Virgin steel /recycled steel

Riverslim · Dec 12, 2012

Mechanic working on my 1956 Desoto made a remark something like "these bolts are pure steel, not recycled crap they use now". does he know what he's talking about?

sd pete · Dec 12, 2012

The Chinese are building a deep water navy out of the scrap we are sending over. So it must not be too bad.

RayP(MI) · Dec 12, 2012

Probably not - they were recycling everything they could get their hands on far before that car was built - WWII scrap drives? Far cheaper to recycle than process ore into steel - recycled is already purified once. Today"s steels are probably far more carefully controlled quality wise than back in the 50"s.

retired farmer · Dec 12, 2012

Probably knows what he is talking about. It was good American steel back in those days. Now everything is imported and recycled.

Janicholson · Dec 12, 2012

Maybe maybe not. Fastener companies that sell to automakers are very careful to maintain grade and class of bolt (law suits are easily refocused on supply side failures). The older cars did use first time steel, and it was quite good. I find serious fault with many imported bolts and hard ware variety fastener. I do not find fault with those used on modern cars for mission critical components. Suspension, Brakes, Engine or drive line.
Jim

ShadetreeRet · Dec 12, 2012

Good point Ray! As you said, back then it was called a scrap drive. The word "recycle" hadn't been invented yet, I don't think. LOL Even toothpaste tubes were made of some type of tin alloy and If I remember correctly, you had to turn your old tube in order to get another tube of toothpaste. I may be mistaken on that, but there was a lot of importance placed on the tin content.

Anonymous-0 · Dec 12, 2012

paid for by our tax dollars, the new chinese navy, cash for clunkers!

Jerry/MT · Dec 12, 2012

I worked my way though engineering school at U.S. Steel Gary Works in the early "60"s and scrap steel was used in the open hearths at that time.

Ultradog MN · Dec 12, 2012

I agree Ray.
Scrap steel of any sort is better than iron ore.
Unless it's got plutonium in it...
Which his mechanic couldn't feel.
By 1956 they were cutting up a lot alot a LOT of WWII battleships and the like so the supply of scrap that made the steel that made those bolts was pretty high quality.
But the quality of a 1956 bolt compared to what has been engineered since is on a scale of everything else mankind has invented since then. And his mechanic is fos.

Walt Davies · Dec 12, 2012

I guess you guys are to young to remember the large drives for steel and iron and other metals during WW II
Walt

Janicholson · Dec 12, 2012

Where did you work in the plant, I have 20 relatives that worked there (or still do) Loading. scarfing, and other jobs. (I am From Chesterton IN.) Jim

Paul from MI · Dec 12, 2012

The metallurgy, heat treatment, and quality control that goes into modern automotive fasteners is so far superior to anything available in 1956 as to be laughable. I can't answer for what you bought at Home Depot, but automotive fasteners and other compinents are very tightly spec'd, I've been in the industry since 1964.

RodinNS · Dec 12, 2012

In short... no he doesn't know what he's talking about.
Wether they're making steel from iron or melting scrap they're still going to burn the impurities off and make the necessary additions for the alloy they want to result. Some of the highest quality steel comes from melted scrap in an electric furnace...

Rod

Bob Huntress · Dec 12, 2012

It's hard to say what the bolt in 1956 was like brand new. When I run across the bolt it is all rusty and generally seized. Academically, however, I know they used scrap steel in 1956 for making bolts, just as they do today. Perhaps they used different additives in their Alloys, though I suspect there is only marginal differences even still. It's my opinion that the biggest difference between then and now is that today is most likely metric.

David G · Dec 12, 2012

I would bet a good quantity of the post WW2 steel was recycled.

MarkB_MI · Dec 12, 2012

Perhaps you can ask him what "pure" steel is. Ain't no such animal. Steel is a alloy, so by definition it can't be pure.

Now, what matters when it comes to fasteners is NOT what the fastener is made of, but rather the PROPERTIES of that material, such as tensile strength. Now the fasteners in your 56 year-old car probably rate pretty well if you compare them with the hardware store crap that passes for Grade 2. But I don't think they will compare favorably at all if compared with typical fasteners used in modern autos. Weak fasteners add weight to cars, and weight is the number one enemy of economy and performance. Modern automotive fasteners are very strong where they need to be, and very light (e. g. plastic) where they don't.

JayinNY · Dec 12, 2012

In the woods behind my fathers house is the remaines of a carriage house, there is iron laying there still today, that has been there for prolly 100 years now. It's as solid as can be, with some surface rust. Far better that any metal iv seen in my life time. I was gonna haul it out for scrap, but I decided to leave right were it is, it's a little bit of history, I'm not gonna send it to china. You can have your recycled metal.

MarkB_MI · Dec 12, 2012

Jay, that is probably wrought iron, a material no longer available. Because it is almost pure iron (very low carbon content), wrought iron has excellent corrosion resistance, but low strength when compared to mild steel.

JayinNY · Dec 12, 2012

Could be, I just know my grandpa found it 32 years ago, I was up there in 2008 and the metal is still there, this barn or whatever it was had a stone foundation, that's all that's left of it, beside the iron laying on the ground!

dgasper · Dec 12, 2012

Janicholson - I knew a Nicholson family who lived on 4th Street in Chesterton in the 1960's. Any chance it was your family?

uncle henry · Dec 12, 2012

just let it rust in peace/pieces

Anonymous-0 · Dec 13, 2012

Back in 1956 you wouldn't have a lot of the garbage fasteners like you have now. For specialty fasteners, the newer stuff might be better but even in the 50's they could make special alloys with 260,000 psi tensile strength. I know that because that's what they needed to make the landing gear for the Avro Arrow. Space was limited so they needed a super strong alloy to hold the weight and also fit into the tight space in the wing. Avro were also pioneers in the use of titanium in the 50's. The Iroquois engine was the most powerful engine in the world and also the first jet engine designed to be made from titanium from the outset. It was 5000 lbs lighter than a P&W J75 and had 40% more thrust.

JRSutton · Dec 13, 2012

There certainly is such a thing as lower quality steel creeping into our lives - look at rebar.

But - I think what's more likely the case in automobiles is that in the old days, weight and quantity of steel didn't matter so much, so it was used more liberally.

Why worry if something's going to hold with a 1/2" bolt when you can use a 3/4" bolt just as easily?

To say it was "over engineered" isn't accurate - because they were properly engineered for their environment of cheap materials and cheap gas.

The gas crunch of the 70's forced lighter, smaller, thinner parts with more plastic.

I think that may give the impression that everything was more solid in the old days, even the steel in the bolts.

But if you compare apples to apples - I think you'd find the components haven't changed much.

I'm just guessing of course - I have not seen any analysis.

JMOR · Dec 13, 2012

Saw How It's Made once where they said that some old steel/iron has to be added to newly smelted iron to make the steel. My question at the time, was, what did they do for the world's first batch? TV didn't answer me. :roll:

RodinNS · Dec 13, 2012

They don't have to add scrap to the iron mix... they just do because it's the cheapest wasy to do the job.
Making iron is not a simple or cheap process. Refining it further into steel is not so cheap either... so if you can drop something into the pot that is already steel you've gained a couple of steps and saved a bunch of money.

Rod

dpendzic · Dec 13, 2012

I would say he is misinformed about the quality of steel--As far as bolts its the grade or ASTM designation of the quality of the steel.
AS far as structural steel it is still the ASTM designation of its composition, technical properties and tensile or yield strength.
I distinctly remember when i was a college kid in the 60"s taking a tour of the Bethlehem steel plant that they had an electric furnace that melted down old steel and added to the mix of new iron ore they were processing.

Janicholson · Dec 13, 2012

Relative, but not close. We lived East toward MC about 1/2 the way. Farm. Jim

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