Reloading safety.Pics

After firing the derringer and 45 single action revolver, my son discovered that when reloading the shells, the bullets went way to deep in the casings that was fired from the derringer. Only five showed that kind od expansion. Son miked the chambers of both the derringer and the 45 single action 45, measurement occured at the chamber where the casing stays,not the rifling where the bullet follows. Two different shell manufactures =Winchester/ Starline was fired. Starline held their shape when fired in the derringer but winchester casings allowed the bullet to sink way to deep when reloading. Have any of you re loaders come upon this problem? Would like to hear from those who experienced this problem. Regards LOU.


P.S. The Winchesters were factory loaded first, we fired those and this is the first reloading attempt on the winchester shells.

Too deep is too.

(quoted from post at 22:24:55 03/25/13) After firing the derringer and 45 single action revolver, my son discovered that when reloading the shells, the bullets went way to deep in the casings that was fired from the derringer. Only five showed that kind od expansion. Son miked the chambers of both the derringer and the 45 single action 45, measurement occured at the chamber where the casing stays,not the rifling where the bullet follows. Two different shell manufactures =Winchester/ Starline was fired. Starline held their shape when fired in the derringer but winchester casings allowed the bullet to sink way to deep when reloading. Have any of you re loaders come upon this problem? Would like to hear from those who experienced this problem. Regards LOU.


P.S. The Winchesters were factory loaded first, we fired those and this is the first reloading attempt on the winchester shells.

Click to expand...

s part of your reloading operation, are you re-sizing the brass?

JMOR, yes, new Hornady dies,sized with them. Dies are brand new.
LOU

If you can't figure out grammar wise, TOO or TO is close enough.
LOU

Double check your dies. Over the years I have found that just because they are new does not mean they are correct. Had a problem wit ha set of 308 dies that would not size the case right and the bullet would fall inside the case

OLD, wouldn't the Starline brass also be just as loose when we run the dies thru them also? They're not,just nice and snug like they are supposed to be.Means to me the dies are fine.The only ones we have problems with are the Winchester shells.Thanks for the idea though.
LOU

are the case lengths the same?

okierob,yes they are,miked the length and diameter.
LOU

Ya I have heard of problems with the Winchester brass from time to time come to think of it

Is this soft lead or FMJ? Lead won't usually bulge the brass, but hardball will, so will the expanding die not adjusted right. Study the brass closely before and after the resizing die, and study again after you seat the bullet. Atleast you will know which process is deforming them. A hot load will distort the casing too, and just keep checking every shell at evey stage with the dial caliper. Now remember, never force a round into a chamber, if it don't go, it's a no go, stop. Some barrels have no 'leed in' so bullet head can dig into rifling, but action should close normally. These aren't unsually heavy bullets are they? And.... that new win brass might just be too thin... mike the thickness of that too....

Tony in Mass.Thanks, good information. The original Winchester is loaded from factory with lead,but reloaded with plated bullets. For us reloading starts with the book at midway mark for powder, alot easier for recoil,and for just target shooting, I don't like to work up to a max load.For one thing it's too hard on my old hands.lol.All the reloaded ammo went into the cylinder fine,never forced,but when reloaded after depriming and sizing the new plated XTP bullet almost slid right past the groove on the bullet,without being in the press. I think the Winchester brass is thinner from the factory especially when it was loaded from the factory with the lead bullet.

The outside case measures exactly what it is supposed to be,so that is what we are thinking. But keep the information coming,it all helps.
LOU

Since you are reloading for two different guns you need to do a full length resizing. don"t do a neck type it will only work if the bullets are used in the same gun that they were shot from. not all cylinders or chambers are the same. check your manual it will tell you how to setup for both types of resizing.
Walt

waltdavies,these are straight case shell, only rifle type shells have the option of neck only reloading. Straight type shells such as the 45 lc are sized from end to about 1/4" from head size only.The pistols aren't the problems for resizing and reloading,as the Starline cases fit great after reloading,just have problems with FMJ bullet drops aftersizing in Winchester shells.
LOU

Somethings up with your resizing die. Take it appart, look in there, and practice on some old shells as you adjust the screw- and thread into the press itself. Sounds like it needs adjusting- or...????? As you guys get more into this stuff, you might like RCBS dies... I am not much into brand loyalty, but this is kinda important stuff...

You need to increase your crimp. Common problem with 45 Colt and cast bullets, as they don't usually have a cannelure in which to crimp. Starline brass is thicker than Winchester, which is why you saw the problem only on Winchester brass. You may need to seat the bullets deeper, as it could be that the bullet is contacting the rifling in the derringer when you close its action.

If you have any loaded rounds left, please post pictures. Also, you say the bullets are "plated" and "XTP". Hornady XTP bullets are jacketed, not plated. Looking on the Hornady site, it looks like the heavier XTP bullets have cannelures and the lighter ones do not. If you can't get a decent crimp, you may need to switch to a different bullet.

The case wall maybe thinner even though they measure ok outside. Id mike the inside dia. and wall dia. and compare.

(quoted from post at 02:19:18 03/26/13) You need to increase your crimp. Common problem with 45 Colt and cast bullets, as they don't usually have a cannelure in which to crimp. Starline brass is thicker than Winchester, which is why you saw the problem only on Winchester brass. You may need to seat the bullets deeper, as it could be that the bullet is contacting the rifling in the derringer when you close its action.

If you have any loaded rounds left, please post pictures. Also, you say the bullets are "plated" and "XTP". Hornady XTP bullets are jacketed, not plated. Looking on the Hornady site, it looks like the heavier XTP bullets have cannelures and the lighter ones do not. If you can't get a decent crimp, you may need to switch to a different bullet.

Click to expand...

Mark is giving you the correct info Lou. What is happening is you have 2 different brands of brass. They differ and you may need to to set the die differently for each make of brass. Or you may be able to set the crimp die a little tighter and find a happy medium. The only way I know to tell for sure is to try it and see. Set the crimp die 1/8 of a turn deeper until you get appropriate neck tension on the problem brass, then try it with the other brand. If there is no bulging you may find it works fine, or you may find you get shortened brass life. If that's the case you can adjust the dies between brass. Starline is really nice brass usually. I'd do what I could to make it last. Overcrimpig will give you cracks at the case mouth even if you anneal often. Sometimes you have to adjust between guns too.

A dial caliper is not the right tool for measuring this stuff. A tenths reading micrometer and a light hand is the right tool. Sometimes you need to go to ball mics and internal mics to find the subtle differences.

BTW- you can "neck size" to a certain degree with straight wall cases. It's a matter of how far you size and it varies with the die used.

The very best place I know of to get good info on this stuff is www.castboolits.gunloads.com

I had the same issue with a batch of remington .38 spcl. Wall was too thin. I pitched them. New box of same ammo months later they were fine. Go figure

They make a tool to roll a cannelure (ring) on the brass to prevent bullet setback.

your problems are in your brass and sizing. Full length size,full length size,full legnth size.Winchester is a light brass. Starline is actually made at the same plant the winchester's are but seem to be a little harder brass. Derringers are bad about over expanding the cases. Thats a lot of heat and force in a short barrel. Measure the empty case and make sure its still with in the sami spec or if its been strecthed. Just because it was factory ammo does not mean its new or even once fired unless you buy brand new empty brass you never really know.Full length size every time.Guys will argue it shortens brass life which I can see there points, but I feel its a must every time you load. It only takes a minute and you can avoid troubles like these.Make sure your not overcharging the cases as well. You very well mite find that 8 grains of powder is fine in the revolver but to much in your derringer. Before you run your case threw the expander die check and make sure the bullet doesnt drop in to far or youll have to resize again or throw that cartriage away. Not having a crimp on a bullet will cause it to come farther outa the case not further in and I read it to be that your having troubles with bullet seating depth before you even took the reloads to shoot. A good reloading manual should have all your cartriage specs and acceptable lenghts. If you dont have it I highly recommend sierras 5th edition or speers reloading manuals.

Updating the information we found out.
We pulled apart the new winchester 255 gr lead ammo, and the following was found.
Winchester ammo non fired
1. outside diameter of shell case .4730
powder weight from factory 5.9 gr.
bullet weight 255.5gr.
lead bullet diameter .4535
brass wall thickness .0065 in
weight of shell w/primer only 110.4 gr

2. Starline brass
Outside diameter of shell case .4795
bullseye powder reload weight 6.0gr
weight of Hornady XTP HP 250.2 gr.
Bullet dia. .4515
brass wall thickness .0130 in.
weight of shell w/primer only 113.0gr.
** Bullseye powder used per Hornady reloading book is at 6.0 gr of powder,which is the mid way loading range. It ranges from 5.7 gr- 6.0 gr-6.3 gr-to 6.5 max load for a 250 gr bullet.

The book also says the outside diameter of the shell is .480 diameter.

The Hornady reloading die for sizing and de-priming, measurement inside where the case is resized is .4755. This is right to their specs.

The measurement in the weight is off our RCBS electric powder scale-calibrated and double checked for weight on the above findings.
Measurments was from our digital calipers.

The reasons for our problems occuring is the brass on the Winchester shells is the wall thickness is too thin and even when resized,the inside diameter of the case is too large for the .452 bullet, thus allowing the bullet to drop inside the case.Rather than having it pushed in by the reloading press. It seems as though Winchester on this particular brand of bullet used a bigger diameter bullet because it is lead only projectile.This and the fact the case is thinner, it allows the XTP bullet .452 dia. to fall into the shell when placed on the top by hand.



the following steps are what we always do when reloading,
1.Clean used cases with vibrating tumbler and media
2. De-prime and size cases,measure all cases for OAL and Diam
3.Clean primer pockets,reprime cases and add very small bell to
end of case.
4.weigh powder, add to shell.
5. put bullet on top of shell by hand.
6. put shell in press, push bullet into case to
overall length per book specs.
7. crimp shell to bullet, and seal primer and
bullet with ammo sealant.
8. store in case ammo container with tag on it for all the specs of powder charge, date, and all other information.
It should also be noted we are using a single stage reloading press.

So to sum it up, yes Winchester brass on this time is by far thinner and is the cause of the problems we have had.It is not the dies fault, nor operator fault.
Thanks for the ideas and help.LOU

Sorry LOU. I didnt mean to offend you if I did so. Ive been a reloader for along time and you never really know if its someone who is just started or been loading a while. Looks like this isnot your first rodeo. Again I appologize if I offend you or your son.
Nick

nickg, no offense taken, knowing you are just trying to help. I figured we'd post the findings for some who run across the problem. It is a sure bet we won't be shooting Winchester in our large caliber pistols/revolvers. 22's are another story, when and if they become available again. Regards LOU & Victor.

Lou, one possible solution to your thin brass issue may be a collet type sizer. You can adjust them to do a bit more sizing than a standard fixed die. Depending on how your die is cut inside, sometimes you can grind off a little of the bottom of the die, or use a thinner shell holder, to get the case a little further into the sizer die. Or, you can do like do and shoot nice fat cast boolits! Thin brass is great when you need fat boolits to start with to fir the barrel! :lol: