OT --School me on water softeners

Something I should probably know something about, but don't.

The softener is at least 10 years old, was here when I bought the place, and is the first softener I've ever owned.

Last 6 months or so the water has been salty after a refresh, just very briefly first thing in the morning. Once the wife and kids get up (two to three showers later) its fine. A month or so ago I noticed water in the salt pellet tank after a refresh. Pretty sure it was never there before, but I never looked at it when it was working OK and we normally keep it topped off with salt (so the water could be real high in there and I'd just see salt pellets when I look in)

We lost power today, so the timer got messed up and it refreshed this evening. Very salty water at the spigots. I looked and the salt tank is full of water (not very tasty looking water either). It's also a little low on salt, I was letting it get lower so I could inspect the level, and forgot about it till and let it get too low.

I had asked the wife to dig out the book/ operators manual/ brochure that came with it new (the folks we bought the house from left us all of that stuff--good folks) but she's asleep right now and I can't find it.

I siphoned about half the water out of the salt tank (the tank you put the pellets in) before thinking that might not be a good idea. I googled some stuff, but since I don't really know how it's supposed to work I'm not having much luck. It's an "ecowater systems", but I can't tell who made it from what I can see.

Any help on generic "hows this thing sposed to work" would be appreciated, as well as trouble shooting tips. I've helped several friends carry new ones into their basements (not neighbors, people on city or rural water -- I'm on a well). Is this something that most people just replace, or are there basic trouble shooting tips? I'm guessing a valve is plugged up or a pump isn't working, but don't know where to start looking.

Thanks,

Bob

The salt tank is also known as a brine tank. It is supposed to have water in it so the water can absorb the salt. When the softener recharges, it uses the salt water to remove the minerals from the rosin in the other tank. Think of the salt as the fuel to make the softener work. When the rosin is free of minerals I believe it is 're-ionized' so it can capture more minerals from the water that passes through it, and the cycle repeats itself. Soft water should not really be salty. Eco water is a brand of softener and not a cheap one. Normally, your drinking water aT THE KITCHEN TAP is not softened water as minerals in water make the water taste better. That is about all I know about them.

We have a softener that is about 7 years old. The bottom 4-6 inches of salt in the brine tank is always wet when it gets that low, but not any more water than maybe about 3-4 gallons. i think it is something like a venturi that uses water to get the brine out of the tank and into the softener. Maybe check the line that runs down into the brine tank, if it had a crack it might suck air instead of pulling enough water back out. Not sure what could be causing the salty water, first guess would be an internal leak or something in the valve unit, or else a problem with the media in the softener tank.

A couple of other thoughts- most? softeners have a manual bypass valve on the inlet/outlet connection, make sure it is not partially pushed out of the normal position. You could also try to make sure there is no restriction in the supply or drain lines. Lack of flow might cause it to not have enough suction to pump out the brine tank or not properly flush the resin tank

You should have a little water in the tank but not full by any means.also your water should not taste salty at the tap. You need to get someone from the dealer out to look at it.there are valves in it that get dirty and don't work right.we used to have a culligan softener that did the same thing.

Here is a short article on how they work.

"Water softeners operate on a simple principle: Calcium and magnesium ions in the water switch places with more desirable ions, usually sodium. The exchange eliminates both of the problems of hard water because sodium doesn't precipitate out in pipes or react badly with soap. The amount of sodium this process adds to your water is quite small -- less than 12.5 milligrams per 8-ounce (237-milliliter) glass, well below the standard set by the Food and Drug Administration for "very low sodium" [sources: Shep, U.S. Food and Drug Administration]. If you have health concerns, discuss them with your doctor, or consider either using a different kind of softener or only softening wash water.

The ion replacement takes place within a tank full of small polystyrene beads, also known as resin or zeolite. The negatively charged beads are bonded to positively charged sodium ions. As the water flows past the beads, the sodium ions swap places with the calcium and magnesium ions, which carry a stronger positive charge.

So why do you load up water softeners with salt if the plastic beads do all the work? Over several cycles, calcium and magnesium replace all of the sodium in the beads, after which the unit can no longer soften water. To fix this problem, the softener enters a regeneration cycle during which it soaks the beads in a strong solution of water and salt, or sodium chloride. The sheer amount of sodium in the brine solution causes the calcium and magnesium ions in the beads to give way, and the beads are recharged with sodium. After regeneration, the water softener flushes the remaining brine, plus all of the calcium and magnesium, through a drainpipe. Regeneration creates a lot of salty water -- around 25 gallons (95 liters)."

So this is how your softener works. Now the problem. It would seem that your softener is not flushing the tank correctly after regeneration. This can be caused by several things.

1) The drain line could be plugged. Remember the flushed water is full of salt at the first so the drain line could just be scaled up on the inside.

2) The supply line to the softener have a restriction in it. So that the flush cycle does not run enough water through the system when it flushes.

3) The controller malfunctioning and not flushing the brine water out of the ion beads. Make your softener cycle with the drain line off. See how much water it is using to flush with. Catch the water if you want so you can tell how much it is flushing. The bad news is that if the controller is acting up it is usually just about the same cost to just place the system.


Now there are several types systems. The two most common ones are single or double tank ones.

The single tank softener is more than likely what you currently have. These are set to cycle based on time not water usage. The installer usually test your water and then guess about how much you are using. He then sets when it regenerates. This is usually at night when water usage is low.

The two tank systems usually regenerate based on the gallons of water you use. They can be regenerating the one tank while you still are using treated water from the other tank. These systems usually are more efficient but cost much more. They use less salt because they do not regenerate until they need to based on water usage not time. The Kinetico system are this type. Another nice thing about this type system is that they do not need electric power. They use a metering valve control that uses the water flow/pressure to operate the softener.

As far as there being water in the salt/brine tank. Mine always has water in it. You may not notice it if the salt level is high but if it is half or 1/3 full then you will see the water. It usually is not pretty looking water either. Remember it is salt water so it is not going to be clear. Your brine tank water level being higher could just be the drain line just being restricted.

You should have a separate faucet plumbed on the kitchen sink for drinking water. This is usually unsoftened water. The minerals usually make the water taste better. Also it takes very little salt to make water taste terrible.

I usually do not get much over 8-10 years out of a softener. So yours could just need some repair but more than likely it is shot. Time for a new one.
full article. How does a water softener work?

An On-Demand water softener is probably more trouble free than one with a timer. On-Demand softeners can be set to regenerate at regular intervals if you have iron in the water. If you do not have iron in the water, it can be set to re-generate only by the amount of water used.

We had a Waterboss softener at our previous house; it was still working good when we sold the house 15 years later, so I installed a new Waterboss in our new house. It only uses 15 gallons to regenerate.

Check the hardness of your water and also how much iron is in the water. Then estimate how much water the family uses and select a water softener with the capacity and features that you need.

Water softeners do need a certain level of water in the bottom of the brine tank to clean the beads in the tank during regeneration, but your's is letting too much water into the brine tank. Check ALL the hoses and valves, possibly a sticking valve that needs to be cleaned lubricated with vaseline.

Ecowater softeners are top of the line sold through dealers. So you should have dealer support. I have owned two of them over thirty five years.
You are getting to much water in the brine tank, should only be about six inches. I had that problem once and do not recall what the fix was.

if it's that old i'd just replace it, i have a water boss from tractor supply, it was 300.00 when i bought it 12 years ago and if it acts up i'll just buy another, easy to get that much in repairs and still have a 10 year old unit..

A lot of softners rely on a venturi in the head which as water flows through the unit during a certain cycle of the regeneration process it sucks the brinewater up through a tube stuck into the brine tank. If this venturi gets plugged, then more water stays in the tank than should. This venturi being plugged is probably the most common service call on softners.One big advantage of the Marlo brand with the Erie head is that water flows both ways through the venturi which effectively self cleans the venturi.

I used to sell and rent water softeners so I learned a little about them. The first step in the regen is filling the brine tank. Then it slowly siphons the "brine" through the media tank, stripping the hardness out and down the drain. There should always be 3-4 inches of water left in the tank, but nowhere near 1/3 full in between regens. Almost all softeners despite having a timer regenerate after a number of gallons have gone through. This is determined by a "waterwheel" which is behind/below the timer. The timer is there to kick in to delay the regen until during the night. A separate line to the kitchen sink is rare because it would take a new dedicated run of pipe and would be the most expensive part of the install. The control on yours is not working properly. I would expect that it is in the valve that controls the water flow paths. A tech is not going to try to fix it, he will replace the whole control head. I would call a local independent as opposed to one of the big companies. The local companies are started by the "cream of the crop" from the big companies so they know more and are usually more sensitive to building a satisfied customer base.

It is a two tank system, and claims to cycle based on amount of water used. The hose running from the salt/bring tank to the smaller tank is flattened, like maybe it's clogged at the salt end and the other is trying to suck through the clog?

The drain line people are talking about, is this from the second tank (I guess the one with the beads in it) to the drain, or between the salt tank and the other/bead tank?

Where are the "head" or the venturi/valves located. At the bottom of the various tanks?

Thanks for all the info. I'm still looking for the book (wife just found the book and it has some exploded diagrams with parts labeled. I'll check that out and see what I can figure out from that. I still may either ask the experts here again or call for help)

Thanks again -- you guys are very helpful in fixing tractors and I knew you'd come through on this also

Bob

The brine tank has to have water in it so the softener can draw brine to regenerate. Ours refills the tank at the end of the cycle.

I have an older Culligan model, ran into a similar problem. Turns out there's a plastic screen in the bottom of the brine tank, local tech told me to drain and clean it about once a year. Too much salt sediment/crud in bottom had basically plugged my screen.

Good luck, hope this helps.

Anthony

Your manual, should you find it, probably will step you through a regeneration cycle and tell you what should be occurring in each phase. Watching (and listening to) it cycle may lead you to clues of the problem.

From what you describe I would guess your valve has a problem. Could be as simple as a bad seal, broken tooth on a gear, missing cam lobe, etc. Sounds like your rinse cycle may not be happening.

There are many brands of softeners out there, but only a handful of valve makers. Some valves are dependable and simple- some not.

Flint and Walling has my vote for one of the best valves.

The head is usually on top of the resin tank with your water flowing to and from it. (house water)It has a removable plastic top on it. There is usually also your electric connection to the head. The brine tank where your salt goes is next to the resin tank. Also, the salt you buy is not 100% salt, it has some percentage of dirt in it. (differing amounts depending on the brand) The brine pickup in the bottom of the brine tank can also be plugged as stated by others. The brine tank should be cleaned out yearly to remove the accumulated dirt.

I found a screen up top that was in serious need of cleaning, around the venturi where the brine gets sucked out of the brine tank and into the resin tank. Hoping that was my problem.

I vacuumed all the non-white stuff I could find off of the top of the salt, and wiped the sides of the brine tank down with bleachy water.

There is probably about a foot of salt in the bottom still, mostly the consistency of table salt (any pellets remaining are small). I was going to top off with pellets before the next refresh and watch as it goes through the cycles.

I think you're saying I should scoop out the rest of the salt tank and wash it out again?

Call me Sargent Schultz, because I know nothing, but a co-worker had a problem and found that a piece of plastic was stuck in a valve. He thought it same in a bag of salt.
SDE

I would just see how it does now that you cleaned the tube out. Just let the salt run out by itself and then clean the bottom of the brine tank out, and the screen in the bottom.

Where are you in SD? My mom was born in Lake Norden, SD, west of Watertown.

We"re about an hour and a half south of there.

So, don"t scoop out the salt but don"t add any yet, just let it use the last foot of salt? If that won"t hurt anything else that sounds like an easier plan.

I suspect I"ve got another clog somewhere else, but will cycle it in a few days and watch it run through it"s paces. It"s not due to recycle for a couple of days, and the day job is intense through Wednesday, at least.

Thanks again,

My experience with my first Sears softener was that if there was more than a few inches of water in the salt tank, the venturi needed to be cleaned, and possibly it might need a new gasket deep inside the venturi assembly. We have quite a bit of iron in our water, and that was most of the problem which required the cleaning of the venturi. I was amazed at the cost of a new gasket: about $15 from Sears, however it was available on the internet for about half that. It was fairly easy to open and clean the venturi on my softener.

Unfortunately softeners do wear out over time. After cleaning out the venturi assembly a couple of times a year and replacing the gasket that wore out several times over about 15 years, I found that my valve assembly was not turning as easily as it should, and so the valve body would stick. The electric motor drives a small gear that operates a larger gear that moves the valve body inside the valve assembly. With wear over the years and added friction inside the assembly from rust and mineral accumulation, sometimes the gear teeth would slip and the valve would stick in that position. I tried disassembling the valve, cleaning out the accumulation of rust and other minerals and replacing the gaskets and seals, and got the softener working again for a while. But the combination of wear and less than totally smooth surfaces inside the valve body caused it to start sticking again after about 6 months. I also found that the replacement parts were ridiculously high priced.

So finally, a few months ago, I went to Sears and bought a new softener that looked similar to the old one, and measured the same. It cost about $400 and fit very easily to the setup I had made for the previous softener. In an afternoon, I installed the new softener, programmed it, and had crystal-clear softened water again. While I probably could have fixed the old softener with about $200 worth of parts, the unit was over 15 years old, and maybe other parts (like maybe the resin) might soon have started giving me trouble. In my opinion, buying the new softener was a good, sound decision for my situation.

I also have reduced the iron in the water, at least somewhat. I just replaced the 35 year old galvanized water line from my pump house to the house with a new polypipe line. The old galvanized line had rusted badly from the inside out. Volume was way down. it was leaking pretty bad underground and at the end was plugging up the whole house filter every couple of days with flakes of rust and particles of gooey rusty stuff. Now the filter still looks clean after several days of use. I am hoping that will help my new softener to last a long time. I know there is and always will be some dissolved iron in our well water, since our well is drilled into basalt, but obviously getting rid of the old galvanized pipe has reduced the iron in the water a bunch. Replacing the water line was a huge job, but it was necessary and really worth the effort.

Should you just replace the water softener? It is hard to know how to answer that question. Especially without looking at your old softener and probably taking it apart a bit. However with a brand new softener, you would expect that everything would work well, at least for a while. Would calling in an expert be a good decision? Maybe, if you cannot fix it yourself. But plan on that service call costing a couple of hundred dollars, and maybe a bunch more. And the technician may still tell you that your best decision would be to get a new water softener.

I would look up the model of water softener you have on the internet and try to download the instruction manual and parts diagram. Then I would try to clean the venturi assembly, to see if I could get the brine sucked out of the salt tank. If you get that working, and the timer/valve body will go through its full cycles normally, you probably will have fixed the water softener, at least for now. But remember, water softeners, like almost everything else, do eventually wear out. Good luck, hope this helps!