Why aren't we doing this in North America?

The wind turbine thread got me thinking, rather than post there and have it get lost, I started a new thread.

Why aren't we doing this in North America?

http://www.mnn.com/lifestyle/recycl...nse to me. What are your thoughts on this?

The wind turbine thread got me thinking, rather than post there and have it get lost, I started a new thread.

Why aren't we doing this in North America?

http://www.mnn.com/lifestyle/recycl...nse to me. What are your thoughts on this?

??????

The wind turbine thread got me thinking, rather than post there and have it get lost, I started a new thread.

Why aren't we doing this in North America?

http://www.mnn.com/lifestyle/recycl...nse to me. What are your thoughts on this?

Don't know what's goin' on, my post's won't show up.

Mods can delete this thread.

Apparently you are not familiar with utilities forced to accept
over priced wind and solar power then pass the extra costs to
the rate payer.
Lets install several hundred strobbing and a
thump/whooshing 3MW wind turbines down wind of you.
Starting about 400yrds from your home.

Wasn't talking about wind turbines, was talking about this:

http://www.mnn.com/lifestyle/recycling/blogs/sweden-runs-out-of-garbage-forced-to-import-from-norway

We used to have incineration plants. Then the tree huggers made the air emission rules so tight that the cost of meeting the emission rules was so high that they where loosing money and shut down.

It is the same with cars. Europe's air pollution standards are not as strict as ours. That is why you see diesel cars in Europe. They instead tax the heck out of oil to make you use less.

That works as the distances driven in Europe are shorter. They also have more dense population centers then we do so mass transit kind of works. Still take massive amounts of public money to make it work.

All in all though I would not trade my freedom for the few advantages they have.

I have always thought that we should still be using incineration plants but the tree huggers go nuts when you talk about it. We all should recycle everything. That is a big JOKE. Much of the volume of trash is just that trash and not recyclable. Plus the recycling is a net looser in energy usage. I have seen numbers that suggest that recycling causes more total ecological damage than if we did not do it but it makes people "feel" good. Kind of like eating a big piece of cake when you are on a diet but you say you will walk to the car twice to make up for it. Both things are just an illusion of doing good.

JD,

With all due respect, I would like to see links, ref"s to back up your statement below.

As we as a species continue to overpopulate our every growing waste stream has 2 aspects to be dealt with. Volume(landfills) and toxicity(ecological disaster).

We do not have the resources to clean up the recognized Superfund sites. Best we don"t make anymore in my opinion.

Landfills are not the answer. Short thinking is what has gotten our whole society into the current state of affairs.

I would have thought by now that all consumer products would by packaged in 100% recyclable packaging. Yes, it would cause costs to go up in the short run. But once we made switch over, raw materials to make packing would be abundant and cheaper. Energy cost is a big factor in recycling
but not the only factor.

Unless a classic Malthusian crisis occurs and wipes 1/3 to 1/2 of the population out we
ALL better get better at using renewal, recyclable materials.

Pete


"That is a big JOKE. Much of the volume of trash is just that trash and not recyclable. Plus the recycling is a net looser in energy usage. I have seen numbers that suggest that recycling causes more total ecological damage than if we did not do it but it makes people "feel" good. "

Jack,

I don't know the "ins and outs" of it, but as JDseller has said, there used to be waste incinerating plants all over America. You might still see the huge chimneys, especially in large cities, all around. I think that most or all of them are no longer in use, but they have been around for a very long time.

Tom in TN

We are supposed to be getting a Plasma Arc waste facility here in Marion . Or at least they have been looking at it . Agency that runs the landfill is opposed to it as it will take away their cash cow . Garbage is big business ! My understanding this Plasma thing will burn anything and generate some power also .

1. Cost. Recycling is not money friendly. Much cheaper to take raw material to make something than to recycle.

2. One thing the tree huggers don't want you to know is that much of recycling produces a LOT of toxins that still have to be disposed of. Good example is lead/zink acid batts. Yea you can do something with the plastic and metals but the old acid still is a toxic chemical even when neutralized. You create more toxins recycling paper than is reasonable. Our tree huggers don't want it burned.

3. Those people are stupid. They put in place heat and electric generation facilities that burn trash. They NEVER looked at running out of stuff to burn. So now they have run out of a "resource", go figure. Using a very low BTU fuel to produce heat and electricity isn't smart or efficient. Some US cities have in fact done this and because other cities have not they not only make heat/electricity but also make money buring other city's garbage. Thing is is it sin't a long term solution.

Do a little research before ya jump on the wagon!

Rick

(quoted from post at 10:57:56 10/27/12)
Do a little research before ya jump on the wagon!

Rick

Click to expand...

Didn't say that we should depend totally on incinerators to produce heat and electricity.

If we could burn our garbage instead of burying it and get power from it to boot, would not this be a wise move?

There is no way that I can see that we can ever do away with oil, coal or nuclear power plants but every little bit helps doesn't it?

heaven forbid that the goverment here should do somthing that would help the american public have jobs...

That's a kin to my post the other day showing pictures of Thoger's wood gasification boiler in his house in Sweden. He uses 4 sticks of pine or birch,2 every twelve hours,to heat his house and domestic hot water.
He has always said that if Sweden was a bigger country,they would rule the world again.
Come up with something new in this country,and we've reached the point where SOMEBODY,for whatever reason,but you can bet it's ALWAYS politics or stepping on the toes of somebody's cushy income,will demonize it right out of existance.
Sweden's NOT a multicultural,divided country. They work together for the common good. We don't,just that simple.

Pretty sure the Pigeon Forge area has something like that don't they? Or is it their sludge that they recycle? Quite successfully too as I understand it.

Well, Mass must be a foreign country, cause my trash get incinerated the same day I throw it out, I can go to the same place and dump it off- like stuff the weekly guy won't pick up, massive housecleaning, construction waste etc.
AND where I am going in a few minutes takes in leaves and brush from all over, decomposes it, and the methane while it is stewing goes into the gas line along the steam from the incinorator, the co-gen that makes electricity, and sends the used/low pressure steam in a long pipe to the old elec co.
Then the last year's leaves and brush and treated sewage gets processed and packaged and sold to bto's out west for fretilizer, who probably think it is oil based chemical. ha.
So as I go to the dump, I am laughing all the way to the bank. So make sure these ignorant tree huggers stay away from your place. I need the money....
BTW, metal, paper and plastic have the same value by ton at the mill as fresh, saving processes and transport in the bargain, think about it huh.

Good to know some places are doing this. There should be more.

We have, or at least had, a trash burner in
Minneapolis. As far as I know it's still going. Also
most landfills capture and burn methane for
electricity. That is what the pipes are for you see
sticking up out of the sides of the piles.

Don't know if you saw the pictures of the gasification boiler in Thogers house or not,here they are along with a weeks worth of wood and a seasons worth.
Notice the thermometer on the stove pipe in the first picture. It stays at a constant 50 degrees C,that's how efficient it is.

OK, read what I wrote, go get a cup of coffee, think, use the net to do some research, then attack what I said.

Recycling paper and some other items IS NOT EFFICIENT AND CREATES A LOT OR TOXINS THAT HAVE TO BE DESPOSED OF.

Building an incenerator that makes heat or electricty is a better way to use paper and other burnable but is not efficent. Low BTU output, plus scrubbers to keep the toxins out of the air are expensive and you still have the toxins to get rid of. I rather doubt that a plant like that would ever pay for itself. It's way better than trying to bury it.

My comment about the tree huggers is because they want to recycle paper, plastic and other burnables not burn them. Take away government subsidies from places that recycle and see how long they are open and what the value per ton is. About the only thing that make money recycling is metals.

Rick

the one we had in columbus ohio kept blowing up,..to many chemicals getting past the pickers, or so they say

Recycle plants, windmills, airports, etc. have a lot in common. Many want them, but "not near me". First built many years ago, "out in the boonies", operated OK for 10, 20, some for 40 years. Then the idiots build right up next to them, complain, protest, organize and drive them out. Latest casualty was a recycle plant about 10 miles from me. Operated for 40 years, met all state & federal emissions requirements by continually updating equipment, even recently was granted permit to expand by the state, but the local idiots that built right up next to them kept beating their drums & the local politicians caved to keep their offices/power/etc. and used taxpayer money to close the place down, along with a hundred + jobs lost, plus tax revenues. Local gov't gave them tax abatement to build there in the first place! You can't win!

(quoted from post at 11:48:09 10/27/12) OK, read what I wrote, go get a cup of coffee, think, use the net to do some research, then attack what I said.
Rick

Click to expand...

I don't believe that I attacked anything that you said nor will I.

I do believe recycling paper/cardboard,etc. is too expensive as you say, burn it all, recycle the metals.

Pete I will look for the old article on the recycling. It was from a few years ago when the bottle deposit bill was up for renewal here in Iowa.

I don't like the waste dumps at all. I think we should be burning all of the garbage we can. Evan if it just breaks even on energy. The volume or mass of what has to be disposed of is reduced greatly.

Just like the power plants should be closer to the cities that use the electric. They use energy to create heat to make steam to run a turbine to generate electric and then have to have a cooling tower to cool the water back down. We need to use that waste steam for heating or manufacturing. We did it years ago but not now.

There is a electric plant in Northern Kentucky that had a paper plant right next to it. The paper plant uses the waste heat to make paper with. Good plan!! We need more of that type of thinking.

We waste too much money on things that do not make since like recycling some things that are a net loser. The metals can be recycled well but much of the rest is a big loser in terms of cost and energy required. An example of this is the cost per ton to recycle plastic back into something plastic. The cost of the transportation is more than the cost of new virgin plastic. Paper is much the same, cost are high in handling the old paper to recycle.

We need to focus our energies in finding new ways utilize things better and more completely. In todays society, here in the US, we have bigger legal departments than research and development ones. The law suits have costs that are way more than monetary judgments.

An example of this: Just the other day I went to pick up my friends SUV that had a bad motor. I was using my sons pickup. It sets a little lower than mine. So I need to lengthen the goose neck hitch. My son did not have any tools in the truck. All I needed was a 12 inch Crescent wrench to loosed a set screw. The hitch has a pin but also a set screw to keep it from rattling. The Ford dealership that we where picking up the truck would not rent/loan a simple 12 inch Crescent wrench. I even told the service manager I would pay one of the techs to loosen the set screw and re-tighten it in the minute it would take me to adjust the hitch. He refuse to do it in any way because of fear of liability. It cost them a car sale. The fellow I was hauling the SUV for was inside looking at a different one when they told me that. He just got up and walked out. Told me that was just another sign of lack of customer service on the dealerships part.

rrlund,

I'm not sure about Pigeon Forge, but Nashville closed their incinerator a few years ago. It was heating water that was distributed all over town for heating public buildings, for providing hot water supplies for the buildings, and for operation of a steam generator that was generating power.

There's also a huge chimney right next to I-40 on the west side of Knoxville that is also out of service right now.

I remember the chimneys in Cleveland, Pittsburgh, and some city in New Jersey that I used to visit. It might not be a good idea, but that technique was used for a long time.

Tom in TN

If it was cost effective, private industry would be doing it without any taxpayer subsidies.

Dean

That's right..it blew up many times...!!!!!!!!!!!!

Other than that, I guess it produced energy...

It was always hard to tell if the stink down there was from that, the rendering Plant or the Sewage plant..!!!

I am North of Cols, but get to Columbus Steel Castings plant most Tuesday evenings..
There is a FULLY Operating Complete HO Model RR there.." The Columbus Model RR Club" or: The Scioto Lines..either can be seen on You Tube..

Ron..

They called they used to run in Columbus the CASH burning power plant. When they demolished it they still owed millions on it.

I remember the City of Columbus, OH building it when I was going to Ohio State in the early/mid 1980's. It made a horrid smell and trash will not burn. Now it's a golf course!

Before all the push for recycling, groups like the
Boy Scouts used to make money doing paper drives.
China imports used U.S. newspaper to make
cardboard from as it's cheaper than using raw
materials. Companies bale their scrap cardboard
and sell it for recycling. And all those companies
buying aluminum cans are making profits. Glass
companies prefer using recycled glass as part of
their new glass.

Plastic recycling only happens when the government
requires it. Plastics and dirty trash (any paper
used with food) should be burned for energy rather
than recycled because of cost.

Rochester MN recently enlarged their incinerator and now they are not getting enough trash to keep it fueled. They are now digging up the old land fills to get more garbage to burn.

Bondi's Island in Springfield?

Vito

wasn't so much chemicals as the burnze-matic tanks and 20 pound propane tanks.

Some things recycle well (aluminium, metals, glass, paper) some
don't. Sometimes the recycling process concentrates toxins and
heavy metals removed from the recycled material and become HAZ-MAT
(hazardous materials) and the cost of their disposal nullifies any
economic benefit for recycling. The way we dispose of our waste by
sealing it in landfills and preventing it from decomposing is
another problem. Sometimes our governmental policies are hazardous
to the environment. I lived in Michigan in 1980 when they passed
their bottle bill requiring a deposit on various soft drink and
malted beverage containers. When I left Michigan to go overseas in
1989 a lot of pop and beer was sold in returnable/reusable bottles
(less waste for landfills).When I returned to the US the Air Force
sent me to Florida. Returned home to Michigan for a visit in 1993
Son of a Gun no more returnable bottles! What happened? Seems the
state of Michigan changed the bottle law so the unredeemed deposits
go to the State and not the bottlers so it's not economically
feasible for them to use reusable bottles any more, if they're not
returned they don't get to keep the money to replace the bottle.
When I moved up here to Northern Wisconsin I find out Michigan is
broke, the stores here in Wisconsin sell pop and beer in cans and
plastic bottles with Michigan returnable markings and bar codes
with no deposit. Michigan is broke and laying off State troopers
and underfunding education, but guess what! They have enough money
to hire garbage dump police to inspect garbage headed for Michigan
landfills (maybe from Wisconsin) to insure recyclables aren't being
dumped into Michigan landfills.

Landfill for Sioux Falls, SD has pipes in its landfill to collect the
methane gas. They then send it to a near by ethanol plant and they
use it for fuel to run the plant.

Your pig farmers .if not already doing so,could also be trapping the methane from the excreta and turn it into electricity, use it for the enterprise or place on the grid. $$$$

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