Designed to Fail ??

Eric in IL · Feb 7, 2013

I lost the P.T.O. brake function on my Massey 4355 last summer. Just now getting around to fixing it. The design seems inadequate to me as the tractor only has 600 something hours on it. We purchased it new and it has not been abused. Or at least I don't think it has.

The first pic is of the failed brake. Mind you this is a steel to cast iron friction application. No brake lining involved.

Seems like a mighty small friction area to stop the P.T.O. on an 85 horse tractor to me. Next picture shows where the brake lives.

I didn't have to go too deep as it is just behind the round plate. Not too bad of job as only the rear tire and fuel tank had to be removed for access. Getting to work under the radiant heater was nice too.

Last two pics are for the tractor supporting method police.

I think the brake looks to small, especially when I think of my 7' brush mower coasting to a stop. That is alot of inertia. The remedy according to the dealer is shut tractor off, let things coast to a stop, turn off pto, restart tractor. This is supposed to bypass the braking effect because it requires hydraulic pressure to activate the brake.

What do you think guys, did the engineer blow it or not ?

Anonymous-0 · Feb 7, 2013

nope the engineer did what he was told to do, Make a cheap brake and thats what he did. Just too bad that you have to live with it.

PJH · Feb 7, 2013

Can you use an over-running PTO coupler on that big of a tractor? I cringe every time I turn my PTO off on my old tractors. Things usually don't need to stop that fast.

JimEvans · Feb 7, 2013

The brake isn't designed to "stop" an implement. It is designed to prevent the bare PTO from turning. There should be enough lube supplied that the PTO will not be damaged. I would look closely to make sure that the brake solenoid is not stuck, causing the brake to be on when the PTO is powered.

(Or it could just be a bad design)

samn40 · Feb 7, 2013

I run 3 similar tractors, Bil runs 2 of them, many more in our area
and I have never seen a PTO brake fail nor have I heard of
one.....And in todays world of modern cell phones, you don't be
broke down very long until all your neighbours etc have been
texted and informed!!!! These tractors are very reliable, maybe the
second-hand prices reflect just how good they are..... My 4270 with
nearly 10,000 hrs would fetch around£14,000, I paid £19,000 for it
brand new in 1999.
Do check the PTO over-run clutch of you implements.
Sam

504 · Feb 7, 2013

I try to kill my mower by dropping it in tall grass to stall it. I think the PTO brake will live longer with help.

Ken Macfarlane · Feb 7, 2013

I'm sure you know your machine essentially developed from the MF
165 line of castings, pto, 3 point etc. The 3000's and 5400's
changed designs completely and the pto brake doesn't come on
unless you move the control knob to the brake position. As far as I
know the 4300's where the very last series built on the old chassis
style and was a very reliable and respected machine.

Sean Feeney · Feb 7, 2013

Can't say much about the brake ( Maybe a faulty cast) but that is a real nice shop.
Sean

John B. · Feb 7, 2013

I have to say you have a nice building inside to work from and nice looking equipment. But I would definitely put a jack stand under the left rear axle housing as the main means of support.

retired farmer · Feb 7, 2013

They don't design anything to last very long anymore. Just glad I got out of farming for myself when I did. What I have never figured out tho is why anyone would ever buy a Massey Ferguson tractor.

Eldon (WA) · Feb 7, 2013

(quoted from post at 17:07:29 02/07/13) The brake isn't designed to "stop" an implement. It is designed to prevent the bare PTO from turning. There should be enough lube supplied that the PTO will not be damaged. I would look closely to make sure that the brake solenoid is not stuck, causing the brake to be on when the PTO is powered.

(Or it could just be a bad design)

I think you are correct....read the manual. I think it will say not to use it to stop pto run equipment, but to lock it so it doesn't turn once it is stopped.

Eric in IL · Feb 7, 2013

A faulty solenoid is a possibility and I will do a little testing to
check that out.

I don't have alot of hope for that being the problem though
because the dealer claims he's seen enough of this failure to
think it is a weak point.

Thanks for the tip.

JD Seller · Feb 7, 2013

Sam very few pieces of the equipment over here have a built in over running clutch. Some of the pull type forage harvesters do but not the rotary cutters.

Most of the tractors here have a more robust PTO brake.

Does the MF have a position on the control that turns the power off and then move it all the way and the brake applies??? Some models of the newer JD tractors are that way. The reason being on them I have sheared the shear bolts just turning the PTO off on them. They are aggressive on some models

samn40 · Feb 8, 2013

JD seller, any European made machine which has high inertias in the PTO comes from the factory with an over-run clutch in the drive line. Hence most European built tractors have a brake on the IPTO which comes on as soon as the PTO is disengaged. We had one exception....back in the 60s and early 70s we had many Howard side flinger muck spreaders, these had a shaft the length of the barrel of the spreader with chains and flails.We always pulled the engine stopper before disengaging the PTO on these as they could do quite a bit of damage to any tractors PTO brake. Thankfully farmers have moved away from using them now but the newer machines do have the over-run clutch. On all pto machines the engine should be slowed down to tick-over thus slowing the rotation and flywheel action of the machine before disengaging the PTO.
Sam

samn40 · Feb 8, 2013

Retired Farmer, over half of the tractors sold in the world(outside Russia) since 1960s has been MF or MF machines made under licence. This leaves everyone else to sell the other half. Are these people all wrong?.If you come to Cambridge Machinery sale in England, the largest monthly sale of tractors anywhere in the world(approx 600 tractors every month, from all over the world) You would see just how popular MF tractors are. Many scrap 100 and 200 series tractor sell at twice the price they were new, to be exported and rebuilt and sold on to farm for another x number of years.
Sam

farmer boy · Feb 8, 2013

Like others say, PTO brake shouldn't be used to slow
and stop implements. Not what they were designed
for. You don't necessarily have to shut the tractor
off. Throttle back and let the engine slow the PTO,
then disengage the PTO. The brake is still being
used, but alot less inertia means a whole lot less
wear on the brake.

Eric in IL · Feb 8, 2013

My dealer does not think slowing the engine to an idle is good enough on this tractor.

He recommends killing motor while pto is on to save the brake.

Don-Wi · Feb 8, 2013

We've got a similar issue with our 285. What really does it is if we use it on the silo blower. No ORC and lots of inertia,even when idled down first. simple solution is to avoid using it on the blower.

Donovan from Wisconsin

danofarming · Feb 8, 2013

I have a 4243 and always bring the engine to an idle before disengaging the PTO. I am sure that I have the same brake design as yours. I do not like the fact that the PTO clutch cannot be feathered on engagement.

massey 333 · Feb 8, 2013

A question for you Samn,for a company that you say has 50% of the tractor market.WHY have they went belly up every 5-10 years since 1958 and had to close ALL tractor plants in USA.(until the last yr.)If it wasn't for them letting every Tom-Dick and Harry blacksmith shop in Europe build 35s,there wouldn't be a MF.Like a MF man said a few years ago at a trade show on this Largest Manf.thing,there are parts of the country,they couldn't give them away if they tried.

samn40 · Feb 8, 2013

Trade unions and strikes did a lot of harm at MF, As did top heavy management....Nothing to do with the tractors...Sure some models did have faults, but then can you name any company that made tractors without faults?
Sam

showcrop · Feb 9, 2013

The clutch quit working on my cousin's two year old NH. It had to be split, and the problem was that the release fork was held to the clutch release shaft by a little set screw. He drilled through and put in a bolt. Wouldn't you think that Tony would have thought of that?

Anonymous-0 · Feb 9, 2013

(quoted from post at 23:35:50 02/07/13) They don't design anything to last very long anymore. Just glad I got out of farming for myself when I did. [b:e12fea09ad]What I have never figured out tho is why anyone would ever buy a Massey Ferguson tractor.[/b:e12fea09ad]

That's how I feel about John Deere.

Designed to Fail ??

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