(800) 853-2651
SHOP NOW

OT 22 lr cal target groups?

J

JF in MI

Well-known Member
After reading posts on this site for the last several years I get the impression that a lot of folks out there keep a rifle handy on their tractor to handle gophers and such. While off topic I figured I’d ask a question because I usually get better answers here than on other sites. Hopefully there are some 22 experts out there.
I just hand built up a 22 lr target rifle (my second attempt) out of a combination of old and new parts. I read that most agree that 75 yds is the best distance to zero in on. My question is; what would be considered good groups at that distance? With the scope at the maximum 9 power I’m seeing my own heart beats moving the cross hairs (I tried stopping them but each time I did I passed out…just joking). I’m seeing 3.5” groups at that distance just with the bipod (I probably need a bench rest) but I have no idea if that is considered reasonable or not. Any opinions?
a92738.jpg
 
Keep trying different ammo. It should do better than that. Can you shoot a high-power & get tighter groups? If not, it is you rather than the rifle.
 
This is the only "modern" rifle I have with any kind of good scope. This is also exactly what I'm trying to find out; If the "average" 22 rifle will do tighter groups or if it is me. I'm simply not as young as I used to be and while, as I said, my heart beat is moving the cross hairs it is reasuring to indicate I'm still alive ;-)
 
One Minute Of Angle (MOA) is 1" at 100 yards, and is about the baseline for a decent hunting rifle, .22s included. I would expect 1/2MOA or better out of a target rifle, so about 3/8" at 75 yards. The group you mention is pretty poor by my standards, especially with a target gun. You should be able to head-shoot a squirrel every time at that distance, my pet .22 with iron sights is one ragged hole out to 100 yards.
 
As you said, "my heart beat is moving the cross hairs",. Maybe you are holding the butt of the rifle too tight against your shoulder...just a thought.
 
I have a ruger 10-22 and its sighted in at 50 yards. I can put all 10 shots in a 3/4 of an inch group. I shoot remington thunderbolts. They are the cheapest remington ammo but they are deadly accurate for my gun.
 
I built up a .22 target rifle 45 years ago using the bolt out of an old Remington single shot. I made the rest of then action myself, but could only afford a weaver 4x scope on it. It would put a box of shells into 1-1/4" at 100 yards off a bench, and I suspect would do better with a better scope. I was using Remington standard velocity cartridges, not target ammo
 
I have a bolt action Remington .22 rifle. At 50 yards we shot pig nut hickory nuts off of a flat board. They are only 3/4 of an inch in diameter. At 100 yards I can usually hold a grouping of under two inches. This is using a sand bag and bench for a rest.

I would try different ammo because there is differences in how they shot in different guns. In my Remington .22 I have found Winchester Ammo works best. I have a cheap Rossi that works best with Federal Ammo. So try several brands.

Then I would get a sand bag and rest it on a bench/truck hood etc. Then watch your breathing. Take a deep breathe and slowly exhale. Just before you fully exhale make your shot. Gently pull the trigger. Make sure you are not jerking the trigger. Practice dry firing the gun to get a feel for the trigger spring. On a small bore rifle it is much easier to not flinch when it fires. This can be a problem on large bore rifles.

Try some of this and see if you get a better grouping. You should be able to get a tighter group.
 
How much does your rifle weight when I shot target in high school ours weighed in at 10.5 lbs. lighter rifles just don't hold on the target that good. A bull eye at 50 ft was 1/4 in. The size of the bullet. I still have one of my targets with a perfect 50 score. We also used peep sites no scopes allowed in competition shooting.
My schools varsity team broke the world record for 100 yards. The coach was really proud of that.
Walt
 
Is the front of the scope touching the barrel? If it is touching the barrel, vibration and heat expansion of the barrel could be another part of the problem.
 
JDseller

" Practice dry firing the gun"....

Do you think that is good advice? If you disagree, I would like to know why.

Otherwise, I agree with your suggestions. They are very good points.
 
Shoot with both eyes open. Gives you better depth perception and helps follw through.
Think "I am going to ease this bullet down the barrel" Make sure the trigger is NOT in the joint/crack of your finger but out there on the fat fleshy middle of the pad.
Make sure your head is vertical, not tipped forward and "looking under your eyebrows".
I also shot on HS, Boy Scout, and ROTC in college rifle teams. I guess it helped Dad bought me a long heavy barrel target .22 when I was 10 instead of the popular Madel 61 Win.pump.
 
That is one beautiful Gun! I love that stock.
Remember in Basic ? one of the rules is to learn to relax,... you may be trying too hard. using unnecessary mussel power to hold the gun. Bo the breathing method also.
I'd try sand bag under the rear of the stock and gently grip the pistol grip. Let the rifle do the work. the "trigger pull" may be off what your used to. as mentioned dry firing will get you a better feel.
 
Maybe you should ask Old where to get your hands on a rifle like he shot back in the 60s. Here's a quote on what Old said they did with one of those "Plain Jane"rifles.

Posted: Thu Oct 27, 2011 8:31 pm Post subject: Re: O/T guns

"And you don't know crap. I watched a friend and my brother shoot jack rabbits at 400-500 yards and the rabbits lost. Ya it took a few shoots to zero them in but after that the rabbits fell. That was back in the late 60s when I was a lot younger and people who shoot had a clue as to how to do it."
 
Nice work on your custom rifle.

Years ago I worked with a fellow who won the NRA national smallbore championship at Camp Perry one year, senior class. Obviously he practiced nearly every weekend, and he was fanatical about ammo. He used fairly expensive match-grade ammo for practicing, and in competition he used very expensive stuff.

My suggestion is for you to try a box of match-grade ammo, such as Eley. If your groups don't shrink, then the problem is in your rifle. 3 inch groups at 75 yards is unacceptable in a varmint or target rifle. Also, you should be shooting off sandbags when you shoot your groups; it's very difficult to get consistent groups shooting on a bipod.

Another thing that's easy to forget is to make sure your "cheek weld" (the point your jaw touches the stock) is consistent. At 75 yards most scopes will have a bit of parallax error. You need to make sure your eye is the same distance from the scope's eyepiece every time you shoot.
 
If I didn't learn anything from the army, the one thing that I remember them telling us on the rifle range is to always have a DAYLIGHT trigger finger when you are shooting. Also as the other poster said use the fleshy part of your finger tip on the trigger.

Bob
 
(quoted from post at 21:53:08 12/15/12) Maybe you should ask Old where to get your hands on a rifle like he shot back in the 60s. Here's a quote on what Old said they did with one of those "Plain Jane"rifles.

Posted: Thu Oct 27, 2011 8:31 pm Post subject: Re: O/T guns

"And you don't know crap. I watched a friend and my brother shoot jack rabbits at 400-500 yards and the rabbits lost. Ya it took a few shoots to zero them in but after that the rabbits fell. That was back in the late 60s when I was a lot younger and people who shoot had a clue as to how to do it."
Click to expand...

LOL is all I have to say!
 
Well it was good enough when they taught me how to shoot and hold a pattern at 1000 yards in the Army. We where using dummy ammo but a .22 rifle is not going to hurt the firing pin by dry firing it. There is no other way to "feel" the trigger pull accurately. Unless you know exactly when the trigger is going to fire the shot how are you going to be accurate???

Maybe if you want to be a half good shot you do not have to have that knowledge. If you want to be a good shot you need to know that for every gun you own/use.

I own a pair of Colt 1911 45 cal pistols. I have shot over 20,000 rounds through them. I can tell you within thousandths when they are going to fire. I have won bets with my sons over this. A small piece of clay under the trigger will measure how far you pull the trigger. Pull as close as you can to not firing. Then do it over and make it fire. You can measure the difference. I have done it with the difference being under .005 between the two. Used to be able to get under .003. Hands are not as good any more.
 
I have known some guys that could shot amazingly well. Some of them would keep the pad of their trigger finger sanded down so they did not have an callous to dampen the "feel" they wanted on the trigger. I am talking guys holding one-two inch patterns at a 1000 yards.
 
Walt- Shot 2nd Army targets on a small bore indoor range in High school. A '10' was a dot in the center of the target about the size of the period at the end of this sentence. The '9' was the 1/4" first ring. By the way, I used to shot about a 380 on four positions, and was second string.... When I shot the NRA targets, my score was closer to 390.
 
we shoot 1 in groups out of old marlin 60"s at a 100. but we also shoot just about every weekend also. that is a nice lookin rifle though
find what it likes best, an practice practice practice. what more could ya have then practice shooting
 
Great looking rifle. That said 3.5 inches at 75 yards is way too large of a spread, especially for a heavy barreled target rifle sitting on a bipod. For an example I recently bought a used Remington 597 semi auto .22 with a 3 to 9 power scope on it. I can routinely stand at 75 yards and knock down the little boxes that the shells come packaged in, and they are maybe 1 1/2 tall, and maybe 1 inch wide. If I had bipod, or simply use a tree or something as a rest I can hold tighter groups than that on an actual sight in target if I take my time. With one of the 30 round clips I can rapid fire and get the majority of the 30 within about a 2 inch space with a few fliers. All of this using either the cheap $19 to $20 for 500 to 550 round ammo. With the good stuff I imagine I could do even better.

Getting off rifles but still taking about the .22 long rifle cartridge, my wife is using a Walther P22 pistol and can usually hold about a 4 inch pattern, with a ten shot clip, standing, at just shy of 20 yards. Not too shabby for someone that had only shot a pistol a handfull if times until she started shooting with me.
Bad as I hate to say it, I'm decent with a rifle, but she beats the heck out of me with the pistol at that distance.
 
The newest world record 1000 yard group I've located is 1.43". Most "really tight" 1K yard groups (not patterns, shotguns have patterns, rifles shoot groups) are in the 3-6" range. Most "decent groups are under a foot. The average rifle mans 1K group would run in the 3-4 foot range on a good day.

Anyone getting actual measured and witnessed 1" groups at 100 yards with a Marlin 60 needs to call every shooting magazine in the world and start making some big dollars.

Dry firing a rimfire will eventually ruin the chamber and possibly the firing pin. If you want to do that there are snap caps made to prevent the damage seen in so many dry fired 22's.

JFinCT- Bedding is everything with a target rifle. I can't make out what action you have there, but my first question would be how is the action attached to the stock? Are there 2 action screws or just one? Is it glass bedded? Is the barrel an actual target grade barrel or off a production gun and how is it bedded? What kind of chamber and crown are you using? How many rounds through the barrel? What about brand of scope and mounts? Are the mounts tight, is the scope a known decent one? How much experience shooting bench rest do you have? Have you tried the rifle without the bi-pod? Are you capable of shooting under an inch @100yds with a rifle that can do it? All pertinent info required to even start figuring out where to go next.

IME 22's tend to require what some call " seasoning" of the bore. IOW, if you switch ammo, say go from a Remington product to CCI, it often seems the rifle takes 20-50 shots with the new ammo before the barrel fouling evens out or "seasons" and the groups tighten. Firing 5 or 10 shots may tell you nothing about what ammo the rifle likes.

If you are experiencing the shakes with a 9 power then I suggest at least a bag under the buttstock. Relax your grip, practice breathing control. You have to get the rifle steady to even begin to shoot tight groups.

There's a lot to this and there are websites dedicated to 22 benchrest shooting that go way beyond anything you'll find here.
 
Plenty of good advice so far. First, try the different brands of ammo with sandbags and a very solid bench, your body will never hold still enough to tell the difference otherwise. Second, practice holding the crosshairs on the target and dry firing; it won't hurt your gun and you will see how much you flinch (my guess is a lot).
 
Beez, you don't understand that in the days of old's remembered youth, 22 rifles had a thousand-yard range, rabbits were the size of bulldozers and a yard was only seventeen inches.
 
ya better get you some snap caps if your gonna dry fire for any amount of time,..contrary to some of the posts,...do it enough and you'll end up with a burr on the chamber that will need fixed.....BTDT
 
Are you saying that people shoot 1 foot groups at 1000 yards with a .22? That seems impossible no matter what gun is used.
 
Bret I do not know what the world record is but I have seen many sniper teams at Fort Benning do their training. The range Sargent would fold a dollar bill in half and staple it to the target at 1000 yards. The teams did not get to graduate until a five shot group all where inside that folded dollar bill.

I have personally seen groups that a silver dollar would cover. This is teams that do this as their JOB and they train all of the time. Real dedicated guys.

I have shot that range with those rifles too. I am not very good. I was lucky to keep the shots on the body target. Now move under fifty yards and give me a pistol and I can usually beat those guys. Well at least thirty years ago I could.

Some things about getting older sucks. Mainly my eye sight is not as good any more to really shoot well any more.
 
>JFinCT- Bedding is everything with a target rifle. I can't make out what action you have there, but my first question would be how is the action attached to the stock? Are there 2 action screws or just one? Is it glass bedded? Is the barrel an actual target grade barrel or off a production gun and how is it bedded? What kind of chamber and crown are you using? How many rounds through the barrel? What about brand of scope and mounts? Are the mounts tight, is the scope a known decent one? How much experience shooting bench rest do you have? Have you tried the rifle without the bi-pod? Are you capable of shooting under an inch @100yds with a rifle that can do it? All pertinent info required to even start figuring out where to go next.<
Bret; thanks for your reply. Understand here that I'm trying to find out what is considered "reasonable", meaning "what should my expectations be". I can assure you that the issue is mostly me (I don't shoot enough) however I know now that I need to "clamp up" the rifle in some sort of bench rest to see what it is capable of before I work on myself.
To answer some of your questions; I have somehow come to own numerous 22 (and other) hunting rifles but I am not and never was a hunter so I sold them all but wanted a "fun" target rifle to shoot on occasion. This is my second project (I seem to enjoy the building more than the shooting. Pathetic, I know) and the main objective is not spending money. Anyone can solve problems by throwing enough money at it. After all, why would someone waste time with an 'antique' tractor when a brand new one would do the job better? You already know the answer to that.
My first "22 rifle project cost me $25. This one I have about $150 into (I really splurged).
The Action and barrel is an old Marlin 20 which I bought mainly because it was already grooved for a scope. I sold the old stock and sights for the same whole purchase price. Machined my own "barrel sleeve" set with lead over the stock barrel to add weight and stability. Tasco scope and mounts from Wally World $40. First stock was hand carved walnut but I wasn't happy with it so I sold it for $100 and bought a rough finished 'Richard's Custom' laminate for it and made up all the trim plastics. Reworked the trigger/sear and bolt for a nice crisp 1# release. The cheek rest is set for me so each time I'm looking dead center through the scope. Ammunition is just bulk 22LRHP Winchester. Action is held in with the stock single screw and is not specially bedded. I too have been impressed by the claims of some of the near professional snipers here but again I just wanted to know what the rifle "should" be capable of before I get my ghillie suit and go after them gophers.
 
Adding weight to a barrel does not make it match-grade. However, do the following:

1. Buy some match ammo.
2. Thoroughly clean the barrel. (Later Marlin rifles use "Micro-Groove" barrels that tend to lead-foul.)
3. Set the rifle up on sandbags and a solid bench.

It will probably take a few rounds for the newly-cleaned barrel to settle down. You may be pleasantly surprised at the results.
 
>Adding weight to a barrel does not make it match-grade.<
Agreed but it sure seemed to make a difference in holding it steady. I used to have a Nylon 66 and while sweet it was like trying to hold steady a dried stick.
 
JF,
I am no means an expert, I do own and shot a lot of different guns. My 10/22 Ruger which has no mods to it will overlap every shot at 30 yards. At 75 yards, I can hold 1.5 to 2" groups with off the shelf ammo.

One thing I did find was CCI Green Tag ammo shot worse than any other ammo I have ever feed in through it. I use Remington wildcats with good accuracy. I have a cheaper Tasco 3x9 scope.

My only advice is it may be something as simple as ammo, I had the same problem with one of my 30-.06s too.

Rick
 
Then you'll need to order a barrel or chamber swage from Brownell's to correct the problem. I dry fired a mossberg 151K when I was a kid and promptly broke the firing pin. Thankfully I sourced another before "dad" needed to use it LOL !!! I had been cleaning and taking care of his firearms better than he did, at a young age, and made the dry fire mistake that one time. I agree with the method as stated about the determination of trigger pull, its paramount with my M1A when taking 250 yd or longer shots, but I would have to say that with a rim fire, you need to use dummy or snap caps, my most recent acquisition, an old marlin 783 .22WMR, had the ever so slightest need for a swage, extractor was defective, but the chamber seemed to grip the brass to much, likely been dry fired enough to just slightly deform the chamber face, one pass with swage and new extractor, tosses the spent round with ease now. Now if Numrich/gun parts will ever have the cartridge lift spring back in stock, I will have a nice shooter for under $100 !
 
(quoted from post at 09:15:10 12/16/12) &gt;JFinCT- Bedding is everything with a target rifle. I can't make out what action you have there, but my first question would be how is the action attached to the stock? Are there 2 action screws or just one? Is it glass bedded? Is the barrel an actual target grade barrel or off a production gun and how is it bedded? What kind of chamber and crown are you using? How many rounds through the barrel? What about brand of scope and mounts? Are the mounts tight, is the scope a known decent one? How much experience shooting bench rest do you have? Have you tried the rifle without the bi-pod? Are you capable of shooting under an inch @100yds with a rifle that can do it? All pertinent info required to even start figuring out where to go next.&lt;
Bret; thanks for your reply. Understand here that I'm trying to find out what is considered "reasonable", meaning "what should my expectations be". I can assure you that the issue is mostly me (I don't shoot enough) however I know now that I need to "clamp up" the rifle in some sort of bench rest to see what it is capable of before I work on myself.
To answer some of your questions; I have somehow come to own numerous 22 (and other) hunting rifles but I am not and never was a hunter so I sold them all but wanted a "fun" target rifle to shoot on occasion. This is my second project (I seem to enjoy the building more than the shooting. Pathetic, I know) and the main objective is not spending money. Anyone can solve problems by throwing enough money at it. After all, why would someone waste time with an 'antique' tractor when a brand new one would do the job better? You already know the answer to that.
My first "22 rifle project cost me $25. This one I have about $150 into (I really splurged).
The Action and barrel is an old Marlin 20 which I bought mainly because it was already grooved for a scope. I sold the old stock and sights for the same whole purchase price. Machined my own "barrel sleeve" set with lead over the stock barrel to add weight and stability. Tasco scope and mounts from Wally World $40. First stock was hand carved walnut but I wasn't happy with it so I sold it for $100 and bought a rough finished 'Richard's Custom' laminate for it and made up all the trim plastics. Reworked the trigger/sear and bolt for a nice crisp 1# release. The cheek rest is set for me so each time I'm looking dead center through the scope. Ammunition is just bulk 22LRHP Winchester. Action is held in with the stock single screw and is not specially bedded. I too have been impressed by the claims of some of the near professional snipers here but again I just wanted to know what the rifle "should" be capable of before I get my ghillie suit and go after them gophers.
Click to expand...
I've got a model 52 Winchester (4 digit S/N) and there is no way I'd expect 1.5 in. groups at 100 yds. with 22 LRHP winchester ammo.
 
>I've got a model 52 Winchester (4 digit S/N) and there is no way I'd expect 1.5 in. groups at 100 yds. with 22 LRHP winchester ammo. <

This is the type of stuff I need to know. I don't want to waste too much time on the unobtainable.
 
I looked through several pages attempting to determine the requirements for Army snipers with no joy. I'm sure they are good, but the 1.43" @1K yards appears to be THE record and it's not held by a military shooter as far as I can find. 1.43" is a lot different than the 9" kill zone on a human target. I've shot at 1K yards at the standard target for that range which I believe is about 10 feet square. Let's just say no one is in certain danger from me at that range, mostly due to wind drift as my dispersion was mostly lateral. At any rate, I'll leave the bragging to others.


JF- You don't need to "lock the rifle down to a bench". You simply need a solid support for the rifle and you. As far as your rifle, if I understand you made a lead filled barrel sleeve to fit over a production barrel, put it in a non-bedded stock held by a single screw and are using the standard grooved receiver rings and a Walmart scope with bulk 22 ammo? I mean absolutely no offense, but 3" at 50 or 75 yards might be all you'll get. To start with you have an inexpensive action and barrel of no special quality and, IIRC, a sliding fit action/barrel junction which is pinned. Then you put a heavy tube over it, filled it with melted lead, and depended on the single action screw alone to hold it steady in the unbedded stock. Then you put an inexpensive scope in the groove type mounts and wonder why you aren't getting tight groups. There's a very good possibility that your set up is moving within the stock at every shot to start with and that the barrel is in torsion just sitting there. In short, I like your stock, but you might want to rethink the rest of it.

I have a Winchester 52 similar to GVSII, mines a 5 digit ser# IIRC, wearing a 6x Lyman Junior Target spot. At 50 yards with select ammo I expect 10 shots in a ragged cluster under an inch. At 100....on a still day with no mirage, maybe it would shade an inch, but something in the 1.5" area might be more like it. With standard bulk 22 I'd be happy with 2.5" and if the breeze is up closer to 3-3.5 and I wouldn't be surprised if the groups were a little bigger. Both my Remington 511s would be doing good to stay in the 1.25-1.5" at 50-60 yards off a bench for 10 shot groups and they are good rifles. My 10-22 will add 3/4" to that. Yes, I'll get 5 shot groups down under and inch from time to time, but I think 10 shots tells the truth better and 25-50 shots is even more so.

I don't know what to tell you about your gun. For popping gophers out to 75 yards or so I'd find a nice 22 lr that fit me and put a decent sighting system on it in Weaver style mounts. Then I'd pick up a variety os 22 ammo and see what shoots best. Practice, practice, practice.
 
Bret;
I think there ia a little misunderstanding here. I have NEVER wondered WHY I'm 'not' getting tight groups. I have no idea what size a group for 22 cal at 75 yds is tight, lose, or average. THAT is what I'm asking here and I am pretty satisfied with the answers here. If I knew that holes in the target should be touching at 75 yds I still wouldn't have spent my money on a "professional" rifle over aged whiskey. It's a matter of priorities.
 
(quoted from post at 18:27:46 12/16/12) Bret;
I think there ia a little misunderstanding here. I have NEVER wondered WHY I'm 'not' getting tight groups.
If I knew that holes in the target should be touching at 75 yds I still wouldn't have spent my money on a "professional" rifle over aged whiskey. It's a matter of priorities.
Click to expand...

Finaly someone says something I can relate to. I had been shooting large groups all day and wanted to spend some money to make myself feel better,I will take "professionaly aged wiskey" over a "professionaly prepared rifle" every time. :wink:
 
JF in CT

So, after everyone tried to help you with your situation, your reply is..." If I knew that holes in the target should be touching at 75 yds I still wouldn't have spent my money on a "professional" rifle over aged whiskey."

Sounds like you may be trying to make a silk purse out of a sows' ear.
 
With a beautiful st up like that if you can not cover a 10 round shot group fired from 75 yards with a 50 cent piece you should give the rifle to your wife and go sit on the poarch. Think about your marksmanship skills!
 
(quoted from post at 15:27:46 12/16/12) Bret;
I think there ia a little misunderstanding here. I have NEVER wondered WHY I'm 'not' getting tight groups. I have no idea what size a group for 22 cal at 75 yds is tight, lose, or average. THAT is what I'm asking here and I am pretty satisfied with the answers here. If I knew that holes in the target should be touching at 75 yds I still wouldn't have spent my money on a "professional" rifle over aged whiskey. It's a matter of priorities.
Click to expand...

I didn't mean to offend you, I was giving you the "why". At 75 yards from a production 22 with run of the mill ammo and a cheapy scope 2.5-3 inches or more would be the norm for a 10 shot group from a rest.
 
JF, I think your missing a point. For all we know, your rifle is capable of tack driving accuracy. Just because you haven't demonstrated sub-minute of angle accuracy doesn't mean it can't do it. You haven't proven one way or another. Try using some high-end ammo and a solid rest and it may well deliver sub-MOA accuracy. Or not.

In fact, most factory bolt-action rifles produced in recent years can deliver close to MOA (~1 inch @ 100 yards) accuracy out of the box if fed decent ammo. To do much better than MOA requires a lot of things to be right. That's why people will spend hundreds of dollars on a custom barrel: an accurate rifle is the sum of a lot of little things, and some of those "little" things are quite expensive. Barrel, action, bedding, scope, mount; a rifle is only as accurate as its least accurate component.
 
I'd qualify that as "...most bolt action centerfire rifles..." Mark. Rimfires at 100 yards are a whole different thing mostly due to drift and ballistic coefficient.
 
Bret, I'm referring to the actual accuracy in MOA of the rifle, not whether the rifle can deliver bullets inside a one inch circle at 100 yards under typical range conditions. Smallbore competition is shot at 50 yards for good reason. I don't think it's unreasonable to expect a new rimfire rifle to do one inch groups at 50 yards with proper ammo.
 
Okay Mark, but 1" at 50 yards is closer to 2 MOA. I think an inch at 50 for a 10 shot group is doing darn good for a run of the mill production rifle that hasn't been tweaked. I see a lot of under 1" groups posted, but they're all 3 shot groups!
 
OK A few years ago I went shopping for a new .22. Reason was is that a group of guys that I get with once or twice a year and I were doing back yard comp shooting. I noticed that some of the guys shooting bolt guns were doing much better than guys with semi's that I know are better shots. So I bench tested my Remington semi against an old Winchester shingle shot bolt gun that I got years ago as a training gun for my kids. Accuracy at a given range was about even but a varying ranges the bolt gun beat the semi hands down mostly due to bullet drop. A semi uses part of the power to blow back the bolt. After 50 yards the semi had a lot more drop than the bolt.

I was looking for a good quality gun because I do a lot of shooting and wanted something that would last. I did some research and got a CZ 452 (CZ USA) sporter with a decent 4x scope. When I went to zero it I dialed it in at a measured 50 YDS. Shooting from a bench, off a rest, 10 round groups you could cover with a dime. I was very pleased! So I decided for the comp shoots (we use 10 gong tgts, 2 1/2" placed from 25 YDS to 125) to zero at 100. Sub MOA 10 round groups. I figured I was just having a real good day. So I shot groups several time over several days......all with the same results. Then I saw an article from a shooter/writer for a gun mag. He described the CZ 452 as "target rifle accuracy from a sporting gun".

For zeroing I use a Lead Sled rest and a bench. I always use this setup for everything when zeroing. I know that I have, within reason taken most of the human factor out of it. Basically all human interaction is sight picture and trigger. After that I know what the gun can do so if I miss I start looking for what I did wrong.

So as others have said, Try it again. The bipod isn't the problem, it's the unsupported butt that's wiggeling around I bet. SO set up where both ends of the gun are supported (not off some rickety table, something solid). Set the scope back to 4 or 5 power. That way you don't see the movement and you are not tempted to chase the cross hairs. Now shoot at least a couple of groups. Don't try to zero, aim dead center bull and shoot. All you are trying to do is see if the gun can shoot a decent group, not where they are hitting on tgt. Once you are confident that the gun holds a good group then zero for what ever range you will be shooting at.

Rick
 
look at a rimfire target, how small is the 10 ring?Thats how small of groups REALLY good target shooters shoot. normal COMPETITION ranges ,are 25 ft, 25 yards,50 yards and 100 yards. one thing to remember,there is about 1000 different brands and loads in 22lr cal. in fact it is one of the most highly developed loads there are.believe it or not if your shooting regular cartridges like you buy at walmart you probably wont get any really good accuracy.
 
(quoted from post at 09:49:25 12/17/12) look at a rimfire target, how small is the 10 ring?Thats how small of groups REALLY good target shooters shoot. normal COMPETITION ranges ,are 25 ft, 25 yards,50 yards and 100 yards. one thing to remember,there is about 1000 different brands and loads in 22lr cal. in fact it is one of the most highly developed loads there are.believe it or not if your shooting regular cartridges like you buy at walmart you probably wont get any really good accuracy.
Click to expand...

Jack, if off a bench and rest I'll bet you with an unbiast shooter on the trigger, that you will see decent groups with "birick" ammo out to 50 yds and maybe 100 depending on the brand as compared to match grade ammo. Some guns like a certain brand of ammo so a person will need to experiment to find the one that shoots best from thier gun. My CZ shoots sum MOA at 100 yds with Blazer brick ammo. They really have improved quality control.

Rick
 
in to answer your question about group size, my best 22 rifle,is a polish built single shot. at fifty yards i can put a box of shells in 1 1/4" circle off a bench. its not a target rifle ,just a polish military training rifle untuned in any way. the old target rifle i used to have, would do about half that,on a good day with good ammo and no wind. both were probably a whole lot more accurate with a good shooter though.
 
(quoted from post at 10:42:22 12/17/12)
(quoted from post at 09:49:25 12/17/12) look at a rimfire target, how small is the 10 ring?Thats how small of groups REALLY good target shooters shoot. normal COMPETITION ranges ,are 25 ft, 25 yards,50 yards and 100 yards. one thing to remember,there is about 1000 different brands and loads in 22lr cal. in fact it is one of the most highly developed loads there are.believe it or not if your shooting regular cartridges like you buy at walmart you probably wont get any really good accuracy.
Click to expand...

Jack, if off a bench and rest I'll bet you with an unbiast shooter on the trigger, that you will see decent groups with "birick" ammo out to 50 yds and maybe 100 depending on the brand as compared to match grade ammo. Some guns like a certain brand of ammo so a person will need to experiment to find the one that shoots best from thier gun. My CZ shoots sum MOA at 100 yds with Blazer brick ammo. They really have improved quality control.

Rick
Click to expand...

I'm sorry, are you saying that with 22 LR Blazer ammo you shoot 10 shot groups under an inch at 100 yards? The world record for 5-5 shot groups average is .604. You'd better get to the nationals quick, big bucks await.
 
(quoted from post at 16:23:09 12/17/12)
(quoted from post at 10:42:22 12/17/12)
(quoted from post at 09:49:25 12/17/12) look at a rimfire target, how small is the 10 ring?Thats how small of groups REALLY good target shooters shoot. normal COMPETITION ranges ,are 25 ft, 25 yards,50 yards and 100 yards. one thing to remember,there is about 1000 different brands and loads in 22lr cal. in fact it is one of the most highly developed loads there are.believe it or not if your shooting regular cartridges like you buy at walmart you probably wont get any really good accuracy.
Click to expand...

Jack, if off a bench and rest I'll bet you with an unbiast shooter on the trigger, that you will see decent groups with "birick" ammo out to 50 yds and maybe 100 depending on the brand as compared to match grade ammo. Some guns like a certain brand of ammo so a person will need to experiment to find the one that shoots best from thier gun. My CZ shoots sum MOA at 100 yds with Blazer brick ammo. They really have improved quality control.

Rick
Click to expand...

I'm sorry, are you saying that with 22 LR Blazer ammo you shoot 10 shot groups under an inch at 100 yards? The world record for 5-5 shot groups average is .604. You'd better get to the nationals quick, big bucks await.
Click to expand...


Already said that is from a rest with as little human interaction as possible (sight picture and trigger only). I was firing test groups with the rifle to see what the rifle was able to do, not the shooter. Try it sometime with an inexperanced shooter. Show them what the gun is capable of then work with them on their shooting. Great way to give them confidence in the gun! Then work with them to overcome problems with their abilities. IF they know the gun can shoot and they are spreading out shots all over the place you can point out that it isn't the gun and they will listen.

Rick
 
I will repeat my question, are you saying that with 22 LR Blazer ammo you shoot 10 shot groups under an inch at 100 yards? Let me ask it another way- are you saying you can repeatedly shoot 5 shot groups under an inch at 100 yards with your production CZ sporter 22LR and Blazer ammo, or any ammo for that matter? Offhand, benchrest, machine rest, whatever you want. Is that the claim you are making? Fine with me if you are, I just want to make sure I understand you.
 
(quoted from post at 13:54:13 12/18/12) I will repeat my question, are you saying that with 22 LR Blazer ammo you shoot 10 shot groups under an inch at 100 yards? Let me ask it another way- are you saying you can repeatedly shoot 5 shot groups under an inch at 100 yards with your production CZ sporter 22LR and Blazer ammo, or any ammo for that matter? Offhand, benchrest, machine rest, whatever you want. Is that the claim you are making? Fine with me if you are, I just want to make sure I understand you.
Click to expand...

Bret, sorry for the late reply.

Yes, that's what I'm saying. Sun MOA with factory loads. Research the rifle. It's very impressive. From what I understand the barrel is peened which is normally only found on good target/match grade guns. I wasn't aware of that when I got it but learned about it while reading a shooting mag in a waiting room at VA. The artical actually claimed target rifle accuracy from a sporting rifle. I paid 280 for the gun and scope in a pawn shop. It was in fantastic shape and I doubt it had more than one box of ammo through it if that much. Later the same day in a sporting goods store I saw the same gun new on cspecial ar 389 without a scope. Little on the expensive side for a 22 but I'm willing to pay for a good gun.

Rick
 
The I very strongly suggest you get yourself to the 22 Benchrest Nationals since any group under an inch at 100 yards would place in the top shooters. That or get an accurate 100 yard tape and a new micrometer to do your measuring. A 10 mph cross wind at 100 yards will give you almost 5 1/2" of deflection. To be able to judge the wind and shoot even 5 shots under an inch is simply incredible. Considering the variable breezes top ranked competitors have to contend with, I'd say you were a shoe in for a new world record, and with Blazer ammo at that! Call CCI, I'm sure they'll sponsor you.

By "sun MOA" I assume you mean "sub MOA".
 
LOL Bret, Yea, if my typing was as accurate as that .22. My 100 yrd target is measured with a tape from the bench to the target board. It might be off a foot or 2 but it's pretty darn close. My shooting bench is built from plans found on the internet, wood, 4"x4" legs and 2"x6" framing so it's very solid. We set in a low spot that is sheltered. Right now as I'm typing the wind along my shooting lane is 2MPH from the north gusting to 4. I have one of those home weather stations. The Baro pressure is 30.00 and it's 14.8F. If there is any wind above about 5 I don't zero or shoot groups as I'm checking the accuracy of a gun not trying to see if I can compensate for the wind. Next time I do some shooting (about 3 months, it's cold right now) I'll try to remember to shoot some groups with it and post pictures of the target.

Rick
 
Please do. I'm sure the guys that put thousands into their rifles and scopes and spend hundreds testing lots of high end ammo would be very interested in seeing repeatable 10 shot or even 5 shot groups under an inch shot with a production sporter RF and Walmart bulk ammo.
 
(quoted from post at 23:30:11 12/20/12) Please do. I'm sure the guys that put thousands into their rifles and scopes and spend hundreds testing lots of high end ammo would be very interested in seeing repeatable 10 shot or even 5 shot groups under an inch shot with a production sporter RF and Walmart bulk ammo.
Click to expand...

Don't know about the Walmart ammo obviously, being in UK, but I'd expect a 1" group at 100yds to be nothing special for a CZ 452.
Mine is zeroed at 50M (say 55 yds), has a silencer, &amp; will do 3/4" groups all day long with many subsonic rounds (all I use). Eley, RWS &amp; Winchester all do fine (shooting from sitting with the rifle on a stick or over a branch). :D

My scope is a cheapo 3-9X40 (couldn't afford to spend what the gun cost again when the kids were just born) &amp; eyepiece waggles about moving the cross hairs too. I keep meaning to try it properly on a bench with a decent scope to see what the gun will do (this one drives my son nuts!), but the rabbits &amp; the odd fox keep on dying just the same.
 
(quoted from post at 14:58:02 12/21/12)
(quoted from post at 23:30:11 12/20/12) Please do. I'm sure the guys that put thousands into their rifles and scopes and spend hundreds testing lots of high end ammo would be very interested in seeing repeatable 10 shot or even 5 shot groups under an inch shot with a production sporter RF and Walmart bulk ammo.
Click to expand...

Don't know about the Walmart ammo obviously, being in UK, but I'd expect a 1" group at 100yds to be nothing special for a CZ 452.
Mine is zeroed at 50M (say 55 yds), has a silencer, &amp; will do 3/4" groups all day long with many subsonic rounds (all I use). Eley, RWS &amp; Winchester all do fine (shooting from sitting with the rifle on a stick or over a branch). :D

My scope is a cheapo 3-9X40 (couldn't afford to spend what the gun cost again when the kids were just born) &amp; eyepiece waggles about moving the cross hairs too. I keep meaning to try it properly on a bench with a decent scope to see what the gun will do (this one drives my son nuts!), but the rabbits &amp; the odd fox keep on dying just the same.
Click to expand...

Ya know, it's kinda funny that people are spending thousands and thousands on custom rim fires with custom barrels running in the hundreds or more, top dollar, high power scopes and spend years getting so they can judge the wind to break 1" at 100 yards when all they had to do is go buy a CZ and a broken scope with some cheap ammo and they could do it all day long regardless of the wind. Amazing. And not even off a solid bench, but off a stick or branch! And those poor guys can only can do in the .6-.7 area for 5 shots at 100! Yet you can better the records I found for any sporter weight rifle shooting 5 at 50yds!

I don't know if I mentioned it, but I'm talking 10 shots groups, not ten 1 shot groups. :roll: I really think you guys need to learn how to measure a group. If you are still convinced you're shooting like you claim, then there are all sorts of postal matches you can enter and surely clean house in.
 
JF in CT,

There is some good suggestions given here, especially about the ammo and how to hold the gun on the bench with sandbags. (Ignore all the b.s.in the other replys). One thing that has not been addressed is the barrel. Since it is used, you may want to take a look at the crown(muzzle). One that has been damaged can greatly affect accuracy. Target barrels will usually have a recessed crown to help protect it. Also, if the previous owner of the barrel, cleaned it by running the cleaning rod down from the muzzle, that can over time cause damage. Helping out at a sight-in day one time long ago, someone brought in a pump or semi-auto Remington which can only be cleaned from the muzzle, and his shots were keyholing at 25 yards. The rifling had been so badly worn away that the bullets were tumbling. If non of the other suggestions help with accuracy, you could try and remove a few inches of the barrel and then recrown it. Note that all rifle barrels need to be AT LEAST 16inches long.


Anyway, let us know how things turn out, and there is absolutely nothing wrong with liking to build more than shoot.

Good luck.


(quoted from post at 02:05:46 12/16/12) After reading posts on this site for the last several years I get the impression that a lot of folks out there keep a rifle handy on their tractor to handle gophers and such. While off topic I figured I’d ask a question because I usually get better answers here than on other sites. Hopefully there are some 22 experts out there.
I just hand built up a 22 lr target rifle (my second attempt) out of a combination of old and new parts. I read that most agree that 75 yds is the best distance to zero in on. My question is; what would be considered good groups at that distance? With the scope at the maximum 9 power I’m seeing my own heart beats moving the cross hairs (I tried stopping them but each time I did I passed out…just joking). I’m seeing 3.5” groups at that distance just with the bipod (I probably need a bench rest) but I have no idea if that is considered reasonable or not. Any opinions?
a92738.jpg
Click to expand...
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

J
OT. Now I've done it...
Replies
11
Views
1K
dlbuck
D
J
OT; I've created a monster
2
Replies
27
Views
3K
JF in MI
J
R
Mexican 22 ammo
Replies
2
Views
995
old
O
J
OT; 22 LR cal groups revisited
Replies
16
Views
3K
Bret4207
B
J
Re: OT 22 lr cal target groups?
Replies
0
Views
292
JF in MI
J
Tractor Parts Tractor Manuals

We sell tractor parts! We have the parts you need to repair your tractor - the right parts. Our low prices and years of research make us your best choice when you need parts. Shop Online Today.

Copyright © 1997-2024 Yesterday's Tractor Co.

All Rights Reserved. Reproduction of any part of this website, including design and content, without written permission is strictly prohibited. Trade Marks and Trade Names contained and used in this Website are those of others, and are used in this Website in a descriptive sense to refer to the products of others. Use of this Web site constitutes acceptance of our User Agreement and Privacy Policy TRADEMARK DISCLAIMER: Tradenames and Trademarks referred to within Yesterday's Tractor Co. products and within the Yesterday's Tractor Co. websites are the property of their respective trademark holders. None of these trademark holders are affiliated with Yesterday's Tractor Co., our products, or our website nor are we sponsored by them. John Deere and its logos are the registered trademarks of the John Deere Corporation. Agco, Agco Allis, White, Massey Ferguson and their logos are the registered trademarks of AGCO Corporation. Case, Case-IH, Farmall, International Harvester, New Holland and their logos are registered trademarks of CNH Global N.V.

Yesterday's Tractors - Antique Tractor Headquarters
Website Accessibility Policy

Back
Top