- Thread starter Coloken
- Start date
MarkB_MI
Well-known Member
- Location
- Motown USA
No.
uncle henry
Member
what they don't know won't hurt them
MarkB_MI
Well-known Member
- Location
- Motown USA
Henry, if the "they" you're referring to is the poor sap who is changing a bulb standing on an aluminum ladder thinking there's no power to the lamp, what he doesn't know can hurt him very much.
buickanddeere
Well-known Member
Illegal, imoral and dangerous. As previously stated the lamp , fixture and wiring stays energized even when the lamp is not shinning.
Not only NO as posted but H#^&*LLLLLLLL NOOOOOOO
To answer your question its NOT "legal" is my best professional advice, subject, of course, to exactly how you define the term "legal" The NEC is NOT law (speaking with my Attorney"s hat on lol, we didnt study it in Law School, sure did in EE school however), its a panel (certainly NOT only one persons opinion) of experts who publish the same and many communities adopt part or all and particualar versions of it. REGARDLESS I, AS AN EE, IN GOOD FAITH MUST ADVISE YOU TO NOTTTTTTTT SWITCH THE NEUTRAL and Im unaware of any codes or jurisdictions that would condone it, but hey never say never I reckon!!!!
Sure, Im rusty as an old nail on the latest NEC, but one never forgets the basics.. You switch the HOT notttttttt Neutral (the GrounDED Return Conductor)
John T
To answer your question its NOT "legal" is my best professional advice, subject, of course, to exactly how you define the term "legal" The NEC is NOT law (speaking with my Attorney"s hat on lol, we didnt study it in Law School, sure did in EE school however), its a panel (certainly NOT only one persons opinion) of experts who publish the same and many communities adopt part or all and particualar versions of it. REGARDLESS I, AS AN EE, IN GOOD FAITH MUST ADVISE YOU TO NOTTTTTTTT SWITCH THE NEUTRAL and Im unaware of any codes or jurisdictions that would condone it, but hey never say never I reckon!!!!
Sure, Im rusty as an old nail on the latest NEC, but one never forgets the basics.. You switch the HOT notttttttt Neutral (the GrounDED Return Conductor)
John T
EXACTLY, a while back I was at a buddys shop getting ready to work in a light socket and he insures me the switch was off (and indeed it was) HOWEVER not being my first rodeo I tested the circuit and you guessed it the hot was still HOT. Such a mistake can kill a body dead !!!!!!!!!
HE, a Billy Bob and Bubba type (wire their own home over a case of beer and are now experts) of guy tells me what he did was all fine and okay and shows me in his panel how all the Green/Bare Grounds and white Neutrals are at the same buss and therefore you can use them interchangeably OKAYYYYYYYYYYYYY LOL
John T
HE, a Billy Bob and Bubba type (wire their own home over a case of beer and are now experts) of guy tells me what he did was all fine and okay and shows me in his panel how all the Green/Bare Grounds and white Neutrals are at the same buss and therefore you can use them interchangeably OKAYYYYYYYYYYYYY LOL
John T
Anonymous-0
Well-known Member
I don't know about you guys but I pull breakers or fuses before I work on anthing. If I can't trace to a breaker or fuse I pull the Main.
Uncle Ernie
Member
In THIS case YES IT WILL! This "don't know" will KILL!!!
MarkB_MI
Well-known Member
- Location
- Motown USA
When was the last time you pulled a main to change out a light bulb?
Geo-TH,In
Well-known Member
coloken,
Dangerous, yes, got the crap shocked out of me standing on a ladder. A guy wired it with the switch on the neutral side.
Against code, yes.
Never seen code police, NEC, handing out tickets, so Illegal is?
However, I can't help to think there are many homes wired by DIY guys that are wired that way.
Power wires connected to the neutral side of receptical and neutral to the power side.
The switch connected to the neutral side.
Can't help myself for saying this, I know JT will scold me, send me to detention, give me a spanking...ect.
I would have all outside lights, recepts, connected to a GFCI. If you believe that GFCI's will save your life, prevent you from getting SHOCKED, then a switch on the neutral won't kill you. Would I do that? NOOOOOOO!!!!!!! Unless I had no other choice, which I can't see why I would have no other choice.
George
Dangerous, yes, got the crap shocked out of me standing on a ladder. A guy wired it with the switch on the neutral side.
Against code, yes.
Never seen code police, NEC, handing out tickets, so Illegal is?
However, I can't help to think there are many homes wired by DIY guys that are wired that way.
Power wires connected to the neutral side of receptical and neutral to the power side.
The switch connected to the neutral side.
Can't help myself for saying this, I know JT will scold me, send me to detention, give me a spanking...ect.
I would have all outside lights, recepts, connected to a GFCI. If you believe that GFCI's will save your life, prevent you from getting SHOCKED, then a switch on the neutral won't kill you. Would I do that? NOOOOOOO!!!!!!! Unless I had no other choice, which I can't see why I would have no other choice.
George
Walt Davies
Well-known Member
May not sound correct but switch the wires at the panel then paint the black white and the white black. The only difference between the two wires is color. Yea John T I have seen this done before by experts in the field.
Walt
Walt
buickanddeere
Well-known Member
Are you serious or are you just bored and stirring the pot with this ?
One wire is live, the other wire leads back to the breaker and carries extra live current back to the box - for a simple view.
If you put the switch on the nuetral wire, all the wires up to it are actually live all the time, including through the light fixture. That can be kinda exciting changing a bulb if you touch the socket....
If you put the awitch on the live wire, then when it is off, very little of the wires are 'live', only the one up to the switch.
Upside down or not wouldn't be a concern, it is whichever wire is hooked to it.
Switches have 2 different colored clamps, and you want to get the right wire onto the right clamp.
Any more, switches get hooked up with ground, and multiple lights, multiple switches, power feeding off to another switch or outlet, so there may be many more actual wires in any one switch box....
--->Paul
If you put the switch on the nuetral wire, all the wires up to it are actually live all the time, including through the light fixture. That can be kinda exciting changing a bulb if you touch the socket....
If you put the awitch on the live wire, then when it is off, very little of the wires are 'live', only the one up to the switch.
Upside down or not wouldn't be a concern, it is whichever wire is hooked to it.
Switches have 2 different colored clamps, and you want to get the right wire onto the right clamp.
Any more, switches get hooked up with ground, and multiple lights, multiple switches, power feeding off to another switch or outlet, so there may be many more actual wires in any one switch box....
--->Paul
Anonymous-0
Well-known Member
I do on yard lights with no switchs and anything that comes in contact with water and any mager wiring projects. I take it you never got into an old house that has 3 or 4 boxs not marked. Its easier and faster to pull main than try to trace down the box its coming from.
oliver power
Member
Yes and no. If I'm reading into his post correctly, YES, he can legally put the switch at the end of the line BUT, he must mark the white wire as black. I see it all the time. I've done it many times. I have a fairly new modular home that is wired like that in the master bedroom. I went to install a ceiling fan in the bedroom. And wouldn't you know, it was a bake lite box. I had to pull the wiring, and install a metal box for weight of ceiling fan. That's when I realized the wiring was different. Sure enough, the switch was at the end of the line. As far as actually switching polarity, NO WAY. But yes, he can switch(break) his return line from his outside light.
oliver power
Member
Yes Walt, I see you understand the question, as I do. This is more common than most think. Most people can not comprehend this way of wiring. That is, not till they actually see it. Then it all comes together. Most have never seen it before, as it's not common practice. Like you said, we're not changing polarity, we're changing colors. Kind of like thinking outside the box.
buickanddeere
Well-known Member
Walt and Oliver. The box you speak of is about 2ft wide and 7 feet long, buried 6ft deep with somebody inside that trusted a jackleg electrician.
buickanddeere
Well-known Member
How do you have the light jacklegged in there now?
Just take the time to do it right and be done with it.
Light should be on a photocell anyways.
Just take the time to do it right and be done with it.
Light should be on a photocell anyways.
Jerry Coulter
Member
My place was built in the 1940s and wired by a local electrician. All switches were in the ground circuit. The shop lights would glow in damp weather when switched off. That would keep the meter running. I would definitely leave switch in the hot wire.
![light-switch.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"](http://"http://i261.photobucket.com/albums/ii44/thurlow8/light-switch.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"/)
oliver power
Member
Sorry Buickanddeere, If you seen what I'm talking about, it would all come together, and is perfectly legal. Most have never seen it. If you ever do, you'd say "what a great idea". I'm talking of a switch at the end of the line. I believe that is the question the poster is trying to ask. Walt on the other hand, is talking a cobb job, cover up sort of deal, "going back to the panel box", etc.. I've seen that before too. In my opinion, that is shady, and deadly. Even if the wires are marked. I can tell by Walts color comments that he understands the poster's question. He just used the wrong example. And the Poster also see's that we understand his question. I see no one else does understand the question. And surely, I see no other repliers to this post has ever seen a switch at the end of a line. Any real electrician would know what I'm talking about. You can comment all you want about about 2' x 7'long box. But, if you ever saw what I'm talking about, it is simple, neat, clever, and perfectly legal. You'd never forget it. I wired 21 lights through out my basement. They are all switched at the end of the line. Very neat & clean. You don't see wires running all over the place. You'd be impressed! If I knew how to post a picture on this site, I'd be able to show you my switches. You'd scratch your head bald by morning, trying to figure how that works.
Stephen Newell
Well-known Member
If it's 60 years old, then the insulation on the wire is probably bad anyway and it wouldn't have a ground wire. If it were me I would pull new wire and put the switch ahead of the light or set it up with a three way switch if it is more convenient.
MarkB_MI
Well-known Member
- Location
- Motown USA
Ha! Absolutely true.
BTW, there's one of those boxes somewhere for every paragraph in the NEC. Folks seem to think the code was written by people who sit around all day drinking coffee and thinking of ways to make life difficult for electricians. Truth is, the NEC is written in charred flesh and burned buildings.
BTW, there's one of those boxes somewhere for every paragraph in the NEC. Folks seem to think the code was written by people who sit around all day drinking coffee and thinking of ways to make life difficult for electricians. Truth is, the NEC is written in charred flesh and burned buildings.
oliver power
Member
Yes Thurlow, That's exactly what I'm talking about. Now, after reading Ken's post over, and over again, I'm not so sure I did understand what he's talking about. Sorry Guys! Now it sounds to me like he wants to leave the wiring the way it is, only install the switch on the nutural wire instead of the hot wire. I'm puzzled! Why would he not want to switch the hot wire, even if he has to pigtail it.
buickanddeere
Well-known Member
Line and load wires are reversed on the switch.
buickanddeere
Well-known Member
What ground circuit switch? There is never ever a switch ever installed in a ground circuit.
The switches appear to be in the neutral circuit which has been incorrectly bonded to earth somewhere on the load side of the switch.
The switches appear to be in the neutral circuit which has been incorrectly bonded to earth somewhere on the load side of the switch.
I'll jump in here and say that back in the 80's right after my wife and I married I decided to be the good son in law and install ceiling fans in my mother in law's house and in her mother's house. These two houses were built in the 50's and both had been "remodeled" here and there. What I discovered was that roughly half of the existing fixtures in the ceilings were backwards, with the power live no matter what the switch on the wall said. Since changing bulbs in these old houses with ten foot ceilings usually involved a ladder on a wood floor it never showed up as being wrong. I have always carried a "volt tic" or whatever you want to call it. I don't rely on it for my primary protection but that's the way I discovered the problem to start with.
So, while at it I checked all of the circuits in the houses and most of the fixing was done with simply switching wires either at the fuse box or the outlets themselves. Some of them had to have new wire because of splices that weren't accessible in walls, etc. My weekend job turned into a month long mess because of "experts" fixing things and hooking up stuff until it worked and calling it good.
Bottom line: Never trust that something is as it appears, ALWAYS use a meter and double check everything before, not after working on it.
So, while at it I checked all of the circuits in the houses and most of the fixing was done with simply switching wires either at the fuse box or the outlets themselves. Some of them had to have new wire because of splices that weren't accessible in walls, etc. My weekend job turned into a month long mess because of "experts" fixing things and hooking up stuff until it worked and calling it good.
Bottom line: Never trust that something is as it appears, ALWAYS use a meter and double check everything before, not after working on it.
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