. My install and hook up cost was around $400.00. At best, I would try to negotiate a better price, $2,500 plus the other $550 would be my max.

Also, in reality, it does not take alot to cause a Natural Gas outage. Most of the Natural gas currently used in Michigan, comes in via Huge Pipelines from the Gulf of Mexico, Hurricanes have frequently cut our supplies to the state, and as long as your supplier has their own storage to use in these cases, you could get cold. Or if a Gate Station has a problem or happens to be attacked, you are out of luck, Propane is more expensive, but once it's in your tank, you have gas....

I've lived in Michigan all my life and have never, ever heard of a NG disruption to customers due to any weather issue. Now, that doesn't mean there haven't been interruptions on the wholesale side but people (myself included) buy generators as protection for a utility service (electric) that happens relatively frequently due to weather events. Never, ever worried about losing my NG supply.