Stray voltage at livestock fountain

Can someone tell me how to test for this with a multimeter? I led my horse to drink and it was very obvious that he could feel the tingle, I could not. I have read that Animals can feel 1/10th the voltage that humans's can. I suspect a bad ground and am going to shut off and start checking connections but I am not sure how to Check afterwards.

Try it barefooted, see if you can feel it.

You just need to check for voltage between the waterer and earth ground. If you have a ground stake close use it for the one side of your meter. If not I have driven a pin into the ground to check for stray voltage. I have also just made a mud puddle where I could reach it with one end of my meter for the earth ground.

Remember that your horse is standing barefoot on the ground and is touching the waterer with his mouth that is wet. He is a good conductor of electric. That is why they are sensitive to it.

DO not touch it barefoot like the smart butt below stated!!! If it is a very high voltage you could kill yourself. It does not take much voltage in your upper body to stop your heart or cause an irregular heart beat.

Had an person killed with a bad ground on a welder. He was working on a manure spreader while his brother was welding on the other side. The ground cable end was bad. It lost contact right as the guy was holding on to the spreader. Killed him right then.

Thanks JD. Should I use the AC voltage setting as if I were checking a wall plug?

That is nothing to mess with, will get someone killed. I would suspect a heater or pump is leaking.

Always been this way, seasonal or new problem?
Often comes down to neutral current being carried on the ground system. This is a problem as contrary to what some jackleg electricians claim . Ground and neutral is not the same thing says engineers, electrical inspectors, utility linemen etc.
Is the electrical service overhead triplex?
Is there a heater on this water trough ?
It"s possible this tingle voltage could even be coming from the utility side of the electrical service.
As you suspect, good grounding is everything.
Check all service grounds for loose or broken connections.
A ground rod driven at the water trough is a start.
Metal pipe work out to the water trough?

Had that happen with a brand new hog waterer. Thermostat was leaking voltage. Had a heck of a time finding it. The waterer was grounded to two copper ground rods driven in deep and the hogs were still flinching. At first i thought there was backfeeding through the neutral from somewhere else on the farm. Took awhile to get it through my head to try it with the thermostat disconnected. Jim

AC, yes. You may want to start on a higher AC setting, then work your way to lowest.

If all else fails with grounding rods, you may want to use some kind of wood platform covered with rubber for horse to stand on. Rubber roofing material may work.

Google 'stray voltage' and you'll probably find some information on it. Basically you take a multimeter, set it on the AC voltage setting and test from the water trough directly to the ground where you're standing. Technically I believe you're supposed to use a small resistor in series with the test leads to simulate some load. If you find some of the online articles it may give you the value of that resistor... Regardless if you use a resistor... test from the tank to earth and what you see is what you got.

You can also try doing your tests with your main entrance shut off and see if the tingle voltage isn't coming in on the neutral. That's a pretty common thing because of bad grounds on the utility end... and be damned if they'll ever admit that ~they~ have a problem. You may end up getting a tingle voltage filter if you find it's coming in on the neutral. The other option you have is to construct a steel reinforced concrete pad that has a grid of steel tied to the safety ground system. The idea is to create a voltage plane where the tank and the pad that the animals are standing on are all at the same voltage potential... thus they won't get a shock... except mabey when they step onto the pad.

Rod

Okay heres the real deal as best I recall, its been years since I retired as an AC Power Distribution Electrical Design Engineer remember, so no warrantty on the latest Codes.

1) The what you call "tingle" sounds like its stray voltage thats between the metallic water frame and mother earth.

2) You measure that voltage across the two points where it exists i.e. mother earth and the metal fame WELL DUHHHHHHHHH

3) If its the stray voltage caused by what I suspect, its of very low energy, so any reading a meter might register depends on the type of meter and its impedance and depending on how wet the earth is and how deep you insert a voltage probe ITS NO TELLING WHAT YOU MAY OR MAY NOT READ (still dont mean Bossy cant feel it).

4) NOTE In normal circumstances when you feed a remote outbuilding from a sub panel, you run seperate Neutral GrounDED Conductors and Equipment GroundING Conductors and keep them seperate and isolated in the panel. HOWEVER as best I recall there are grounding method exceptions in the NEC FOR BUILDINGS USED TO HOUSE LIVESTOCK, but Im rusty on the specifics CHECK WITH A LOCAL PROFESSIONAL LICENSED ELECTRICIAN OR ELECTRICAL ENGINEER OR LOCAL INSPECTION AUTHORITY OR UTILITY PROVIDERS FOR THOSE EXCEPTIONS NOTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT BASED ON WHATS SAID HERE (lay or professional and not me) AS THEIR WORD IS WHAT COUNTS NONEEEEEEE OF OURS.

4) The reasossn for the above are livestock are known to stand barefooted in wet soil LOL and due the the capacitance and mutual inductance effects of the long runs of Neutral GrounDED Conductors in paralell with Equipment GroundING Conductors, the Equipment Ground can develop a potential higher them mother earth out at the remote building THEREFORE WHEN BOSSY IS STANDING DEEP IN WET EARTH AND HER NOSE TOUCHES THE WATERER she feels a tingle.

5) If you effectively bring the waterers case potential to that of the earth nearby, the stray voltage difference can be dissipated.

6) You mentioned checking connections???? I would start with all the Neutral bonds and splices and junctions,,,,,,,,,,,,I would insure good to mother earth GroundING Electrode(s) are present at the outbuilding, such may consist of "made electrodes" such as copper rods driven into the earth and other electrodes such as conductive gas and water pipes and buildings structural steel and foundation stell etc etc

YOU NEED GOOD TO MOTHER EARTH GROUNDING ELECTRODES (driven 8 or 10 ft copper rod or rods) AT THE OUTBUILDING.......INSURE THE WATERERS CAFE FRAME IS WELL BONDED TO THE EQUIPMENT GROUNDING CONDUCTOR..........INSURE THE EQUIPMENT GROUNDING CONDUCOR IS GOOD BACK TO THE PANEL

Thats enough for now, for life safety especially with outdoor electrical appliances use NEC grounding and bonding methods is my best professional, albeit rusty, opinion and check with trained professional electricians and engineers and utility providers if in doubt BEWARE OF LAY NON TRAINED BILLY BOB METHODS WHERE LIFE SAFETY IS CONCERNED. However, its your farm and building and money and risk so do it however you please.........

Best wishes n God Bless, keep safe, n dont let Old Bossy feel a tingle cuz she will never drink from there again CHECK THE AGRICULTURAL OUTBUILDING GROUNDING AND BONDING NEC EXCEPTIONS for the best method to reduce stray voltage...CHECK ALL EQUIPMENT GROUNDS for integrity and low impedance,,,,My "best guess" remains the equipment Ground out at the building is at a potential HIGHER then mother earth at the waterer OR ELSE the Equipment Ground is broken or has a bad loose corroded connection...... ID CHECK AND DEAL WITH ANY BAD GROUNDING CONNECTIONS FIRST......Then as/if necessary make Neutral and Equipment Grounds in accordance with NEC livestock building exceptions if theres still a potential voltage difference from earth to the waterer

Ol John T Long retired EE so no warranty on those NEC exceptions, but I do know they are for this purpose so livestock dont get shocked !!!!

YES you measure for AC Voltage same as if a wall plug (at appropriate range) HOWEVER read my post above,,,,,,,,That "stray voltage" may be from a low energy source whereby what you may measure depends on the meter,,,,,,,its impedance,,,,,,,its type,,,,,,,,,,,,how deep and how wet where the earth probe is located BUT REGARDLESS THAT DONT MEAN OLD BOSSY CANT STILL FEEL IT !!!!!!!!!!!!!

John T

(quoted from post at 14:13:53 06/24/13) YES you measure for AC Voltage same as if a wall plug (at appropriate range) HOWEVER read my post above,,,,,,,,That "stray voltage" may be from a low energy source whereby what you may measure depends on the meter,,,,,,,its impedance,,,,,,,its type,,,,,,,,,,,,how deep and how wet where the earth probe is located BUT REGARDLESS THAT DONT MEAN OLD BOSSY CANT STILL FEEL IT !!!!!!!!!!!!!

John T

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John,

Here locally we had a dairy farmer who had stray voltage which actually over time caused his animals to lose motor control of their limbs, They worked for a long period of time with the utility company , grounding each pole along the roads to no avail. Eventually they ( the utility company ) installed a "isolation transformer" which seemed to solve the problem.

In discussion with a employee of the utility company I was told they had a similar problem at a barn where there was no electrical service installed whatsoever. Take that for what it's worth, just passin on what I was told, maybe you could postulate as to how an "isolation transformer" would help?

If a farmer had that problem around here, he would call the utility co. and they would come check it out very quickly. The problem gets worse when thieves steel the ground wires off the utility poles.

An isolation transformer can help because unlike the normal utility transformer, it has no connection to mother earth (via a GroundING Electrode to the Neutral grounDED Conductor). In theory you can use an isolation transformer and stand in a bathtub and touch either end of the transformers isolated secondary AND RECEIVE NO SHOCK WHATSOEVER. Thats becasue no part of it has any tie to earth or the bathtub or its water etc. I was at a trade show once where they had an isolation transformer and a big tub of water and the sales people were doing basically what I described. The volatge across the ends of an isolation transformer are with respect to each other ONLY while in a utility transformer its center is tied to mother earth so if youre standing on earth and touch one end you can wake up dead!!!!!!!!!

Got it???

John T

Years ago I read an article where the high voltage transission lines induced stray voltage for a dairy farmer.

Years ago I personally ran in to stray voltages. All power was off. There was one voltage difference between the water line coming out of the earth and a grounded water heater. I measured one amp flowing when the copper water line was connected to a grounded water heater. Let me say it again, ALL POWER WAS OFF IN THE HOUSE. Measured one volt and one amp AC.

All you can do is try everything and let us know what you find.

Electricity does weird things. The weirdest thing I had happen lately is the dust collector for my planer is made of all plastic. I used a 4 inch aluminum flex pipe to connect the planer to the dust collector. When wood particles go flying through the aluminum flex pipe a static charge is generated that will make you wish you hadn't gotten close. Had to connect a grounding wire to the metal pipe. Both ends of the pipe are connected to plastic, ungrounded.

So, why does wood and aluminum make a static generator? Wonder if one end of the pipe is Positive and the other is negative Or all positive or all negative? Perhaps I should put an ammeter on the grounding wire and find out.
George

We had that problem a good 15-20 years ago. REA was saying it was our vacuum pump or feeding equipment. The meter they brought out and tied to the water pipes and pipeline proved them wrong after we ran fresh grounds to everything and started feeding and sanitizing the pipeline an hour early.

They put some sort of an isolator on the neutral at the meter.

Cutting the bond between the utility's high voltage side neutral and the customer's low voltage side. Will eliminate many tingle voltage cases. Not a task ffor anybody except a lineman in an insulated bucket.
As previously mentioned it make the utilities look bad if thier neutral is the problem.

The better the insulator, the greater the static charge the material can develop.

Our first place had high-voltage lines running across it, and the fences were all on cedar posts. Always getting shocked by induced current in the summer. I got to where I carried a grounding wire in my pocket, to ground out the fence before I touched it. Alligator clip on one end, spike on the other.

Gotta remember to push the spike in the ground first, before clipping to the fence. Don't ask me how I know. . .

Airplanes are grounded before they fuel up.

We had a metal gate, when all the way open came in contact with the electric fence. Dog took a whiz on gate, guess what happened?

Makes them look bad.... Which is why they deny, deny, deny. Been down that road before. It's kinda funny... but really just very aggravating when someone tries to play you for a fool and treat you like an idiot by playing slight of hand with his meter just to show you there's nothing there.

Rod

Update, I turned off the electric to the fountain heater. Fixed water for all animals in alternate supplies. Have not gotten to check all other connections yet, am recovering from a cow kick to the chin resulting in 7 staples (stitches) in the top of my head! Wife said I looked like a rag doll when I hit the ground. I was attempting to head the cow in the other direction when she jumped and kicked me with her back foot, wife said the cow's feet went up and I went too! I am very thankful that stitches and time are all that are needed to fix me. As soon as I am allowed to go to the barn by myself I am going to pursue the elictrical issue. There are four grounding connections that need to be checked for integrity. also the fountain in question really needs to be replaced.

Sorry that you were injured but glad to hear the prognosis is good. Careful with the head injuries. Each injury compounds on top of any previous head injury(s).

Water heater elements can energize all the water in a system.Found it often in barns.Plastic pipes make it worse.A neon test light will find hot items.No meter needed.

Yeow, did your head meet an immovable object when you went upward?