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The low sulfur fuels are supposed to have additives added to replace the "lost" lubricity, but your paranoid conspiracy types won't believe that for a second.
What I don't get is, if you think the greedy oil company is lying to you about replacing the lost lubricity, how can you think that the greedy additive company is telling the truth about what their product does?
What I don't get is, if you think the greedy oil company is lying to you about replacing the lost lubricity, how can you think that the greedy additive company is telling the truth about what their product does?
Welding man
Well-known Member
- Location
- West Virginia
I see both sides to that argument,but why do all the injector pump rebuild shops tell you to use an addative, the more pumps that tear up and the more they rebuild the more money they make. Who do you believe?
The inline pumps that are oil lubricated won't have any problems,older Cases, Farmalls,etc. The rotary pumps are the ones that can use alittle help in the lubricity department... personally, I use a quart of atf per tankfull. Stanadyne additive,or Lucas both add lubricity. I would prefer to err on the side of caution, a couple dollars worth of atf is cheap insurance compared to a $700-$1000 pump rebuild.
Case Nutty 1660
Well-known Member
Every Tank Full, Standyne or Howes
There were tests done a few years ago that compared all kinds of different additives including atf, engine oil, etc. I forget the source, but I know Ford had links to it in our service publications, maybe someone will remember it but soy oil was by far the winner in the lubricity test. If I can find those tests I will post the link .
Mike Aylward
Well-known Member
I was told by the owner of a diesel pump repair shop to NOT use Power Service at all, let alone as a lubricity improver because it is predominately alcohol which makes the lubricity problem WORSE, not better. Mike
Will Herring
Well-known Member
Same go for replacing the lack of lead in gasoline?
Bob Bancroft
Well-known Member
- Location
- Aurora NY
Snooping around the internet some time ago I found a study, probably the same one you reference. So I tried some "bio" diesel. (Got the 99.9% stuff from a dealer and mixed it myself). I had no problems with filters, but I wouldn't dare run it in cold weather. Would use more if I could find it.
Interesting how this is brought up and how many people
run additives in every tank. I was just told my view of
needing to run Stanadyne additive in GM 6.5 engines was
"horse pucky", even though GM and Stanadyne recommend
it. If I had a rotary pump diesel, it would get ATF, Marvel,
or Stanadyne.
run additives in every tank. I was just told my view of
needing to run Stanadyne additive in GM 6.5 engines was
"horse pucky", even though GM and Stanadyne recommend
it. If I had a rotary pump diesel, it would get ATF, Marvel,
or Stanadyne.
For a while I used Howes religiously. Then I'd forget to have it on hand when I was filling the tank... Now I just don't bother. I've come to the conclusion that all of this hoopla about additives is just that... a bunch of crap.
If you want to do your fuel pumps a favor, particularly the rotary pumps... keep them free of water. Drain the separators on the bottom of the filters. Change the filters when you know you had a slug of water... That's what you need to be doing. The fuel has had a lube package added to it by refiner. If they didn't and it trashed your pump, and done so on a widespread basis... they'd be liable. I'm quite sure they add what needs to be added.
Probably 99% of all pump problems are water related anyway.
Rod
If you want to do your fuel pumps a favor, particularly the rotary pumps... keep them free of water. Drain the separators on the bottom of the filters. Change the filters when you know you had a slug of water... That's what you need to be doing. The fuel has had a lube package added to it by refiner. If they didn't and it trashed your pump, and done so on a widespread basis... they'd be liable. I'm quite sure they add what needs to be added.
Probably 99% of all pump problems are water related anyway.
Rod
Mike Aylward
Well-known Member
He told me the soy diesel is very good for lubricity but the lower sulfur content allows the anerobic bacteria to grow much more than when the sulfur content was higher. He said a biocide is a good plan for any fuel kept over 30 days. He said the money saved in buying bulk fuel too far ahead would be more than obliterated by problems caused by the algae. Mike
They will survive very well, thank you. The distributor type pumps theoretically should be most at risk, and do just fine.
Most inline pumps are derivatives of German Bosch stuff and they were designed "back in the day" to deal with and pump a LOT nastier stuff than today's diesel fuel.
Most inline pumps are derivatives of German Bosch stuff and they were designed "back in the day" to deal with and pump a LOT nastier stuff than today's diesel fuel.
Being inthe repair industry I'll say it like this, for what it's worth. Since the Ultra-low sulpher fuel came onto the market I've had more calls from customers with fuel related issues than I ever had in the past.
Personally I've got a series 50 Detroit in my servce truck. With it each injector is it's own individual, electronically controlled injection pump, and injector, all rolled into one. With the low sulpher fuel I was getting 5-6 MPG normal and started getting 8-9 MPG when I began running additive. When the ultra-low hit my mileage dropped back down 5-6 MPG, with additive. Too, the fuel light never came on, but now, with the ULSD, and the new biodiesel mixes being forced down our throats, my fuel light comes on telling me there is moisture, etc in my fuel at least once a day. In other words if I'm not running additive to handle the loss of lubricity caused by the moisture in the fuel, I am doing nothing but asking for problems. To my eyes, problems are way more expensive than a $9 bottle of additive for every 250 gallons. Not to mention I figure I'm still gaining at least one MPG extra with additive and each extra mile is another $1.50 in my pocket to cover truck expenses, so at the end of the year it all adds up.
Tell me I am crazy, tell me I am stupid for not believing the hype from the governmental agencies that want/need us to believe they know better than us, but to that way of thinking I say this. You can say what you want, but my personal experiences tell me that what they want us all to believe, and what I KNOW, what I SEE with my own eyes, are two different things entirely. The way I see it the can say what they want to about the results of their tests, and in controlled experiments they can paint the pretty picture they want is to see, but under real world conditions there is a completely different picture being painted for those of us that are out there working with their 'results' every day.
But that's just my .02 for what it's worth....
Personally I've got a series 50 Detroit in my servce truck. With it each injector is it's own individual, electronically controlled injection pump, and injector, all rolled into one. With the low sulpher fuel I was getting 5-6 MPG normal and started getting 8-9 MPG when I began running additive. When the ultra-low hit my mileage dropped back down 5-6 MPG, with additive. Too, the fuel light never came on, but now, with the ULSD, and the new biodiesel mixes being forced down our throats, my fuel light comes on telling me there is moisture, etc in my fuel at least once a day. In other words if I'm not running additive to handle the loss of lubricity caused by the moisture in the fuel, I am doing nothing but asking for problems. To my eyes, problems are way more expensive than a $9 bottle of additive for every 250 gallons. Not to mention I figure I'm still gaining at least one MPG extra with additive and each extra mile is another $1.50 in my pocket to cover truck expenses, so at the end of the year it all adds up.
Tell me I am crazy, tell me I am stupid for not believing the hype from the governmental agencies that want/need us to believe they know better than us, but to that way of thinking I say this. You can say what you want, but my personal experiences tell me that what they want us all to believe, and what I KNOW, what I SEE with my own eyes, are two different things entirely. The way I see it the can say what they want to about the results of their tests, and in controlled experiments they can paint the pretty picture they want is to see, but under real world conditions there is a completely different picture being painted for those of us that are out there working with their 'results' every day.
But that's just my .02 for what it's worth....
Texasmark1
Well-known Member
All you boo birds out there that knock additives, that's ok. Your
stuff, your money, your time.
Personally I have proven to myself time and time again in diesel
and gas, 2 and 4 cycle engines, the effectiveness of the proper
additives and use them in everything.
Results is my stuff doesn't have bad fuel coming out of storage,
doesn't smoke, starts right up, runs like a top, and I DON'T HAVE
TO PUT ONE WRENCH TO ONE BOLT.
My stuff, my money, my time, my peace of mind.
My 2c,
Mark
stuff, your money, your time.
Personally I have proven to myself time and time again in diesel
and gas, 2 and 4 cycle engines, the effectiveness of the proper
additives and use them in everything.
Results is my stuff doesn't have bad fuel coming out of storage,
doesn't smoke, starts right up, runs like a top, and I DON'T HAVE
TO PUT ONE WRENCH TO ONE BOLT.
My stuff, my money, my time, my peace of mind.
My 2c,
Mark
buickanddeere
Well-known Member
Care to explain how adding a pint or two of snake oil to a tank of fuel boosts flywheel output by 127% ?
Given than 1/3 of the fuel actually becomes usable power. That jug of magic additive added 181% more thermal energy to the fuel.
The extra mileage must have came from burning the methane off the BS.
Given than 1/3 of the fuel actually becomes usable power. That jug of magic additive added 181% more thermal energy to the fuel.
The extra mileage must have came from burning the methane off the BS.
Buick and Dej, you guys speak my language. facts and test data, not "piece of mind". In my racing days, we would make our own octane booster for gasoline, usually with Xylene....For 4 bucks/gallon, not 8 bucks/pint.
The marketing hype is just hard to handle.....That people continue to get sucked in, day after day. "Double your HP today". As an engineer, the numbers have to work for me. btu/lb, efficiency, etc.
Dej, do you have any recommendations for a fuel additive on the cheap or should a guy just save his "additive bucks" to put towards repairs?
The marketing hype is just hard to handle.....That people continue to get sucked in, day after day. "Double your HP today". As an engineer, the numbers have to work for me. btu/lb, efficiency, etc.
Dej, do you have any recommendations for a fuel additive on the cheap or should a guy just save his "additive bucks" to put towards repairs?
The big issue with the low sulfur fuel was that sulfur is and always was an anti corrosion additive. When they removed the sulfur there was a brief time when some corrosive fuel got out there. That has been replaced now by additives in the fuel. That is done at the refinery and you really don't need anything.
We have been working with an additive made by AmberTechnologies called M99 and I am seeing some tremendous results from it. It can be used in the engine oil or in the fuel. The treat rate is about 1 oz per 1 qt. in the engine oil and 1 oz per gallon in the fuel.Great stuff!
Mark... I can say the same thing, except I don't use additives. I've never removed one pump from anything around here of my own for any reason. In all the years and all the hours we've only had one injector go bad and that was on a fairly new engine at the time. Less than 1000 hours.
Of the problems I've seen on other peoples stuff... water is always the root of it.
Rod
Of the problems I've seen on other peoples stuff... water is always the root of it.
Rod
I have 12 diesels in tractors and trucks,i have had no fuel related issues in many years and I don't use additives, i hardly ever change a fuel filter either.
In the summer we use a bio blend and that has not caused a single problem yet either.
And some of my GM 6.5 ltr td trucks have well over 400 km on the electronic injection pump that are notorious for failing.
Maybe it is because I fill up 99% of the time at the farm bulk tank(always spotlessly clean fuel) and hardly ever fill up at a fuel service stations where they supposedly have a tendency to dunk waste oil in the bulk tanks.
In the summer we use a bio blend and that has not caused a single problem yet either.
And some of my GM 6.5 ltr td trucks have well over 400 km on the electronic injection pump that are notorious for failing.
Maybe it is because I fill up 99% of the time at the farm bulk tank(always spotlessly clean fuel) and hardly ever fill up at a fuel service stations where they supposedly have a tendency to dunk waste oil in the bulk tanks.
I made my decision on whether or not to run additives in fuel by observation in my area. I work for a local implement dealer/truck shop. When they took the sulfur out of the diesel the pump shop here in town had a flood of business from older farm tractors , mostly rotary pumps In the trucks we saw a lot of injector failures. Since this took place now we have people that religiously use additive and others who don"t .Its your own choice as said in a previous post . The main think I have observed is there may be a lubricant in fuels (gas and diesel) but there is no excess, may be just enough to say it is in the fuel. In my gas tractors I add something just so they run decent, ATF or some type of additive with a stabilizer. The quality of gas today is very P#%& poor. If you don"t believe it see how many matches it takes to light it. In my diesels I try to run additive every tank , sometimes I forget and they don"t seem to run as good. I"m not paranoid about this I just know what works for me. With this being said I can say I have had very few fuel issues.
JJ.
JJ.
Texasmark1
Well-known Member
I do pay close attention to quality of my fuel both in supply and
storage. I won't go into details as no one cares, but as I said, I have
resurrected dead and dying machines with just additives. So if it
resurrects them, then why not keep them resurrected.
Mark
storage. I won't go into details as no one cares, but as I said, I have
resurrected dead and dying machines with just additives. So if it
resurrects them, then why not keep them resurrected.
Mark
T in NE
Well-known Member
- Location
- Cambridge, Nebraska
Like I said, all I know is what I have seen in my own vehicle as far as actual mileage, not to mention the problems I have seen with customers that do and do not run additive in their machines.
As far as my situation, I know there are going to be variables due to time spent in traffic idleing, highway miles, stop-and-go city miles, etc, etc, and that, and I know all of that will have an effect on the fuel usage. That said, I have to do quarterly fuel tax calculations on my truck, and have had to do them since it was purchased about 12 years ago. That gives me around 6 years of use running the old LSD, both with and without additive, and another 6 of running it with the ULSD, which I did for a short time without additive just to see how things went. Were I to pull out 12 years worth of quartely returns I could show you where my milage increased with the additive in the LSD, and where it dropped back off again when the ULSD hit the market in every station and I was forced to start running it.
If you think the numbers I gave so far are out of line let me throw this one at you. At one point years back I put on so many highway miles that the quarterly average then was just shy of 10 MPG. It's amazing what having an automatic transmission with a double overdrive can do for mileage when you can run 65 to 70 MPH with the engine only turning 1600 RPM. Believe me when I say, I keep a real close eye on my fuel mileage and the cost of the fuel. When your self employeed and even one MPG extra ((on the 80 gallons my truck holds)) equals another $120 in my pocket per fillup, at $1.50 per mile heck yeah I pay attention. I don't know about you, but if a $12 bottle of 'snake oil' will make me my $12 back, and then some, and help increase the life of $1200 plus worth of electronic injectors then I'll gladly shell out that $12 every couple of fill ups.
As far as my situation, I know there are going to be variables due to time spent in traffic idleing, highway miles, stop-and-go city miles, etc, etc, and that, and I know all of that will have an effect on the fuel usage. That said, I have to do quarterly fuel tax calculations on my truck, and have had to do them since it was purchased about 12 years ago. That gives me around 6 years of use running the old LSD, both with and without additive, and another 6 of running it with the ULSD, which I did for a short time without additive just to see how things went. Were I to pull out 12 years worth of quartely returns I could show you where my milage increased with the additive in the LSD, and where it dropped back off again when the ULSD hit the market in every station and I was forced to start running it.
If you think the numbers I gave so far are out of line let me throw this one at you. At one point years back I put on so many highway miles that the quarterly average then was just shy of 10 MPG. It's amazing what having an automatic transmission with a double overdrive can do for mileage when you can run 65 to 70 MPH with the engine only turning 1600 RPM. Believe me when I say, I keep a real close eye on my fuel mileage and the cost of the fuel. When your self employeed and even one MPG extra ((on the 80 gallons my truck holds)) equals another $120 in my pocket per fillup, at $1.50 per mile heck yeah I pay attention. I don't know about you, but if a $12 bottle of 'snake oil' will make me my $12 back, and then some, and help increase the life of $1200 plus worth of electronic injectors then I'll gladly shell out that $12 every couple of fill ups.
NC, it sounds like you have done the math and logistics. I am in the machining business and some frown at a $200 endmill but if it works and makes more per hr, the logistics work out.
It is a fair bet that there are a LONG list of additives that can increase mileage. Whether it is really worth it if you are not a paid trucker is a question mark though.
Engines in the USA are tuned (forced via EPA) for least emissions, NOT max efficiency. There are 3 ways to tune an IC engine, max efficiency, max power, least emissions. The USA bean counters just never consulted with the right engineers to understand that when you tune an engine for least emission, you reduce efficiency thus you STILL burn more of it.
Gasoline engines are capable of 50-100mpg with todays technologies but the EPA is only concerned if you can wrap your lips around the tail pipe. Just by tuning for efficiency, we will get cleaner engines. The price of fuel is driving thee whole shift right now.
It is a fair bet that there are a LONG list of additives that can increase mileage. Whether it is really worth it if you are not a paid trucker is a question mark though.
Engines in the USA are tuned (forced via EPA) for least emissions, NOT max efficiency. There are 3 ways to tune an IC engine, max efficiency, max power, least emissions. The USA bean counters just never consulted with the right engineers to understand that when you tune an engine for least emission, you reduce efficiency thus you STILL burn more of it.
Gasoline engines are capable of 50-100mpg with todays technologies but the EPA is only concerned if you can wrap your lips around the tail pipe. Just by tuning for efficiency, we will get cleaner engines. The price of fuel is driving thee whole shift right now.
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