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End of the diesel pickup truck

B

buickanddeere

Well-known Member
GM just released the 2014 pickup with a direct injection 4.3, 5.3 and 6.2 Ecotec3 engines.
Mighty few people who honestly do the math can justify a diesel now.
 
Yep, we have 2 diesel pickups, a '99 Ford and a '00 Dodge- love them, but diesel is now 62 cents a gallon higher than gas. I think you're right, and I haven't even "done the math". But we'll keep what we've got, because we're on the declining side of 60, and couldn't afford a new one, of whatever stripe.
 
My truck is a 2011 3500, with diesel. I tow every day, up & down hills. The diesel simply handles the load with ease. Lots of torque for climbing/pulling, and engine brake for going back down. Pulling these hills is hard on a gasser. The diesel likes it. And will outlast/outperform a gasser when it comes to towing. The down side is; they are expensive to buy. And no savings to operate.
 
Didn't the tier 4 Def stuff already take care of that?

Mix ehaust gasses, saltwater, and computer sensors together, and who would want to own such a setup beyond a lease period, sure won't see any of them on the road 20 years from now. And that was the beauty of the diesel, it used to last forever if you didn't live up here in the rust zone where the body rusts off the engine long before the engine wears out.

--->Paul
 
It"s more a matter of "want" rather than "justify". If you"re towing 16,000# like I used to a diesel makes sense. Now that I only tow a maximum 9,000# I sold the diesel and bought a gas truck - tows every bit as good as a diesel at that weight.

The EPA has made diesel pickups pretty hard to live with. Lots of maintenance, high fuel cost, expensive repairs, and high initial cost. But, some people just want one and I guess they can spend their money (or borrowed money) how they want.
 
That's funny. :)

Don't go to any sales barns or farm auctions or farmer coop meetings in Minnesota, they figured out a roadblock check in those areas pays off real well for the state. :)

On a serious note, I wonder how those using cooking oil or lp deal with the tax issue - I mean, what is the official way to make that all legal and proper?

--->Paul
 
I didn't even know chevy made a pickup! Still bet it doesn't sound as good as my 5.9 with a straight pipe. Just hauled some cattle with it, think I will keep it for awhile
 
Neighbor had a V10 gas in a Dodge.

It pulled pretty darn good. It was thirsty but pulled hard.

Maybe the V10 will make a come back.

Gary
 
The federales have just about destroyed the diesel LT market.

They are now working on the tractor market.

Dean
 

Stepside ??

12886.jpg


Or Flairside???

12887.jpg
 
you got the answer TORQUE that's the big difference between a gas burner and a diesel, we have 2 1-ton chevrolets one is 350 gas other is a 6.5 turbo both in good shape,both trucks at different times are used to haul same 2 water tanks 260 gal a piece,a pump and around 50 gal of chemicals and tow a tandem trailer loaded with a 50 hp tractor with a 125 gal sprayer, one advantage the diesel has it's an automatic,the diesel will roll right off with the load with ease, the gas truck will get the nervous trembles and stays in a strain, for heavy use the diesel far surpasses the gas,i can remember when gas powered tractor trailers were plentiful what went with them if a diesel has very little advantage or gas,we used a 3500 duramax crew cab pickup on the job the round trip it was run on averaged 30 gal of fuel it got replaced by a 3500 crew cab 1-ton 6.0 gas it used 45 gal to run the same trip
 
buickanddeere: Buy what ever you want to drive and I will buy what I want to drive. I own four Dodge diesel pickups. The oldest I bought brand new in 1990. I have kept it in good repair and had the body painted and repaired twice. It just turned over 469,000 miles and I think I will get many more out of it. It is a full one ton single wheel truck. It has had the heck ran out of it and it will still get 18-20 MPG running around town and throw a 14k trailer on it and it will still get 12 MPG. Try that with any brand of gas truck at that time. You would be on your second or third engine and the fuel cost would be double.

The gas trucks run real nice but you can't pass a gas station with them when pulling. My son has a Chevy 6.0 liter gas truck. It gets 12 MPG empty. Put the 14K trailer I was talking about on it and it gets 6-7 MPG. You can't afford to drive it.

There will still be diesel pickup trucks out there. The value of the used will go up and there will be conversions to put them in the newer bodies. So I would not get too excited all the talk.
 
(quoted from post at 21:27:00 12/13/12) you got the answer TORQUE that's the big difference between a gas burner and a diesel, we have 2 1-ton chevrolets one is 350 gas other is a 6.5 turbo both in good shape,both trucks at different times are used to haul same 2 water tanks 260 gal a piece,a pump and around 50 gal of chemicals and tow a tandem trailer loaded with a 50 hp tractor with a 125 gal sprayer, one advantage the diesel has it's an automatic,the diesel will roll right off with the load with ease, the gas truck will get the nervous trembles and stays in a strain, for heavy use the diesel far surpasses the gas,i can remember when gas powered tractor trailers were plentiful what went with them if a diesel has very little advantage or gas,we used a 3500 duramax crew cab pickup on the job the round trip it was run on averaged 30 gal of fuel it got replaced by a 3500 crew cab 1-ton 6.0 gas it used 45 gal to run the same trip
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Have no idea why you are dragging a pos 1986 or earlier carbureted 350 into the conversation?
Talking about 2007 and later diesels and direct injection gassers.
You are living 3 decades in the past.
 
I have drove a little 3.5? direct-injection Ford. Two turbo's. Has low end torque like a diesel. Rated 360 hp. will run with 400 hp NA gas motors. Google it. Lots of youtube where it is drag racing and pulling trailers. 11500 lb. for a 1/2 ton. Yes my everyday truck is a 91 Dodge Cummins. I'm kinda attached to it. But never again, Diesel is to high. Probably a Natural Gasser is in our future. Vic
 
there will always be a need for diesel pickups, while it may fall out of favor with the soccer mommy set or the urban office worker who is just seeking a status symbol due to the high cost up front, and the high price of diesel fuel, it will still the the choice of those of us who need a truck to be a truck, haul heavy loads, and pull loads even heavier, up to the point of having use a bigger truck , the reason is torque, a gasser just cant maintain the pulling power up a long grade like a diesel can, although a gas pickup is cheaper all around to buy and operate if you dont need the pulling power, just depends on why a person needs a pickup truck i guess, i have a bunch of trucks,2 with 350's 2,454's and a 5.9 Cummings the Cummings pulls harder than any of them,and gets 3 times the fuel millage doing it, while i will not buy any computer controlled vehicle, [ constant problems, and large repair bills with a variety of company owned newer trucks makes me believe the best thing about new trucks is not owning one myself] i can say that i own enough of a variety of older trucks to do some testing between gas and diesels
 
And yet in Europe, you'd be hard pressed to find any kind of truck, no matter how small that's not diesel. Even a lot of the cars are available as diesels. If I was towing anything more than a seadoo, on a regular basis, I'd have a diesel. Our old '99 diesel Savana runs up hills in high, without barely any extra prodding, while our new 6.0 Silverado has to drop 2 gears and needs constant throttle increase just to maintain the speed limit on the very same hill. If it really has to work on a weekly basis, than diesel is what I'd want.
 
i am just grass green here! i have always wanted to build one of these, i even had a w900A needle nose to build it out of, but a man offered me a bunch of money for the kw and i sold it, but it just dont get nicer than these for a custom pickup truck
 
(quoted from post at 21:50:09 12/13/12) buickanddeere: Buy what ever you want to drive and I will buy what I want to drive. I own four Dodge diesel pickups. The oldest I bought brand new in 1990. I have kept it in good repair and had the body painted and repaired twice. It just turned over 469,000 miles and I think I will get many more out of it. It is a full one ton single wheel truck. It has had the heck ran out of it and it will still get 18-20 MPG running around town and throw a 14k trailer on it and it will still get 12 MPG. Try that with any brand of gas truck at that time. You would be on your second or third engine and the fuel cost would be double.

The gas trucks run real nice but you can't pass a gas station with them when pulling. My son has a Chevy 6.0 liter gas truck. It gets 12 MPG empty. Put the 14K trailer I was talking about on it and it gets 6-7 MPG. You can't afford to drive

There will still be diesel pickup trucks out there. The value of the used will go up and there will be conversions to put them in the newer bodies. So I would not get too excited all the talk.
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I recall earlier conversations about that 6.0L that has something fundamentally wrong with it that the local shops can't figure out.
Around here 1990 vehicles were scrapped years ago.
Pickups, diesel of gas only spend a small fraction of their life actually towing. The 5 or 10 thousand miles of trailer distance per 100 thousand of truck distance doesn't pay for the diesel option. Diesel service or the high fuel prices at the pumps.
The conversation is about post 2007 diesels and direct injection GM gasser pickups.
 
Your 99 Savannah is equipped with a 4 speed rather than a 6 speed transmission and is geared much shorter. Any such comparisons are meaningless.

Dean
 
Bingo.

The diesel pickup market has fallen off of the cliff.

Ask anyone who sells them.

Dean
 
(quoted from post at 19:22:26 12/13/12) And yet in Europe, you'd be hard pressed to find any kind of truck, no matter how small that's not diesel. Even a lot of the cars are available as diesels. If I was towing anything more than a seadoo, on a regular basis, I'd have a diesel. Our old '99 diesel Savana runs up hills in high, without barely any extra prodding, while our new 6.0 Silverado has to drop 2 gears and needs constant throttle increase just to maintain the speed limit on the very same hill. If it really has to work on a weekly basis, than diesel is what I'd want.
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Diesel is quite a bit cheaper than gas in Europe.
 
I plan on keeping my diesel, just so you can continue to get drunk and post your drivel! When you make my payments, and my fuel bill, you can tell me what to drive!
 
So the gas powered farm tractor will come back? Some think so! Hmmmmmmmmmmm how about a retro 4020 powershift gas injected??? BTW drive a 1998 diesel GM 3/4 ton 2WD Bought it two years back,$4000. Have only put about 40,000 km on it, several oil changes and two new tires. More truck than I need? Maybe. Truck that will get in and work when I need it? Absolutly! Resale? don't care...if it lasts like the 1989 that preceded it (+500,000km) I'll drive it till it won't go anymore.
And the previous owner looked after all that wonderful depreciation for me!
 
on man! hmm i just happen to know where there is a b model sitting, it ran before the new owner took it apart to restore it.... in 1992...
 
A tremendous amount of R&D money in the US has gone into improving fuel efficiencies of gasoline engines. Americans have a history of thumbing their noses at diesel engines for cars and pickup trucks. Thanks in no small part to Generally screwed up Motors (GM). Thereby the emphasis, in the US, on gas engines. The gasoline engine had much, much, room for improvement, so, in a way , it was relatively easy to vastly improve its efficiency. We are the benefactors of this but only one thing stands in my way. That being General Motors track record. They've produced a lot of great stuff and almost as much junk. In my humble opinion anyway. I'll be waiting, and watching. I honestly hope they have some winners coming along soon.(;>))
 
Anybody that actually does work with a truck can do the math and justify a diesel.
Less fuel per horsepower, longer engine life.
I think you are not very well informed. You look at the rated HP and do not look at the RPM it is rated at.
While an F150 ford may have 350 hp, it is at an unusable rpm with a very high rpm for rated torque.
A diesel will have its peak tourque at below highway speed. That is what does the real work.
I think you shold not look at the crap that GM (Government Moters} is producing.
 
Don't know about rest of Europe, but in the UK diesel is more expesive than gas, and has been for 10 years or more... hasn't stopped my brother driving a v6 diesel audi...
 
(quoted from post at 22:21:47 12/13/12) there will always be a need for diesel pickups, while it may fall out of favor with the soccer mommy set or the urban office worker who is just seeking a status symbol due to the high cost up front, and the high price of diesel fuel, it will still the the choice of those of us who need a truck to be a truck, haul heavy loads, and pull loads even heavier, up to the point of having use a bigger truck , the reason is torque, a gasser just cant maintain the pulling power up a long grade like a diesel can, although a gas pickup is cheaper all around to buy and operate if you dont need the pulling power, just depends on why a person needs a pickup truck i guess, i have a bunch of trucks,2 with 350's 2,454's and a 5.9 Cummings the Cummings pulls harder than any of them,and gets 3 times the fuel millage doing it, while i will not buy any computer controlled vehicle, [ constant problems, and large repair bills with a variety of company owned newer trucks makes me believe the best thing about new trucks is not owning one myself] i can say that i own enough of a variety of older trucks to do some testing between gas and diesels
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Well duh................how do you compare a 5.9 to a 350 or 454 of the 1980's?
Compare the 5.9 to the direct injection Ecotech3 engines this post in 2012 is talking about.
 
(quoted from post at 22:22:26 12/13/12) And yet in Europe, you'd be hard pressed to find any kind of truck, no matter how small that's not diesel. Even a lot of the cars are available as diesels. If I was towing anything more than a seadoo, on a regular basis, I'd have a diesel. Our old '99 diesel Savana runs up hills in high, without barely any extra prodding, while our new 6.0 Silverado has to drop 2 gears and needs constant throttle increase just to maintain the speed limit on the very same hill. If it really has to work on a weekly basis, than diesel is what I'd want.
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Get back to us on the price of European diesel and European gasoline. You might discover where there is a diesel vehicle market in Europe.
So what if the gasser down shifts? No harm done, it's supposed to.
 
I wish I had kept the photo. Yes peterbuilt did build a pickup. Many years ago(30) they built a 1 of for a corprate big shot who was retiring.
 
"The conversation is about post 2007 diesels and direct injection GM gasser pickups."
If I understand, you are saying the new gasser will match or surpass the performance of newer diesel pick ups of today. Do you think it will grow to the point of being equal to bigger rigs or possibly gas engines being used in tractors again?
 
"And will outlast/outperform a gasser when it comes to towing."
How do you think it will compare to the new gasser B&D is talking about?
 
(quoted from post at 22:55:54 12/13/12) So the gas powered farm tractor will come back? Some think so! Hmmmmmmmmmmm how about a retro 4020 powershift gas injected??? BTW drive a 1998 diesel GM 3/4 ton 2WD Bought it two years back,$4000. Have only put about 40,000 km on it, several oil changes and two new tires. More truck than I need? Maybe. Truck that will get in and work when I need it? Absolutely! Resale? don't care...if it lasts like the 1989 that preceded it (+500,000km) I'll drive it till it won't go anymore.
And the previous owner looked after all that wonderful depreciation for me!
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Do you know the different between light duty and heavy continuous duty is? A pickup is a light duty application. A farm tractor, marine propulsion, irrigation pump or utility gen set is HD. The truck operates most of the time idling and at less than 20% of rated power. And engine that spends it's life at 50 to 100% power is a different application.

Why are you comparing a pre 2007 diesel with pre low sulphur pump prices? This is about post 2007 emissions diesels and the direct injection gassers in the 2014 model year.
Around here the 1990's vehicles are either in the scrap yard or on their way there.
 
(quoted from post at 23:11:22 12/13/12) Anybody that actually does work with a truck can do the math and justify a diesel.
Less fuel per horsepower, longer engine life.
I think you are not very well informed. You look at the rated HP and do not look at the RPM it is rated at.
While an F150 ford may have 350 hp, it is at an unusable rpm with a very high rpm for rated torque.
A diesel will have its peak tourque at below highway speed. That is what does the real work.
I think you shold not look at the crap that GM (Government Moters} is producing.
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Look at engine life of the post 2007 diesel engines vs the port injection and direct injection gassers.
With the more expensive diesel fuel, more expensive scheduled diesel service and breakdown of the more complex and higher stressed diesel.
The gasser goes 300,000+ miles with just filters, oil changes, a couple of fan belts and three sets of spark plugs. No post 2007 diesel can do that.
 
Interesting thought, and it may.

As I stated below, the federales have just about destroyed the diesel LT market and are now working on the tractor market.

Stay tuned.

Dean
 
In a lot of cases, yes... I think the emission crap will sort out on the diesel's before too long tho... once they smarten up and just go with urea. That's more or less proving itself to be not a big deal... and most engines will meet Tier 4 final on urea alone without EGR. If they can get variable geometry turbo's and relax a bit on particulate filters it'll work out.
When DDEC1 came out 25 years ago there were a lot of naysayers then too.


Rod
 
Regular gas here in Trinidad Tobago, west Indies is U$1.70 a gallon, diesel is 90 cents US a gallon. All the pickups are diesel as are most vans and some cars. I doubt the dealers could sell a gas engined pickup.
 
Well B&D I would guess that my 2010 Dodge diesel pickup would qualify me to get into the discussion. Your thoughts of 10-15% of the time trailering just shows that you have not been around most of the farms around here.

The 1998 Dodge diesel pickup I have is hooked to the cattle trailer just about all of the time. Load that trailer down with 12 fat steers and go to town with a payload of 18000 lbs plus the trailer. Those gas trucks will puke their guts up in less than 100K.

The 1990 Dodge is still around because it is a diesel. If it was a gas it would have already been junked. Dodge has not made a gas pickup engine worth spit ever. I have owned a few of them. Plus that 1990 Pickup was the only thing I pull my dauled tandem goose neck with. That trailer gets traded every five years and usually has 50-60K on it by the hub odometer.

The Chevy 6.0 that I was talking about in this post is not the one we have problems with. That piece of crap gets even worst mileage. I guess I should say it did. He traded it for a 2010 Dodge diesel. That truck pulls his camper better and uses half the fuel.

I looked up several articles on Chevy's truck line up. It is driven by cost savings on design rather than any thing else. I think that they will loose market share with Ford and Dodge having new motors in their pickups. The Chevy line up is just a rehash of their earlier motors. They have up dated the interiors.

Don't take this as Chevy bashing. I like how the Chevy trucks drive and handle but I will not buy another Government Motors vehicle after the screwing I got on my GM bonds. I really hope they fall flat on their face and the United Auto worked get to eat their pensions like they screwed over the bond holders. Let them take the same pennies on the dollar and I will be happy.
 
As B&D stated some of you need to stop thinking of the gassers of old with carbs, TBI, or even MPFI. These are direct injection motors that are capable of healthy numbers....

Take the ford F150 3.5L Eco Boost motor for example. It is a DI turbo'd gasser that puts out close to 400lbft of torque at just over 2k RPMs. And with proper gearing and torque converter specs that works perfect for moving a load.

Now is that close to say a 6.7L cummins...? No way. But the eco boost motor has almost 1/2 the displacement.

Given time and R&D I think in the near future gassers will be competitive with their diesel counterparts, and also be cheaper to purchase, own, service, and maintain....
 
I will say the US, or shall I say Kalifornia has bit us in the foot a bit. Here is the deal, its not just about diesel pickups.

1. No new power plants.
Brown outs are okay. The masses don't want a new powerplant in their backyard.

2. No powerlines or windturbines.
Once again the masses don't want anything interfering with their view of their perfect lives.

3. Society wants everything for nothing. We have spoke to this point at length already.

Diesel pickups won't be around anymore in the US, but remember, the US moves on diesel fuel. The trains and large trucks will be running diesel. It is just too expensive on a personal level.

Oh, and the commercial transportation folks will be sure to pass the cost on to YOU, the Amazon, Walmart and Ebay shopper.
 
I don't know. What I do know is that the gassers shift down, and rev higher, causing the exaust gasses to get much hotter. Transmission also gets a lot hotter. Everything gets much hotter. When I pull hills (Now I'm talking towing here) with a gasser, I can smell the heat, and hear the metal expanding/contracting. Transmission temps reaching 200*+, and that's not pushing it. It's the heat that is the killer. I can't believe GM (or any others) are making a gasser that won't get HOT towing hills. My diesel shifts up pulling the same hills, with the same loads. Transmission temps are around 130* - 140*. No hot smell, etc.. A night & day difference. It will float up the hills, not shift down & rev. Why do you think the choice for big rigs is diesel? Diesels rev less, run cooler, and have way more torque. EXAMPLE: A GM 6.0 has around 350 foot pounds of torque. My 2011 Duramax has 765 foot pounds of torque. That's more than double the torque. A diesel engine will out live a gasser 3 to 4 times. They get better milage than a gasser doing the same job. The fuel cost more now, so that's kind of a wash.
 
(quoted from post at 16:44:46 12/13/12) As long as there are "short" guys that need to compensate they will sell diesel pick ups!
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HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAA! :lol: :lol: :lol: Man, ain't that the truth!!! 90% of the one ton dually diesels I see are driven by smaller guys that never put anything bigger than a set of golf clubs in the back or maybe they tow an ATV or jet ski. The rest belong to farmers and cattle truckers.

My wife always said big trucks/loud pipes are a "compensation" tool.
 
(quoted from post at 23:16:23 12/13/12) I don't know. What I do know is that the gassers shift down, and rev higher, causing the exaust gasses to get much hotter. Transmission also gets a lot hotter. Everything gets much hotter. When I pull hills (Now I'm talking towing here) with a gasser, I can smell the heat, and hear the metal expanding/contracting. Transmission temps reaching 200*+, and that's not pushing it. It's the heat that is the killer. I can't believe GM (or any others) are making a gasser that won't get HOT towing hills. My diesel shifts up pulling the same hills, with the same loads. Transmission temps are around 130* - 140*. No hot smell, etc.. A night & day difference. It will float up the hills, not shift down & rev. Why do you think the choice for big rigs is diesel? Diesels rev less, run cooler, and have way more torque. EXAMPLE: A GM 6.0 has around 350 foot pounds of torque. My 2011 Duramax has 765 foot pounds of torque. That's more than double the torque. A diesel engine will out live a gasser 3 to 4 times. They get better milage than a gasser doing the same job. The fuel cost more now, so that's kind of a wash.
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A transmission doesn't know what's in front of it. If you find gas trannies getting hot, that's a tranny issue, not a function of the engine.
 
I don't know where everyone here lives, but in my area 1990 trucks are not all "in the scrap yard". Most people in my area can't even dream of going out and smacking down $40-60K on a brand new truck. A lot of cattle in my area are trucked by older trucks, it's just an economic factor. Not many tractors around here less than 10-15 years old either.
 
Nothing like slaying a sacred cow to get the old pharts all fired up.

Something that's often missed when comparing diesel and gas mileage is the different energy content of the two fuels. A diesel has to beat gasoline mpg by about ten percent just to "break even". That and the corresponding difference in fuel prices eliminate much of the diesel advantage.

As far as torque versus rpm, it's easier to build a gas engine with high low-end torque than it is to build a diesel that will rev up to gas engine speeds. So you need to couple a diesel engine to a transmission with a lot of gears to take advantage of that torque.

BTW, why is it that diesel pickup owners insist on letting their engines idle when they go into the store to buy a pack of cigarettes? Are they really that hard to get restarted? And why, even if they eventually shut the thing down, do they insist on letting it idle for ten minutes in the parking lot? I assume they're compensating for some undersized part of their anatomy, since there's no other reason to make people around you smell and hear your diesel engine clattering away.
 
(quoted from post at 06:01:11 12/14/12)

Don't take this as Chevy bashing. I like how the Chevy trucks drive and handle but I will not buy another Government Motors vehicle after the screwing I got on my GM bonds. I really hope they fall flat on their face and the United Auto worked get to eat their pensions like they screwed over the bond holders. Let them take the same pennies on the dollar and I will be happy.
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I currently have a 6.0 Silverado 2500, got it pretty cheap from the in-laws when they didn't need it to tow a 30' camping trailer. It's fine for my small 16' livestock trailer, but I'd never buy one new from Gov. Motors. A good friend's mother took a screwing like JD Seller did on GM bonds she was living on and he inherited nothing from it like his mother and father intended. Maybe the recent right to work law in MI will put it to the UAW enough that they will get what they deserve. Can't force the workers to contribute to the political slush fund their dues have become.
 
(quoted from post at 00:58:10 12/14/12) Regular gas here in Trinidad Tobago, west Indies is U$1.70 a gallon, diesel is 90 cents US a gallon. All the pickups are diesel as are most vans and some cars. I doubt the dealers could sell a gas engined pickup.
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What is the national average price of gasoline and diesel in the US? Talking major market share instead of a country that has fewer vehicles than the state of Michigan.
 
(quoted from post at 01:01:11 12/14/12) Well B&D I would guess that my 2010 Dodge diesel pickup would qualify me to get into the discussion. Your thoughts of 10-15% of the time trailering just shows that you have not been around most of the farms around here.

The 1998 Dodge diesel pickup I have is hooked to the cattle trailer just about all of the time. Load that trailer down with 12 fat steers and go to town with a payload of 18000 lbs plus the trailer. Those gas trucks will puke their guts up in less than 100K.

The 1990 Dodge is still around because it is a diesel. If it was a gas it would have already been junked. Dodge has not made a gas pickup engine worth spit ever. I have owned a few of them. Plus that 1990 Pickup was the only thing I pull my dauled tandem goose neck with. That trailer gets traded every five years and usually has 50-60K on it by the hub odometer.

The Chevy 6.0 that I was talking about in this post is not the one we have problems with. That piece of crap gets even worst mileage. I guess I should say it did. He traded it for a 2010 Dodge diesel. That truck pulls his camper better and uses half the fuel.

I looked up several articles on Chevy's truck line up. It is driven by cost savings on design rather than any thing else. I think that they will loose market share with Ford and Dodge having new motors in their pickups. The Chevy line up is just a rehash of their earlier motors. They have up dated the interiors.

Don't take this as Chevy bashing. I like how the Chevy trucks drive and handle but I will not buy another Government Motors vehicle after the screwing I got on my GM bonds. I really hope they fall flat on their face and the United Auto worked get to eat their pensions like they screwed over the bond holders. Let them take the same pennies on the dollar and I will be happy.
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That is
 
I don't follow your logic on how diesel has to beat gasoline figuers by 10% just to break even... Diesel fuel has a higher BTU content than gasoline. Then traditionally a diesel engine had about 10% greater thermal efficiency to start with... The offset was that maintenance costs a bit more and the purchase price was higher...
If these new direct inject gas engines gain considerable efficiency then that will change the balance.

As far as why people let diesel's idle... Number one... A turbo engine should idle 3-5 minutes before shutdown if it's been pulling. This to allow the turbo time to spool down and temperatures in the head and manifold to stabilize. It's only in more recent times that this has not been specifically recomended... seemingly at the continous expense of 3500 dollar turbo's.
The other factor... when you've changed enough starters or dealt with engines that barely had enough starter.... or engines that would crank OK cold but not when they're hot... then you'll understand why so many people let diesel's idle. A little bit of idle is better than a tow home.

Rod
 
What does a direct-injected gas engine got to do with a diesel? Gasoline has less BTU energy per gallon, and a gas engine has less mechanical compression ratio. Gas is spark ignition and diesel is compression-ignition.

Are you saying the new gas trucks - pulling a heavily loaded trailer are beating diesels in fuel mileage? Even with gasoline being cheaper per volume(US) or temperature-compensated-gallon (Canada) - I doubt they beat diesels in actual fuel cost per mile.

If so, I'd like to see the specs. My 92 Dodge diesel can tow an 8000 lb. trailer at 65 MPH and get 15-16 MPG.

GM had been working on an actual diesel engine that runs on gasoline. Compression ignition and 18 to 1 compression ratio. I think they gave up though.
 
I think this is correct. Unless you really use a new diesel pickup for hauling and towing every day its just not worth it. I think its funny that most of the older diesel trucks on the road (1990-2005) get double or almost double the fuel milage than what a new one does because of all the EPA crap on them. I'm looking to get an 07-09 6.7 dodge and junk the emission mess on it and take care of it for many years to come. I hate the look of all of the new trucks out now so I don't intend on buying one any time soon. I know one day I'll have to have something newer but by then it will probably end up being a gasser as bad as I hate to say it.

Chris
 
After, say pulling my trailer home up hill, I leave my Diesel truck idling for a few minutes, it prevents the oil from galling up on the turbo bearings, so you let it idle to cool down. Thus preventing turbo failure. Same with a horse, you don't take a horse that just ran a mile and a quarter and just put her back in the stall, you have To hot walk it to cool them down! Lol
 
That is what he is saying - especially with the other costs that you have to factor in when running a diesel.
 
(quoted from post at 01:01:11 12/14/12) Well B&D I would guess that my 2010 Dodge diesel pickup would qualify me to get into the discussion. Your thoughts of 10-15% of the time trailering just shows that you have not been around most of the farms around here.

The 1998 Dodge diesel pickup I have is hooked to the cattle trailer just about all of the time. Load that trailer down with 12 fat steers and go to town with a payload of 18000 lbs plus the trailer. Those gas trucks will puke their guts up in less than 100K.

The 1990 Dodge is still around because it is a diesel. If it was a gas it would have already been junked. Dodge has not made a gas pickup engine worth spit ever. I have owned a few of them. Plus that 1990 Pickup was the only thing I pull my dauled tandem goose neck with. That trailer gets traded every five years and usually has 50-60K on it by the hub odometer.

The Chevy 6.0 that I was talking about in this post is not the one we have problems with. That piece of crap gets even worst mileage. I guess I should say it did. He traded it for a 2010 Dodge diesel. That truck pulls his camper better and uses half the fuel.

I looked up several articles on Chevy's truck line up. It is driven by cost savings on design rather than any thing else. I think that they will loose market share with Ford and Dodge having new motors in their pickups. The Chevy line up is just a rehash of their earlier motors. They have up dated the interiors.

Don't take this as Chevy bashing. I like how the Chevy trucks drive and handle but I will not buy another Government Motors vehicle after the screwing I got on my GM bonds. I really hope they fall flat on their face and the United Auto worked get to eat their pensions like they screwed over the bond holders. Let them take the same pennies on the dollar and I will be happy.
Click to expand...

That is one or two two trucks out of your fleet or vehicles. You do realize of all the diesel pickups on the road. Your 1990 and it's regular usage on the trailer. Is a very small % of the miles diesel pickups travel as a whole travel in North America.
 
I would be scared to death of any Ford engine. Their track record is abysmal on making a motor with new design work. Heck even their old designed motors are junk now. Lets have a short list: The 4.0 with cam chain guides that will go bad in less than 80K. The 5.4 motors that would shot out the spark plugs in under 100K. The 6.0 diesel motor that many did not run 15K before needing major repairs.

So that 3.5L Eco Boost motor would be like playing Russian roulette on whether or not it will hold up. I am betting on it not. Ford just does not seem to be able to design a motor.
 
according to you guys a short peter, it does work though, I have offspring to prove it, it's been used in several differen't holes with no complaints, I have said this before bd. I have never met a Canadian that I didn't like but I think I might make an exception for you.
 
ecotec.. sounds like where i get to pay a 900 dollar a month payment on a truck which sits in the shop while some kid changes parts on it trying to figure out which one is bad, just went thru that with a peterbilt with a 8.3, spent 5 grand in the shop,because some thing wouldnt let it start, i picked up the truck and it made it 40 miles and had to be dragged back, seems they missed a part.. lol i'll keep my old stuff, it just simply sits there and runs
 
Don't forget - that ecoboost is also doing it with less than half the weight sitting over your front tires - wearing out the steering, suspension and tires. Not to mention the extra fuel it takes to move the heavier truck around all the time (a 5.9 Cummins weighs 1100 pounds).

While not as good as a new 6.7 Cummins, it does match or beat the 5.9 12V Cummins that everyone loved and the the 7.3 Power Stroke.
 
If the EPA makes field tractors have the same emissions as highway turcks you might be surprised what happens with the smaller tractors.
 
(quoted from post at 02:16:23 12/14/12) I don't know. What I do know is that the gassers shift down, and rev higher, causing the exaust gasses to get much hotter. Transmission also gets a lot hotter. Everything gets much hotter. When I pull hills (Now I'm talking towing here) with a gasser, I can smell the heat, and hear the metal expanding/contracting. Transmission temps reaching 200*+, and that's not pushing it. It's the heat that is the killer. I can't believe GM (or any others) are making a gasser that won't get HOT towing hills. My diesel shifts up pulling the same hills, with the same loads. Transmission temps are around 130* - 140*. No hot smell, etc.. A night & day difference. It will float up the hills, not shift down & rev. Why do you think the choice for big rigs is diesel? Diesels rev less, run cooler, and have way more torque. EXAMPLE: A GM 6.0 has around 350 foot pounds of torque. My 2011 Duramax has 765 foot pounds of torque. That's more than double the torque. A diesel engine will out live a gasser 3 to 4 times. They get better milage than a gasser doing the same job. The fuel cost more now, so that's kind of a wash.
Click to expand...

Apparently you have never watched the egt on a diesel towing a load and are using your nose as a calibrated temperature measuring tool.
A diesel outlasting a gasser is a complete total frabrication and a lie. gassers with 300,000 + miles are the norm and running fine with a totally rusted and rotten frame and body. Try a post 2007 diesel to 300,000 and get back to use on the regular service costs and breakdown repairs. In order to renew the road license that emissions equipment has to be functional and pass the sniff test in many jurisdictions.
Torque? Torque doesn't do work. HP does work. A diesel won't rev because valve timing is limited and thus rpms. As the diesel won't clear the valves at TDC if they are open . Increasing the size of the valve relief notches in the pistons lowers the compression and the engine won't cold start.
With the price of diesel vs gasoline. The truck has to achieve how much better mileage just to break even on the fuel costs?
How much fuel has to be saved to pay for the diesel option and diesel service / repair costs ?
 
or maybe because when I bought mine there wasn't anything else that would pull what I wanted to pull at interstate speeds, keep sitting behind your computer spanking your monkey i will use mine for what it was intended for
 
The only people I ever see saying how gassers are superior to diesels in pickups are the folks that bought a gasser and now want to justify their poor decision or being too tighwadded to buy the diesel.I've owned both and diesels are superior in just about every way in my experience.
 
The Ford engine has been out since the 2007 model year. It's not new any more.


Given what the EPA has in store for the American public I doubt you'll be able to get a V8 engine in a car or light truck in the next couple years. About 2016 it will be V6s or I4s for everyone.

Ford's new 5.0 and and 6.2 had a lot of corners cut at the end of their design when the new regulations were announced. Ford knew they wouldn't be able to recoup their R&D expenses with such a short life.
 
If trying to factor in costs of a new one - gas or diesel it's nonsense to me. A new diesel truck can easily cost $60,000. I would not pay $10,000 for any new vehicle car, truck, gas, or diesel.
 
(quoted from post at 16:16:30 12/13/12) GM just released the 2014 pickup with a direct injection 4.3, 5.3 and 6.2 Ecotec3 engines.
Mighty few people who honestly do the math can justify a diesel now.
Click to expand...

I bought a HD 1/2 ton GMC new in 2004. 5.3 gasser. Lost 1 tranny at 80K and replaced that with an upgarded one. Coming up on 200K and we pull a 10K trailer with it off and on. Great truck and I have never had any problems pulling loads in the hills of Western, Pa. It still gets 16mpg too.
Don't need a diesel pushing out Nox emissions like a railroad engine.
 
(quoted from post at 09:28:18 12/14/12) What does a direct-injected gas engine got to do with a diesel? Gasoline has less BTU energy per gallon, and a gas engine has less mechanical compression ratio. Gas is spark ignition and diesel is compression-ignition.

Are you saying the new gas trucks - pulling a heavily loaded trailer are beating diesels in fuel mileage? Even with gasoline being cheaper per volume(US) or temperature-compensated-gallon (Canada) - I doubt they beat diesels in actual fuel cost per mile.

If so, I'd like to see the specs. My 92 Dodge diesel can tow an 8000 lb. trailer at 65 MPH and get 15-16 MPG.

GM had been working on an actual diesel engine that runs on gasoline. Compression ignition and 18 to 1 compression ratio. I think they gave up though.
Click to expand...
We are talking about what the EPA and CAFE has done to the diesel truck and fuel coats from 2007 and later . And compare to the direct injection gas engines in the market now and the new few months. Even the port injection gas engines since 99 run stiff competition against a post 2007 diesel.
 
Let me make sure I'm reading your post correctly. You are claiming you pull a 10,000 lb. trailer at highway speeds with a 5.3 gasser truck and get 16 MPG US, not Canadian gallons ?

Can't say I've done it myself but I've read a lot of test data on fuel mileage and towing and I've seen none that come close to your figure.

I did drive a 5.3 Chevy truck on a flat highway in Michigan -empty and not trailer and got 17 MPG. I doubt it could get even 13 MPG pulling a heavy trailer.

A little 5000 lb. RV with a Toyota 2.4 liter fuel injected four can barely get 16 MPG on gas at 65 MPH.
 
(quoted from post at 09:26:18 12/14/12) I don't follow your logic on how diesel has to beat gasoline figuers by 10% just to break even... Diesel fuel has a higher BTU content than gasoline. Then traditionally a diesel engine had about 10% greater thermal efficiency to start with... The offset was that maintenance costs a bit more and the purchase price was higher...
If these new direct inject gas engines gain considerable efficiency then that will change the balance.

As far as why people let diesel's idle... Number one... A turbo engine should idle 3-5 minutes before shutdown if it's been pulling. This to allow the turbo time to spool down and temperatures in the head and manifold to stabilize. It's only in more recent times that this has not been specifically recomended... seemingly at the continous expense of 3500 dollar turbo's.
The other factor... when you've changed enough starters or dealt with engines that barely had enough starter.... or engines that would crank OK cold but not when they're hot... then you'll understand why so many people let diesel's idle. A little bit of idle is better than a tow home.

Rod
Click to expand...

Another example of how fragile the new diesels have become and the extra cost of servicing them over a gas truck.
 
(quoted from post at 10:20:37 12/14/12) Let me make sure I'm reading your post correctly. You are claiming you pull a 10,000 lb. trailer at highway speeds with a 5.3 gasser truck and get 16 MPG US, not Canadian gallons ?

Can't say I've done it myself but I've read a lot of test data on fuel mileage and towing and I've seen none that come close to your figure.

I did drive a 5.3 Chevy truck on a flat highway in Michigan -empty and not trailer and got 17 MPG. I doubt it could get even 13 MPG pulling a heavy trailer.

A little 5000 lb. RV with a Toyota 2.4 liter fuel injected four can barely get 16 MPG on gas at 65 MPH.
Click to expand...

Doesn't matter if the gasser gets 1 or 2 mpg less while trailering . The cheaper fuel, cheaper service and cheaper up front cost adds up to cheaper cost per mile. Then lets compare when the truck isn't trailering which is the majority.
 
Rod, what I'm saying is that we shouldn't really make MPG comparisons between gas and diesel. Miles per pound of fuel would be a fairer comparison. Or miles per dollar. Maybe kilometers per loonie. Miles per gallon or kilometers per litre is a meaningful comparison only when you're comparing vehicles that use the same fuel.

I assumed the hot start issue had a lot to do with leaving the truck idling. Yes, I understand the danger of shutting down a hot turbo, although most diesel pickups seem to only travel between home and the closest 7-11 store, not much of a chance to get the turbo hot. I'll note for the record that owners of naturally aspirated gas-powered pickups don't worry about either one.
 
(quoted from post at 09:56:44 12/14/12) or maybe because when I bought mine there wasn't anything else that would pull what I wanted to pull at interstate speeds, keep sitting behind your computer spanking your monkey i will use mine for what it was intended for
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Out of "facts" and resorting to name calling ?
 
With that I agree 100%. Many big RV owners are now going back go gas since it's often 20% cheaper by the gallon and no extra urea needs.

I don't drive any of my trucks anymore as "cars." Just for hauling and for just that - I doubt there is a gas truck that comes close with fuel mileage. But with total cost?? I would not buy any new car or truck ever so it matters little to me. The sales-tax alone for a new rig is more then I'd pay total. For the price of a low end new car I could buy another house and rent it out.

If somebody truly cared about fuel mileage and overall cost - just buy a older mechanically injected truck - fix it up - and you'll do fine.

Seems maybe things are going full circle. Early 70s I drove several big-rigs that had gas engines. A Ford cab-over and a Brockway.
 
Not to steal B&D thread, have always wondered why trains should not be ran with electricity using overhead wires as coal mine to power plant in arizona for 110 miles. This could be generated by nukes preferably. However coal can be burnt cleanly if desired. Either way jobes and money stays in north america.Please follow my thinking and do not grade my grammer.
 
Agreed.

LT diesel engines are throw aways as are the gassers.

Given similar maintenance, the gassers and diesels will provide similar service life.

Dean
 
electric motors tend to produce maximum torque close to
zero rpm, with the torque diminishing as rotational speed
rises (due to increasing friction and other constraints).
Reciprocating steam engines can start heavy loads from zero
RPM without, torque is what moves the load.! Do a google
search....,,, that's also why we diesel electric trains,??!
Torque moves the load!
 
I think most of you guys are missing the original point.

With the new direct inject gas engine that produce better power and mileage the diesel truck may be dead. That's the point. If because of cost diesel pickup sales get to the point where it's not profitable to build them they will stop and you will not be able to buy a new one. At that time there will still be diesel tracks out there but in effect they will be dead. That's not claiming that in the long run the gas engine is better. That's claiming that economics may kill the diesel.

OK some of you have a trailer hooked up most of the time but most don't. Around here it's about 50 50 between the guys who do sometimes do heavy pulling and the kids who may haul a tube to the river. The original post had nothing to do with what you do with your truck. It was in general on how most of em are used and the cost of operation per mile over the length of ownership. Sure there are those out there who really make thier trucks pay for themselves but the vast majority don't.

We have a local very large family here. I believe mom and dad had 11 kids. The boys A. farm or B. do earth work. They are very successful. They all, every one of them, drive Ford diesels. They do do some trailering with the pickups but very little. Like most of the truck owners around here they have real trucks to do the heavy work with.

Rick
 
Horsepower is responsible for moving the vehicle along and gives it the ability to cruise on the highway and accelerate in normal conditions.
Torque, moves the vehicle from a dead stop and pulls the load up the hill. If I remember right my 7.3 diesel produces it's maximum torque, 575ftlbs at 1650 rpm.
 
I've got a pair of Dodge 2500's, (originally bought one for me, one for wife) equipped ALMOST identically. Quad cab, long bed, 4wd, automatic tranny, gooseneck hitches, ect.....Both '04's. One is a diesel, other a gasser.

Intitial purchase price higher with diesel.

Routine maintenance cost MUCH higher with diesel.

Both trucks now have over 225,000 miles on 'em. Major repair cost is MUCH MUCH higher on the diesel.

Fuel cost PER MILE slightly higher with diesel due to higher diesel fuel cost.

Towing ability only a little better with the diesel.

I keep very detailed cost of operation log book on all my vehicles (and equipment) This factors in ALL repair cost, maint cost, fuel, ect. Over 200,000 miles, the gasser was almost $11,000 less expensive to operate. Add to that, the difference in initial purchase price, and you have $15,000+ in you pocket if you chose a gasser. Based on how my results were accumulated, I'd suspect the difference would be even MORE lopsided if the truck(s) weren't being used for heavy towing as much. That is the ONLY area where diesels come close to a gasser in operating cost.

I tow 25' 14,000gvwr goosenecks with both. Normal gross weights of trailers are in the 8,500lb range. The diesel has some performance advantage, but not so much as to be worth the extra cost. If there's only a need to have one truck/trailer on the road, it's almost always the gasser.

For average "around town" stop and go driving, nod to the gasser again. Much quieter, smoother, and user friendly.

I'm not in a position where I need to rationalize the decision to buy EITHER truck. Nor am I one to argue a point based on having an opinion that "I can do no wrong". Again, I bought BOTH. They'll be replaced in another year or so. When the time comes, I'm buying gassers (only). I'm just not into throwing money away for an image or because I fall for marketing ploys.
 
We came to the same results - only with 4 Duramax diesels and 2 Powerstokes. Over 5 years we took a huge beating on owning them and the management team said never again. Repair costs were unbeleivable when added up. Even with the supervisors that were noted for taking care of their equipment. The biggest costs that kept coming up were injectors - it was never ending. They were getting replaced as often as tires.
 
I know where you're coming from.... and don't entirely disagree.
Just the same, these new spark engines are going with the same damn turbo's so they're not likely to be so cheap to maintain either.

I also sometimes wonder if it's not the user that's more of the problem than the turbo itself...

Rod
 
Well... if you want to compare based on miles per pound of fuel... the volume of gasoline just went up again... so diesel wins that round too. Add to that... the refining costs are likely higher on gasoline.

Rod
 
Rod,
Gasoline is about 6.2 lbs/gallon. Diesel is about 7.1.

So 10 miles per gallon is:
For gasoline: 1.6 miles per pound
For diesel: 1.4 miles per pound

For diesel to match the miles per pound of gasoline, its mileage in miles per gallon must be about 10 percent better.

I'll let you do the conversion to km/loonie yourself.
 
I guess if you want to take your numbers in than manner... that 10 mpg conventional gas engine will move about 20,000# on that amount of fuel. There's more than a few diesel's that will move 50-60,000 on 10 mpg...
Which is more efficient?

Rod
 
(quoted from post at 13:53:06 12/14/12) I guess if you want to take your numbers in than manner... that 10 mpg conventional gas engine will move about 20,000# on that amount of fuel. There's more than a few diesel's that will move 50-60,000 on 10 mpg...
Which is more efficient?

Rod
Click to expand...

Compare the same chassis or we can start talking about the fuel to haul one ton of freight, one mile via rail or freighter ship.
 
I love how heated this discussion gets every time.

Yes, we all know that Diesel fuel is $.80 a gallon more than gas. It wasn't when I bought my truck. Yes, new tech Gas engines run awful good. Yes, new tech diesels are not what they should be. Yes, If I were buying a truck today, the simple Initial cost would most likely keep me out of a diesel. It did 6 years ago when I bought a new K1500 Chevy, I bought a used K2500 with 6.5 for half the price of the Duramax engine a few years later when I actually started needing such a truck.

Torque is king, by the way. Without torque, there cannot be horsepower. Diesels, even v8's, make more low end torque. That's what moves a trailer. If they were to build a gas motor with the same torque characteristics, they also wouldn't tolerate the RPM's that are currently being required to get the ratings so high. Think Ford 300 I6. Was there anything it couldn't do? It gave good fuel economy, and moved a lot of cargo lots of miles. As long as you didn't want it to do it very fast. It couldn't make the RPM to make horsepower, and would probably self destruct if it did.

I think there will always be diesels in pickups. Not because a guy is overcompensating, but because diesels have good potential. The US EPA it the biggest problem we have with diesel tech. They are forcing manufacturers to use DEF and Particulate filters. European diesels don't have that crap, have better emissions, and much better fuel economy. And, with a little Bio diesel mixed in, even old school oil burners (like my old 6.5) have good emissions. But that would be like mandating ethanol in our gasoline. Oh Wait, they already do! Ethanol is a cheap octane booster, burns cleanly, and is renewable! Us Midwesterners have been using it for years.

Every other arguement I have has already been said. Some people don't like diesels, some do. I know if my 806 were gas, I'd hate that tractor. I know if my '97 K2500 were gas, I woudn't be able to put the fuel in it to drive back and forth the 16 miles I drive to work, and still have a HD truck when I need to pull my 14K 20' gooseneck.

By the way, I leave my trucks, gas or diesel, Idle if I know I'm only going to be away for a few minutes. It's just easier that way. Not this idle for 10 minutes BS after hauling air. That just proves those guys don't know diesels (or even HD engines in general) at all. They never grew up with them, they never farmed with diesel tractors to really know how to treat them. Turbocharged (or even NA engines) only really need a cooldown after running extended periods of high EGT's.

Sigh. Keep on arguing. My opinions are mine, yours are yours. -Andy
 
I would.... but the 427 ain't gonna make that 10 mpg; not by half. The old 3208 as pisspoor as it was, would. You could also compare a DT466 that would in roughly the same chassis...
That's really no different than twisting the arguement the other way which was done. A diesel in a 3/4 ton chassis WILL produce considerably better mileage than the gas engine doing the same work. Comparing on a cost per BTU is useless when you don't factor in the wasted BTU in present gasoline engines.


Rod
 
Rod, you keep trying to compare apples and oranges. Efficiency of light duty versus heavy duty trucks isn't a comparison that makes sense. Just like trying to compare gasoline and diesel mpg without adjusting for the different Btu contents of the two fuels.
 
Maybe not a direct engine function, but an indirect reaction. Think about it; The gas engine gets to running hot. Really heats up the radiator. The transmission cooling lines run into the hot radiator. The transmission doesn't get cooled as it normally would. So it heats up too. All because the engine ran hotter.
 
(quoted from post at 21:19:03 12/14/12) Maybe not a direct engine function, but an indirect reaction. Think about it; The gas engine gets to running hot. Really heats up the radiator. The transmission cooling lines run into the hot radiator. The transmission doesn't get cooled as it normally would. So it heats up too. All because the engine ran hotter.
Click to expand...

Diesels can run just as hot. Put a [i:ed6f11ca18]good[/i:ed6f11ca18] pyrometer and a [i:ed6f11ca18]good[/i:ed6f11ca18] temperature gauge in a diesel and go climb some hills with a load in tow. Get your EGT's up in the 1100-1200 range for any length of time and watch what the coolant temp does. When I say good gauge I mean something other than the idiot lights and so called gauges on the dash...

If your transmission is running hot then you need to add a larger cooler be it a gasser or diesel.
 
You're missing the point... Comparing the cost per BTU is pointless in isolation. Cost per pound of freight moved is where it's at. If that happens to be in a medium or heavy chassis, so be it.
Personally... I think the 3/4 ton truck is the most banal piece of crap that's even been set on 4 wheels. It costs more than a heavy medium to buy. It costs more to maintain. It can't stop it's own weight... costs more to insure and maintain... and rots to pieces in 10 years like every other pickup does.
I think in most cases a lot of people that need a truck to pull/haul are better off with a single axle or tandem to do their work and car or light truck for a runabout.
I do all of my running around and light hauling with a Ranger... and anything over 2-2.5 ton... I go with the tandem. The ton got parked behind the barn 7 years ago and there's not one day since that I ever regretted it.
I'd wager that about 10% of the people with 3/4 ton diesel trucks actually need or make use of them... and even then they have a 60K 'asset' that does nothing but depreciate.

Rod
 

Andy,

"Without torque there is no horsepower" This is true. It is also true that without RPM there is no horsepower.

Respectfully,
Ken
 
(quoted from post at 09:14:55 12/15/12)
Andy,

"Without torque there is no horsepower" This is true. It is also true that without RPM there is no horsepower.

Respectfully,
Ken
Click to expand...

Ken, there's no question that you're right. No Denying math. -Andy.
 
(quoted from post at 02:01:11 12/14/12) [b:d9811e693e] Dodge has not made a gas pickup engine worth spit ever. [/b:d9811e693e]
Click to expand...

As far as I am concerned, any credibility you had is gone now with this statement.
 
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