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OT 110 from 220

Does your 220 have two hot leads, a neutral and a ground or two hots and a ground? If there is a neutral you can create 110v.
 
Yes you can sounds like you have the old type of set up so it is not up to code. To be up to code you need 2 hots a neutral and a ground.
That said you just take one hot and the ground and you have a 110 line which is half the 220 which is the old set up as in most older buildings
 
The electricians here will jump up and down if you plan to use the ground as a current carrying return. The ground is there as a safety device and should only be connected to the body of a machine. If you connect your light to the ground the body of the machine you have in the shed on 220 could become energized and create a danger.
 
What is wrong with what I said?? It is a fact that older buildings did only have 2 hots and a ground but new code has 2 hots a neutral and a ground. I knew code back 20 plus years go when I was an electrician but that was years ago. All my building still use the 3 wire set up 2 hots and a ground/neutral but I also have a ground rod in each and every building
 
Is this an overhead triplex supply with two insulated lines and a bare neutral combination support cable?
What kind of a power panel in the shed?
If so the neutral is a neutral.
Only way to keep neutral current from flowing in the ground system is to have the neutral on it's own insulated terminal block. And the panel box/ground bar connected to two ground 10ft ground rods that are at least 10ft apart.
Problem is the mentality of " if it works, it has to be right".
 
By the way I also use a 3 phase breaker box as a single phase breaker box in my shop and have for well over a decade and my shop is still to old 3 wire set up so not neutral
 
Even if you can't get it set with neutral and ground you can use a smallish step down transformer to get the 220 down to 110 for some lights.

My sawmills control circuits are are 110 but it runs 220 v from a welder outlet. Simple transformer from an electric boilers control panel worked perfectly.
 
Possibly. Like Old stated, the way in the past was to run 1 or 2 hots and 1 neutral(grounded) conductor with a ground rod at the shed. IF this what you have then yes it would be OK. HOWEVER if you do not have this ground rod than this would be a very bad idea. The code was just changed about 4 years ago, I don't remember what year, so you needed to bring not only 1 grounded (neutral) conductor to a subpanel but also a grounding (ground) conductor. In this area it is not considered a subpanel if it does not have an initial overcurrent device. An example of this is the meter/generator transfer switch combo that you see on most farms. There are usually up to 4 lugs for landing wires for different services. So if I take 1 line to the house, 1 to the shop, 1 to the barn, and 1 to the detatch garage then I do not have to run a separate ground to each, just drive a ground rod. If I take power to the house and then out of that panel to the garage then I need to carry a separate ground. It all depends on your AHJ (Authority Having Jurisdiction).
 
Why don't you put in 220 volt lights???? I have lights that with wiring changes can be run off 120 - 240 and two other voltages that I a can't remember. If you want an incandescent bulb you can buy a 220 volt bulb also.
 
i noticed no one suggested running two 115V light bulbs in series... two hots and a ground, the math works out... don't know anything about code though.
 
Yep was an electrician till 1992 or so when I stopped working for tracker marine as a maintenance electrician and back then you had 2 110 hots which would equal a 220 and a ground. Yep code changed but I have not kept up with code but do believe in making sure every breaker box has it own ground but so doe the power company and each and every pole has a ground plate on the bottom of them and a ground wire running up the pole
 
As I said 2 110 lines and a ground in was normal till just a few years ago and you simply split the circuit and you have 2-110 lines. Not code any more but was how it was done for many decades
 
Thanks everyone for the info.
Dave S. I can"t find a 220 area light that is anywhere near reasonable in price. I looked all over the web even Granger let me down. Ken M. I searched for a step down transformer also, was not able to find one that would work. The guys at Rexel were no help either.
The 220 line I have feeds three halogen lights 25 feet up a pole. They light a riding ring, I"m looking to put just an area light on the dark side that I can switch control and not have to run the Big lights every time I go down to feed. I thought of just adding one more of the 1500W halogens down low but it would be overkill for what I need. I may end up going that route.
Thanks again
a95930.jpg
 
HARD TO BELIEVE how this is so simple and Buick and I have tried for years to educate some of you but theres still much confusion as posted below, let me try one more time lol

1) Under the old NEC for 120/240 volt single phase three wire service to an outbuilding, you could get by with running ONLY THREE WIRES 2 Hots, 1 Neutral, same as what comes to your house from the Utility.

2) Under the new rules for a safer installation, you run 4 wires, 2 hots, Neutral, Equipment ground. AND AT THE OUTBUILDING NEUTRAL AND GROUND ARE KEPT SEPERATE AND ISOLATED

3) Iffffffff you have 2 hots and a Neutral out there as under the old system ITS 240 LINE TO LINE BUT ONLY 120 LINE TO NEUTRAL SO YES YOU CAN GET 120 FOR A 120 VOLT LIGHT LINE TO NEUTRAL NOTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT LINE TO GROUND

4) Iffffffff its 4 wires out there, you can still get 120 Line to neutral DUHHHHHH

5) EVERY buildings electrical service REQUIRES GROUNDING

WHAT YOU CAN NOTTTTTTT DO WITHOUT A POSSIBLE LIFE THREATENING HAZARD IS TO MIX N MATCH NEUTRAL AND GROUND OR SUBSTITUTE ONE FOR ANOTHER

FOR THE HUNDREDTH TIME

NEUTRAL is a GrounDED live current carrying conductor

EQUIPMENT GROUND is a non live (except for fault current) GroundING conductor used ONLY for carrying fault current NEVER for carrying Neutral return current

DO NOT feel bad if yall dont get this however, it cant be explained in a few paragraps what can take books and a ton of study and pactice and experienceto fully comprehend DONT TAKE MY WORD FOR IT, CONSULT THE NEC...Just remember Ground IS NOTTTTTTTTT THE SAME AS NEUTRAL

If in doubt consult a trained professional electrician or enginner and local utility and local authority and DO NOT place your life in a hazardous situation because of some Billy Bobs or Bubbas who wired their own homes over a cased of beer and are now experts (even no training ever) and by golly their method still works

PS did I forget to mention Neutral is NOTTTT freakin Ground and do NOT mix n match n substitute one for the other lest you wake uyp electrocuted and DEAD?????????

Gettin Frustrated but Im still tryin to help save a life maybe Ol John T Long retired electrical distribution engineer
 
The grounding system is usually bare wire connected to ground rods and is not supposed to carry neutral current. Get it? If you don't you have no clue, that simple.

If the ground system does carry current then live stock can recieve tingle voltage shocks. A common phantom problem that has bankrupted farmers due to livestock stress.

The insulated neutral conductor with the one exception of when it is strung bare overhead in a triplex . Is a current carrying conductor which held to near earth potentional . In the bad old days by a ground to neutral bond at each panel.

However since this ground to neutral bond raised the ground system voltage up to neutral system voltage. And caused problems with livestock, electronics and other equipment.

The trend is now different but slow to adopt because " we always done it this way and it worked and was good enough" stubborn mentality. Is to bond the neutral only at the central transformer pole if the power is run to several separate panels in different buildings.
Or only at the first distribution panel and float the neutral downstream in the sub panels via tingle voltage filters.

The utilities in the past before they knew better,to save money and limit lighting pulses. They tied the overhead neutral to ground every few power poles.

The utilities now wish the high voltage neutral had never been grounded as such. Because now if the utility high voltage neutral and the secondary side neutral of the utility transformer is bonded. The elevated utility neutral voltage raises the customer's neutral and ground system voltage.

Why, because all conductors have resistance and voltage drop. Also because sometime ground rods make a high resistance connection to earth.

I find all sorts of "electricians" that don't know the neutral-ground difference. Just how exactly does Bubba think he is right and a long list of engineers, utility inspectors and utility workers are wrong?

Rare do I recall of anybody being glad about being wrong. I don't expect you to like the ground and neutral is different message either. Just because you don't like the truth from somebody young enough to be your kid is another matter.And does not affect the laws of physics.
 
JohnT, Don't you know all the problems of the world is blamed on teachers and you have tired to teach people something. Keep it up and you will be blamed for all the world's problems.
George
 
Ah but in the old system it was NEVER call neutral it was called ground but as I explained it down below but still some do not read what is said but only read what the want to . But in Hayseeds case as he explained it he can get the 110 from the 220 he has plain and simple
 
(quoted from post at 21:02:11 01/07/13) JohnT, Don't you know all the problems of the world is blamed on teachers and you have tired to teach people something. Keep it up and you will be blamed for all the world's problems.
George
Click to expand...
ost if not all the 'confusion' could easily been avoided if "grounded" and "grounding" conductor terminology had been avoided like the plague! Of course then it wouldn't have been "code" and a whole industry of classes, books explaining the "code", etc., etc. would not have been necessary. Fortunately, I have my secret Annie Oakley decoder ring, so I can read & understand the "code". What the H would have been wrong with "Neutral" and "Earth"? Just too straight forward? :roll: :evil:
 
Ah, but in over forty years as an electrical enginner and working with licensed PROFESSIONAL electricians, electrical techs, electrical contractors and other electrical enginners we ALL knew the difference between Neutral and Ground and we all ALWAYS called Neutral Neutral and we ALWAYS called Ground Ground PERIOD Those in the electrical trade DO KNOW THE DIFFERENCE AND DO CALL NEUTRAL NEUTRAL NOTTTTTTTTTTT GROUND LOL

Its the Jack legs and Billy Bobs and Amateurs and rookies and the ignorant and uneducated who dont know the difference and call Neutral Ground and Ground Neutral and they just dont have a clue and never will

FORTUNATELY youre an OLD Navy tech and you do know the difference I trust

Take care Rich

John T
 
Well of course I know the difference but when going aobut explain things here and saw where hayseed had said 2 hots and a ground I knew he would not understand with out using his own terms but did also say things about the neutral and ground then got jumped about it by buick/deere.
In all my stuff I still have the old 3 wire system but I also have a ground rod at each and every breaker box so as to make sure things are grounded to be on the safe side. I hate it when you grab a building that has a metal skin and you get zapped doing so, so learned to be sure to ground every building to be on the safe side.
But again I use simple terms to help people who do not understand what we do
 
OLD,
My dad was born in 1920. Some where between 1938-40 he attended a tech school to learn how to wire houses. I think it was called rod and tube. There was a bare wire running in the attic. When it went through a board, there was an insulator installed in the wood so the bare wire didn't touch the wood. Talk about being safe.

Now, this is going to cause a stir, I'm sure. Dad said that farmers would run only one power wire to a water pump. The other wire on the pump was tied to the well pipe. Sacry right? Made cows jump? Of course, they were not breaking any NEC codes, because there wasn't any NEC at the time.

Fast forward to 2009. REMC runs two wires down the west side of my property, which at the time was under water. We had a storm and the wires get knocked down. The REMC boys connected only the power wire and for over 2 years the other wire was on the ground. So just the power wire is going to the transformer that powers my house in the country. No one got killed, the world didn't come to an end, house didn't burn down, nothing in the house blew up. This reminded me of my dad's story of the farmer powering up his pump with just one wire.

I realize it takes two wires to complete the path for electricity to flow. The current powering up my transformer had to be going to the earth's ground. Call it want you want, ground, common, neutral. It worked with just one power wire and a grounding rod for over 2 years.

REMC had to be reminded that one of their wires was on the ground and the theifs hadn't take it. REMC finally got around to fixing it this past summer.

I would never drive a rod in the ground to make 110v, but it was done in my dad's day. REMC was using just a grounding rod from 2009 to 2012.

George
 
Where did I say any thing about driving a rod in the ground to make 110. I did say he could take as HE called it the ground and one hot to get 110. I was a Navy E.T. as in Electronics technician years ago so I do understand electricity. BUT not I did not tell him to drive a rod in the ground to use as one leg of a 110 circuit. Yes I have said I do install ground rods in each and every building but I have 3 wires coming into the building as in 2 hot and one neutral. Wish people would stop reading things into what I say when I DO NOT SAY SUCH things
 
Old, Chill, I only added this comment to say that ground, in the early days, was truely used as ground. I didn't mean to upset you or anyone, please forgive.

I think it's weird how much to do we make of ground and neutral, 3 wire, 4 wire, how many grounding rods and REMC for over 2 years wired my transformer like the old farmers did 70 years ago, a single power wire and a rod in the ground.

I would never make 110 using a ground rod either, but bubba, the old boys, and REMC did. That was my point.

Guess the code police should have given REMC a ticket:)

George
 
Ya many things have been done over the years that where just plain and simple crazy and could have gotten some one hurt but it did work.
As for what you said I just reacted that way due to others who seem to think they know what is right and then others jump all over me on this one. Sort of gets old when people do not take the time to really read what is said but instead read into things in there own way.
As for code well that seems to change often to meet the wants of the people in power
 
Old, I know first hand just how rude some people can be. As Dave2 would say, Lack of people skills.

I hope if you carefully read what I wrote, I wasn't getting on your case. Sorry if you thought I was. I try to show some degree of respect for people who have a difference in opinion.

I still think there is a double standard in how things are done and that is what I was pointing out. My electric company leaving one of their wires on the ground for 2+ years and only using a rod in the ground at my transformer.

Another one of my pet-pees is that the wire carrying current is also connected to the metal frame of my close dryer and electric range. Been that way for over 40 years and you can still get them wired that way. DOUBLE STANDARD.

Another double standard, as pointed out in a previous post, 220 volt Air conditioners, water heaters, electric furnaces, electric base board heaters all are controlled by breaking one leg of the 220v. But mention breaking just one leg on a 220v air compressor and look at how many people jump all over you. I personally have a hard time figuring out what the big deal is, but mention that and see how many code police jump on you because you are breaking a code. Forget code for a moment, say the code book hasn't been written yet, explain why it's ok for all the things I mention above to be controlled by breaking one leg, but it's not OK for an air compressor that is properly grounded.

Old, just watch how many people will jump on me now instead of explaining the DOUBLE STANDARD using logic without going to their code book or making personal attacks on me.

Look, I'm for safety too. Still alive after 50 years of working with electricity. Can't remember the last time I got shocked. Can't remember people here treating others with different opinions with respect.

OLD, have a great day.

George
 
I'm one of the unclean, unwashed, ignorant masses. Auto wiring I get, service wiring...not so much. So that brings me to the question- I get the diff between neutral and ground, more or less. So since I have the 3 wire service pretty much every where, and since people are talking about using a ground at all building (which I think I have anyway- maybe) what is required to "change" to the 4 wire system? I'm thinking as hard as I can, which ain't real hard, and it seems to me all my boxes have the 2 hot/1 neutral/1 ground set up. I can't recall any breaker box not having a separate ground. I also can't recall any neutrals being grounded.

So, other than running 4 wires instead of "triplex" whats the diff?
 
Are you using 220v for something in the shed or is just there? If you are not using 220v you could easily change the incoming wire to 110v.
 
I Believe this topic seems to get more response than any tractor question asked. Comes up about every 3 months and has been discussed more than what engine oil to use.. Sure is good reading. I get mixed up in what is a SUB PANNEL .. My Shop is fed 4 wire below the meter But above the house service breaker box. The shop pure ground is also run thru a ground rod there at the shop. Now after that I do have a three wire ran out to the mill shed that is split in to 2 110s . NO GROUND rod so I don,t know if I am in trouble or not. Has worked for 6 years and no shocks so far.
 
(quoted from post at 10:22:40 01/08/13) I Believe this topic seems to get more response than any tractor question asked. Comes up about every 3 months and has been discussed more than what engine oil to use.. Sure is good reading. I get mixed up in what is a SUB PANNEL .. My Shop is fed 4 wire below the meter But above the house service breaker box. The shop pure ground is also run thru a ground rod there at the shop. Now after that I do have a three wire ran out to the mill shed that is split in to 2 110s . NO GROUND rod so I don,t know if I am in trouble or not. Has worked for 6 years and no shocks so far.
Click to expand...
et the 'right' inspector to look at it & he WILL find something 'wrong'!
 
Maybe they just ran a line, a neutral and a ground to the shed?
If line 1 and line 2 were ran to the shed. Then there must be an insulated neutral and a ground.
There should be a ground rod at the shed panel.
More than one circuit out to the shed requires a sub panel in the shed. With the neutral floating and the grounds all bonded together.
 
On that note I think it is funny how in a common breaker box you have 2 hots coming in at the top and then a neutral bus bar at the bottom and then here is what gets me. The ground and the neutral bot hook to the bus bar at the bottom but call that neutral wire a ground and you get jumped on from both side plus form the top and the bottom but yet electrically speaking they are one in the same if you look at the fact they are hooked to the exact same place but call the neutral ground of ground neutral well you get both barrels
 
I have often said this is one of the best sites on the internet. The vast range of knowledge, backgrounds and experience that you all have is unparalleled. The willingness to share/help is something that I don’t see elsewhere. Still not sure what I will do for light but will NOT be using the ground (bare copper) for a common return. Thanks again for all the info.
 
(quoted from post at 12:38:07 01/08/13) On that note I think it is funny how in a common breaker box you have 2 hots coming in at the top and then a neutral bus bar at the bottom and then here is what gets me. The ground and the neutral bot hook to the bus bar at the bottom but call that neutral wire a ground and you get jumped on from both side plus form the top and the bottom but yet electrically speaking they are one in the same if you look at the fact they are hooked to the exact same place but call the neutral ground of ground neutral well you get both barrels
Click to expand...

That is why the proper supply out to a remote panel is four wires and float the neutral bar.Problem we are stuck with a hang over from the early 1900's with a three wire overhead triplex supply.
The proper connection at a remote panel supplied with a triplex. Is a floating neutral bar connected to earth through a tingle voltage filter. Or if legal, float the neutral and run a proven working ground system with no neutral to earth bond.
The only reason neutral has a connection to earth is to keep the neutral at earth potential. And limit line touch voltage to a max of 120,240,277 or 600.
The ground bond to neutral which is only supposed to occur at the transformer and at the first panel depending. This is to limit the possible shock to earth to less than 120,240,277 or 347 V. Incase the service transformer fails .
 
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