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The decline continues

R

rrlund

Well-known Member
The loss of 2700 union jobs several years ago continues to take its toll around here. I noticed Monday that the tire store was closed. The one guy,and I mean literaly,the ONE guy who came in the resturant this morning said the barber in the corner of the building told him Monday that they were closed for about a month. He said he talked to the manager of another location later in the week and he said no,they were closed for good. That's real convienient. Now I have to drive at least 12 miles one way to get a trie repaired.
Add to that the fact that I'd made up my mind that if the wife and I were the only ones in the resturant again this morning that it was going to be the last Sunday morning for us. But,the one guy who came in kept us going back for another try next week. Used to be there was at least a dozen regulars around a table for 8 and some continued at the next table.
They might as well take down the Village Limit and speed limit signs and forget the whole idea of a town.
 
Losing that many jobs sure hurts a community, any community.

Too bad unions got so involved in supporting their own fat cats, instead of helping the common man any more. There used to be a good need for union.

These days, the unions seem to have lost their way, and are costing people jobs instead of helping folk.

Here in the rural areas, it's normal to be about 10-12 miles from anywhere. That's not such a bad thing. :)

--->Paul
 
Thats how it's been here in rural Nebraska for years. Farms are alot bigger and the equipment is larger too. No reason for a repair shop since everything is computer controlled. The local repair shop is closing after 37 years, The next town up the road (maybe the largest in the county) has about 1000 people with 2 gas stations, 1 car repair shop,1 bar, 1 small farm supply that deals mostly in tires and fuel, but cannot support a restaurant. If it weren't for the goverment jobs (county seat, ASCS, State Park, sherrifs office, school) in this town it would be another town of about 300 people like all the rest.
Next town west has about 300 people and it has a gas station/tire shop, 2 bars, 1 reataurant, and chemical/fertilizer/seed corn store (Central Valley Ag is the name), and the school that very well may close in the next year or two.
Everyone works 35 miles from home if they live around here. I don't think the reason is all the great opportunities in the cities so much as the lack of them here.
 
rrlund Welcome to modern America. I bet that the tire shop closed because many of their customers would go to Walmart an "save" ten dollars on four tires. Then complain about how the local guy was a crook because he was charging too much.

It is just like you complaining about the restaurant not have enough people to serve your social needs. I did not hear you say your food was bad, too high priced, or the service was bad but you say your not going to go back again unless there are more people there. I did not know that a restaurant had to provide social company to keep its customers.

It may be that the other people don't have the money to eat out. My wife and I have not been out to eat in 6-8 months. The $20-30 dollars will buy us several meals worth of food we fix ourselves.

Another thing that is going to kill the small businesses is the generational difference in how people socialize. The younger kids don't want the same things than we did or do want in social interaction. My grand daughters will not do business much in town. I have asked them why. They say everyone wants to know all their business. They say they want to be able to eat,buy,shop without fifty questions about them and the rest of the family. They perceive the locals as out side of their circle of friends. They don't want to deal with anyone not in that circle of friends. Now these friends are Twittered and texted to fifty times a day but anyone else is not welcomed. It seems that this generation does not want direct interaction. They do it through their devices not in person.
We looked at the grand daughter's cell phone bill a few months ago. (We have a big company plan that all of my sons and I bought together. It saves us big time over each of us buying individual plans) One of them had 3722 text that month and one of the others had 2996. just think about it. They where averaging a 100 each day. I had 64. I lost big time. LOL
 
I saw in the paper that Tractor Supply is closing their Sioux City Iowa store. I personally didn't frequent the place (65 mi away) but it is sad to lose those kinds of busines's.
 
Well, JD seller, they don't have anything more productive to do or look toward to do, as between the unions driving labor costs so high jobs have moved elsewhere AND government regulations doing the rest to run off all the industry, what are they going to do to earn a living? So, is their future to msg & twitter, etc while waiting for next govt check? Next question: when there is no industry, no jobs, where is money to come from for those govt checks? My children & grand children are in for a heap of trouble! Even if I can leave them an inheritance, what the govt won't confiscate will be worthless as a result of inflation/devaluation!
 
There was a large appliance company there. GE or whirlpool or one of the big ones. They moved their production to Mexico.
 
And just where do you want to start??? Lets see here Elgers , Demings , E W bliss two lumber company's four hardware stores one tractor dealership Pittsburg foundry the whole down town the ma and pa gas stations and the list goes on . So now if you are looking for it you will not find it in this town . Like tryen to find a pair of work boots or work shirts just ain't ah going to happen . But we do have a Wal Marts and homer Depot . If your looking for a board longer the 16 foot forget it . If your looking for a grade five carriage bolt forget it if your looking for a plow bolt for get it most of the time IF and i say IF TSC has the plow bolts the do not have the shears if they have the shears they do not have the bolts , but they do have candy.
 
I don't think it is all generational. The "elite" in the community here are as every bit as insulated from the public as the granddaughters you describe. And it is not like the "elite" here are far ahead of everybody else in terms of wealth. One widow here is described as just "businesslike" but it is just a matter of poor manners for those of us not trying to gain favor with her. Sometimes a snob is just a snob. A result of our society being more obsessed with material gain and rubbing one's comparative success in the noses of those we perceive as less successful.
 
Just wait till the day the Federal Government is forced to get serious about its debt situation. The chit will really hit the fan. People will have far less disposable income than they do now.
 
As I understand as of next year the cuts in military defense spending will begin with the object being to cut a half trillion over 10 years. That means defense contractors will be cut, the saying was it could idle up to a million workers including support jobs.
 
Those companies aren't moving because union wages
are breaking them, they are moving to increase
there profits. Where will they go for customers
when they have reduced the standard of living so
far down that no one in U.S. can afford their
products? I guess they will head to China or India
and we will be living in a 3rd world situation.
All you guys that hate unions should look at the
statistics showing the decline of unions and the
decline of wages for all the middle class and the
corresponding increase in corporate profits over
the last 30 years. Unions aren't perfect, but
until someone can come up with a better idea to
increase the standard of living for middle class
or at least keep it from declining further, they
are the best we got.
 
Germany went through a period of excessive job losses due to competitiveness (high wages, among OTHER things) in a more and more mechanized and world based economy. Wealth for the broad masses stagnated, decreased, more folks on social programs, increased poverty to levels not seen since WWII, unemployment well over 10%.....
Last about 10-12 yrs. Now, all the sudden we are becoming more competitive, due to many places in the world catching up to levels we were on before the sh.. hit the fan. I do firmly believe that we will go through the same process here, my personal guestimate is 10-15 yrs (starting in 2008) at a minimum.
I think there are several other big questions that are worth thinking about:
A.Why do we have to have growth over 2, 2.5 %??? Or why do we even have to have growth, period? Will the average person be so much worse of with "growth" being close to 0%, basically maintaining the status quo? Granted, in the US only, it would put as behind, but what about on a global basis??
B.The other question is what will happen when one day virtually all resources have been used up?
C. When, not if, we get to the point that virtually everything can be made and produced, supervised by machinery, electronic devices, what happens to people? What will we be doing? Are still needed? And if, for what?
Anyways, just some questions, I don't have definite answers for, but pretty interesting to mull over......
Ralph in OK.
 
I've noticed the proximity to a larger town or city makes a big difference. Towns in a remote area need to be a lot more self-sufficient than a town closer to a larger city.

For instance, I've noticed Broken Bow, NE, population 3,500, has far more goods and services available than my hometown of Seward, population 7,000. Why? Because Seward is 20 miles from Lincoln and Broken Bow is out in the Sandhills.

Seward's newspaper (which I managed once, many years ago) is constantly plastered with public service ads wanting people to shop at home. Yet a year of so ago, I was looking to buy a blanket for our bed. In the entire town of Seward, there was not one single plain old fuzzy blanket for a queen sized bed available. Or any other size bed,for that matter. And that included Walmart. So much for shopping at home.

Business people need to adapt. When Walmart first came to Seward twenty years ago, and again when they upsized to a Super Walmart 10 years ago, there was a big commotion predicting that downtown would become a ghost town. It didn't happen. Various businesses found a different niche that Walmart didn't want to mess with, and life went on.

And when a business did close, there was a reason, usually incompetence. A large tire store closed several years ago for lack of business, but I'll swear to this day it was because they couldn't balance tires worth a hoot. I don't know if it was their machine or the operators, but I could take a wheel straight off of their high tech electronic balancer and without even mounting it on a vehicle put it on my bubble balancer and it would lean to one side.

The whole scene is a complex issue that in some cases simply boils down to the character, competence, ambition, and personality of the people involved.
 
I got an email last week that explains in plain English the situation we are in as a nation.
The Federal gubbermint takes in 2.6 trillion per year in taxes, yet all of the Social security, Medicare, Medicaid eat up over 2.6 trillion per year. Yep.....And we still have to pay for Defense spending, foreign aid, and countless other stuff. Not to mention the salaries of the A-holes and their staffs of the gubbermint. The USA is in bad shape and we WILL get to the point of Greece and other hopeless nations that granted all the "FREE" stuff to their citizens.
3 billion dollars per day is added to the national debt...Yes 3 billion. and 42 cents of every dollar is interest. I think I am going to puke.
 
(quoted from post at 13:14:45 08/12/12) I got an email last week that explains in plain English the situation we are in as a nation.
The Federal gubbermint takes in 2.6 trillion per year in taxes, yet all of the Social security, Medicare, Medicaid eat up over 2.6 trillion per year. Yep.....And we still have to pay for Defense spending, foreign aid, and countless other stuff. Not to mention the salaries of the A-holes and their staffs of the gubbermint. The USA is in bad shape and we WILL get to the point of Greece and other hopeless nations that granted all the "FREE" stuff to their citizens.
3 billion dollars per day is added to the national debt...Yes 3 billion. and 42 cents of every dollar is interest. I think I am going to puke.
Click to expand...
ep! Far to many "I have a right to----". Such as health care........no "right", it is a "luxury you have to earn". Just like so many other things in life.
 
I grew up in the Gold country of Northern, California it had lots of small towns some at one time over 5000 people. Almost all are gone now not even a sign saying they were there. Life goes on towns come an go so do people. farming has high tech and the cost of machery has gone out of site for the little guy, but we are producing more now at a lower cost than ever before.
When Ford started building the model T he paid top wages but worked his people to hard the union got a foot in the door and now they pay top dollar and sit around on their but so Ford has replaced most of them with machines that work faster for less.
But like they say someone base make and repair the machines.
It all comes around sooner or later the old Gold rush towns are comming back to support the influx new people.
Walt
 
Back in 2005 the carrier air conditioning factory closed here in morrison tn. where i had worked for over 20 years we lost 1800 good union jobs plus another 1000 support/supplier jobs things have never been the same. It seem ever since 2001 we have been loosing factory jobs left and right here.
 
Our state legislature just turned down 1700 union jobs in an economically depressed area of our state. Such a shame, if one state senator from the Democratic party would of voted for it we would have those jobs AND the 5 million plus dollars a year added to our state's economy. Gee if the state and local governments get 20% of that that's a million dollars more a year in tax revenue they'd have but the public employees union informed the nnalert that they didn't want them to support it. Do you know in the right state if you're a Union member you can drive under the influence of alcohol with no criminal prosecution, or have intimate relations at work and not have to worry because your Union will step right up and defend you with all their considerable might. And of course if I think that these abuses of union power need to be corrected I'm called a hate filled union busting right wing extremist.
 
Forty years ago, in my hometown there were 7 or 8 car dealers. Not USED car dealers, but NEW car franchises. Today, there are 2. A lot of parts, service, and sales jobs disappeared when these dealers closed or consolidated.

Back then, they were all "Mom and Pop" style family-owned operations. Today, the GM/Dodge dealer owns stores in 3 different towns, plus a stand-alone used car store in yet another town. The other dealer was part of a manufacturer-sponsored minority-ownership promotion that brought him to town, so he's not someone who grew up around here and knew the locals and their ways.

Oh, the dealerships ARE bigger...but overall they employ about half the people who were employed at the 7 or 8 separate dealerships of 40 years ago, while the community has at least twice the population it had 40 years ago, when they were just building the interstate highway.

And that's not the ONLY industry that's gotten smaller. The local furniture factory that employed a couple hundred people got "corporatized" a few years ago; the major family stockholders took the company stock "public," and a majority was bought by some bankers or some such. They closed all the plants, sold all the assets, and for about a year imported furniture under the company name. Then when they'd generated enough losses to suit their tax purposes, and there were no assets left for stockholders except the company name, they folded the company completely. Didn't ever believe such a thing would happen with such a small company in such a small town, but I guess I didn't understand investment bankers as I thought I did. SOMEBODY made money on that deal...but it wasn't the locals.

And then the investment bankers--just like lawyers--wonder why small-town America has such a low opinion of them.
 
(quoted from post at 08:28:53 08/12/12) The loss of 2700 union jobs several years ago continues to take its toll around here. I noticed Monday that the tire store was closed. The one guy,and I mean literaly,the ONE guy who came in the resturant this morning said the barber in the corner of the building told him Monday that they were closed for about a month. He said he talked to the manager of another location later in the week and he said no,they were closed for good. That's real convienient. Now I have to drive at least 12 miles one way to get a trie repaired.
[b:a6f3ae8b51]Add to that the fact that I'd made up my mind that if the wife and I were the only ones in the resturant again this morning that it was going to be the last Sunday morning for us. But,the one guy who came in kept us going back for another try next week. Used to be there was at least a dozen regulars around a table for 8 and some continued at the next table.[/b:a6f3ae8b51]
They might as well take down the Village Limit and speed limit signs and forget the whole idea of a town.
Click to expand...

I'm confused,... why would anyone expect 11-12 "regulars" to sit in a cafe all day, for the purpose of entertaining someone who only visits the cafe "once a week"?
Maybe if YOU would become a "regular" a few others would join you, then you could enjoy the social company you apparently crave.

The small towns around here have been "drying up" for years, and it isn't because of a loss of any union jobs (which were very few in the first place).
I think the small towns across this nation will continue to change,... most of them in direct relationship with the continuing loss of small farmers.

I also think this country would be much better off without unions,... they are no longer needed and only serve to further "divide" this country.

Tractors!! :D
 
I think you hit the nail on the head and made my point without even knowing it. Nobody has any money to go out. That's what I'm saying.
 
Forty years ago we had six tractor-implement dealerships that did a fairly healthy business each. Today we have one that is part of a chain operation and one that has a couple short line brands and some hobby farm items. The two today did not exist here forty years ago.
Unions never existed at most of the manufacturers here and the largest one years ago (Kodak) in Rochester, NY did not have one, either. Most are gone or are a shell of their former selves. The unions obviously did not do in every business.
 
any situation where you have an organization "getting free stuff" for its members, you're going to get into corruption, unfulfillable promises, and shattered hope and dreams when reality finally wins out.

that's just as true about unions as it is about the government.

They keep promising more and more - "elect me, I'll give you more stuff, elect him and he's going to take stuff away from you".

It's easy to see why the wrong people get ahead in these organizations.

It's great to get all sorts of "free" stuff; home loans we can't afford, medical coverage for anything we want, a guaranteed income for life, etc etc.

But simple physics dictates that some day reality strikes, it all gets too good to be true.

The unions have seen it, and are certainly seeing it around the world. Our nation is about to see it.

It's so easy to blame rich people for it all as a last ditch effort.

Sad fact is, you could take 100% of the income of all the "rich" in the US and still only run business-as-usual for a few extra weeks.

The government has overstretched. Unions have overstretched. They've both gotten to the point where there's no physical way to keep up with what they've promised.

Unions have gone WAAAAY past fighting for human working conditions. WAAAAAAAAY past that.

don't call me anti-union - I'm anti corruption. Just like you have to be fair to workers, you have to be fair to the companies that employ them. It HAS to be a two way street.

I'm 10000% for establishing a fair system of opportunity - but I'm 10000% Against putting a guarantee on success for all.

All we can do is hope that americans wake up to this reality. Sadly, I personally think we're too far gone past the tipping point.

There is no country in history that has ever gotten itself out from behind so much debt by raising taxes (on the rich, on the poor, on the middle class, or on all of them combined).

The ONLY way we will save ourselves from this mess is to get our economy booming again. As hard on the ears as that may be for many of today's americans - that means we have to help businesses prosper, making those that start them and run them richer.

Tough )(#*$ get over it.

Better yet - BE ONE of them.
 
It wasn't just a Sunday morning once a week thing. It was the same way at noon. 10 or 12 of us around the table. I went every day,then my wife lost her job due to "cutbacks" so I quit going,but that was after the guys from the GM dealer quit because the place closed. Then the guys from the hardware store slowed down,and the ones from the lumber yard. The two guys from an independent auto repair,it just kept dwindling off. If the wife and I go in now for lunch,there MIGHT be a couple of old widows in for a sandwich,but even they don't come in much because there's a good chance they'll be there alone.

And this is the only resturant in town. Not even so much as a fast food joint to give any competition. The deli where you could get a sub sandwich isn't even there anymore.
 
ps - paul that wasn't directed at you - was just agreeing with you - and got carried away in a rant. This subject always drives me crazy.
 
You hit the nail right on the head. Those guys making "more than anybody's worth to run a screw gun eight hours a day" weren't the ones making that money. We all were in one way or another. They didn't keep it,they put it in everybodys pocket.
These 2700 jobs went to Mexico because of NAFTA.

BUT,next time I'm pumping $20 worth of fuel in my truck to go spend 2 hours getting a tire fixed when I'm already busier than a one armed paper hanger,I'll feel joy in knowing Limbaugh and Hannity are happier because of NAFTA. And that dispite the fact that the cost of a refrigerator hasn't gone down one thin dime,profits for Electrolux are up. And I'll remember how those union workers who eventually lost their jobs because of NAFTA were practically dancing in the streets after they helped re elect Clinton and Gore after they crammed the legislation that would eventually cost them their jobs down our throats. It's all a big comfort to me believe me.
 
Speaking of local tire shops, 95% of all the tires that our local home-town (population ~750) tire shop sells are made in China, Vietnam or Korea. The few American-made tires that they do sell are some Firestone front tractor tires that are American made, but Firestone is a foreign-owned company.
Yet at the same time, the owner will b*tch and complain that the foreign companies are taking over this country.
I will admit that my last passenger car tire purchase was at WalMart. Why? Because they had some American-made Goodyear tires, they had them at a decent price, and to make all you pro-union guys happy, I'll bet anybody here that they were union made.
About a year ago, I saw my local hardware store owner coming out of a Menards store with several huge shopping bags of items. (The nearest Menards is about 1-1/2 hours away from his store) I went over and talked to the (red faced) owner and everything in those bags that I saw could be purchased at the owner's store.
To every owner who complains that it is the customer's fault that the small stores are closing down, these owners really need to look in the mirror.
 
Unions are not the problem, the problem is that we do not support local business, but go to Walmart to save a nickel.

I also think people spend more money than you think. How many people go out to eat 3-5 times a week, tatoos, cable TX, cell phones. Farms around here are going for 10-12 K per acre.
 
Forty years ago, a car needed an overhaul at 100K miles and there was a mechanic at just about every gas station. Why isn't there a mechanic at ever gas station today? Because the cars last longer, even if they are a lot more complicated.
As far as the mom-and-pop dealers, corporate doesn't want that. Remember just a few years ago when GM and Chrysler closed down all those dealerships? John Q. Public didn't want them closed and even the owners filed lawsuits to keep them open. Usually, it didn't help and they were closed down anyway.
True story: A couple of years ago, there was a Carquest parts dealer nearby. This place was what you call a genuine mom-and-pop parts store as the owner worked there and nobody else. In other words, the owner was the only person behind the counter.
One day a couple of corporate suits came in and told him that he needed to update his computerized ordering system. He told that that it worked just fine and that he wouldn't and couldn't afford to do it. They next told him that he needed to sell CARQUEST starters instead of the independent brand that he was selling. He told them that he used to sell Carquest starters, had way too many returns and warranty work and that's why he didn't and wouldn't sell them. The corporate boys left. About a week later, he gets an official letter from Carquest telling him that in 30 days they were going to drop him from the parts chain supplier. (It's not that he's too far away from the Carquest warehouse, as the Carquest supply truck still drives by his store at 2:00AM, it just no longer stops there) He gets on the phone and is now an AC Delco auto parts supply store and he couldn't be happier.
My point to all the rambling is that the customer is not always the final decision maker in the downsizing of rural America. Remember when Vise-Grips was made in Dewitt, Nebraska? The public didn't decide to move operations to China, the owners did.
 
(quoted from post at 11:06:02 08/12/12) I think you hit the nail on the head and made my point without even knowing it. [b:c6ff042fff]Nobody has any money to go out. That's what I'm saying.[/b:c6ff042fff]
Click to expand...

Maybe so,... but I doubt it's entirely because of the loss of the union jobs.

As I mentioned, the town I live close to (population 3000+ in the 60's,... and probably closer to 1800-2000 today) only has a few "unionized" employees (State Highway Dept.).

If the State Dept. (here) was to disappear today, the only thing I'd really notice,... would be a welcome LACK of "obnoxious whinning".

The coffee table in town still has a FEW "regulars" though, but now consists of the BIG farmers in the county, because most of the small farmers have sold out and are now working for the BIG farmers, or, have moved to bigger towns and working different jobs.

Tractors!
 
Used to be a lot of carpenters,excavators,drywallers,you name it,folks who built things when people had jobs and money to have new things built. Jobs that are all gone now.
Unless you live it,you can't even begin to imagine the ripple effect of that kind of payroll leaving a small community.
I used to listen to talk radio. I know that's where a lot of this sentiment being spewed on here is coming from,but I can absolutely tell you from real life experience now,that it's all a great big load of hypothetical bull sh!t. It's a nuts as thinking the left is right about socialism having all the answers.
 
If I was the only one in a resturant I'd consider myself lucky. Maybe I just don't like to converse while I'm trying to enjoy a meal. I certainly don't care for "waiting" to be waited on when there's a crowd.

Instead of focusing on economics, is it possible its just the management of the resturant? I've seen good places go downhill very quickly due to new management. Sometimes the food is bad, the place is dirty, or most often the new owners or help have terrible personalities or disposition. I know I get very chosey of resturants based on the owner and staff.
Don't tell the ACLU but I am NOT an equal opportunity employer. I DO judge people based on their age, s e x, religion, race, weight, smell, looks, politics, tatoos, body peircings, dress, haircut, schooling, what they say, what they drive and what sh-t their kids do in and out of school.

Sorry if that sounds harsh but if people can't get it together or give the image they don't care about their own health, or the way they look in public, then what is there to make me feel ok about them handling my food? Remember, most people are to polite say anything, they just quit coming.
 
It is many different factors, but one that always baffles me is the bone heads that own some of the larger tractor dealerships. You have to wonder if they inherited it or just have been lucky because it is not good decison making that got tyem there.
There was a green tractor dealer in the town where my farm is for many years and it did very well. Aside from a good core famer business for tractor and inplement sales, they had built a very nice and profitable lawn mower business.
The local owner was ready to early retire and sold it to a larger multi store group. They had open for only about a year.
Reason they closed it? They had, in one of their closed door meetings full of people that did not have clue, decided that the first year gross sales target was $6,000,000. This was over double the year before, which was very profitable.
When they did not reach that ridiculous gross profit number, the new owners closed it. The nearest green tractor parts house is 45 miles away.
Oh, let me not forget that they offered free shipping for 90 days on any parts to customers in the area. LOL
Bone heads!
Did I mention that they ------ off many of the lawn mower customers because the new owner did not want "small ticket" business?
 
Right on.. in the mid '90's Limbaugh said we don't need those jobs (that were going to be outsourced). What REALLY surprised me is, last week on Fox News John Stossel had a special and mentioned our U.S. Olympic athletes wearing Chinese made uniforms. Stossel said "let the Chinese make them... we can do BETTER things". Like what? Those Chinese made uniforms were EXPENSIVE. (and yes, I'm a conservative but sure don't agree with these other conservatives' viewpoints about jobs. This is a discussion that needs more publicity.
 
You're totally backwards on this one. If I didn't want to socialize I'd stay home. As far as mismanagement,no. Same owners for years. Like I said,no competition. I'm not going to be the least bit surprised when they can't take it anymore and the closed sign goes in the window.
No carpenters or excavators doing new construction due to no money in the community,lumber yard is still open but with a small fraction of the staff they had. Auto dealer closed,it has just snowballed over the years since the closing of that factory.
You can study economic theory til the cows come home,but I've seen what happens when theory goes out the window and facts set in.
All those "new economy" jobs that were promised to this country if we were willing to give up manufacturing just flat out never happened. A new sloar panel plant came in with the promise of 1200 new jobs. At the height of production they had hired 400 and gave them new hope,but they folded too and are long gone along with the hopes of everybody in this community.
 
Ecxactly! If somebody can name me even one of those "new economy" jobs that we were promised,I'd love to know about it. We were sold a bill of goods on that theoretical garbage.
 
Did'nt you know to be smart and have a valid opinion that you had to be tall, good looking, and drive an expensive SUV. The corporate desire to load their ranks with real-life Barbie and Ken dolls will doom this nation to economic misery in another ten years.
Related to your story is one of the regional fertilizer outfits here considers it a pain to do business with anybody that is not a BTO farmer. "The numbers are just not there." Really!?
 
Which is why Rush Limbaugh has not been relevant in about 15 years. People need to think past the "talkers" on both sides of the political aisle. The country's future depends on it.
 
Really?!?!?! You can legally drive drunk if you're a union member? Really?!?!?! You failed to mention the state. Which one is it? WOW!!!! Do you honestly think ANYBODY on here believes that???? You are severely misinformed. As for the jobs the nnalert supposedly didn't vote for, which state were those in and what jobs were to be created?? And what was the union that didn't want those jobs? Just curious.
 
I see lots of complaining here. Usually its about how much the local tractor dealer charges for specialized OEM parts. Most of our troubles is due to the consumer wanting to save a nickel. Folks used to go their dealer of choice and buy their oil, filters, grease, baling wire/twine, hay reke teeth, etc etc. The dealer could affort to carry the rarely sold special OEM parts because the customers did much of their business with him. Now tight wads start off shopping for the absolutely lowest price, drive all over to get it, usually at Walley World. They buy nothing at the local lealer except what they cant find cheap at big box stores or on-line. Then they want the dealer to stock that special part on the shelf for 10 years and sell it cheap. American comsumers have no loyalty, and are so cheap they could squeeze a buffalo t**d out of a buffalo head nickel. Tom
 
buzz you hit the nail on the head for kellers demise,, few folx understand TODAY the anatomy of how it was killed off,,,this style of perverted corporate communism is wrecking our free enterprise system ,, i suppose you know or heard what the gm dealer pulled over on our used to be chrysler dealer ,, no gm ever for me
 
It may seem bad now but wait until our socialism reaches full maturity. People won't just think they are hungry, they will starve to death.
 
trouble with free trade is.....

we have to compete with folks who live in a grass hut and work for 50 cents a day.


now how the heck is america gonna do it?

union or not..

I see day after day where we could keep jobs if americans would settle for a bit less. dropping from 40 bucks an hour to 35 bucks an hour for auto workers would be a start...

but sadly in most cases the union refuses and the jobs go.. and then all the supply jobs go with em..

then the chinkkers come back with a new us factory with jobs at 30 bucks an hour and we're glad as hekk to take them.
 
The town I live in has stayed about the same since 1946.The old money in town does not want change. So now it is dieing. They fought the new owner of the feed store. When he moved it to the edge of town.They fought the oil service company that wanted a water line to there plant.They drilled there own well. Now old money complains about the money they lost. They fought the Dollar store when it was built. Kids get older and move out and the old money complains.

I can see a day when the only thing left in this town will be the courthouse and the county jail. I have seen it before in small towns across Texas
 
The last time I checked a person couldn't do anything about gettin older.
I hope when you get a little age on you, you get canned.
 
My friend owns the local lumber yard/hardware store. Hears that all the time. I can get it cheaper at Lowes or Home Depot. He tells them great go buy it there.

Lowes 45 miles one way.
Home Depot 59 miles one way.
 
I was talking to a local farmer and mentioned another "local farmer". My neighbor surprised me by saying "Oh, he isn't local, they bought that place in 56'"!!!! 56 freaking years and they still aren't really "local"!!! If your grandparents were born here, maybe you belong. Otherwise, keep your distance.
 
I think it is interesting that people keep blaming unions. I think unions are down to 9% of the private workforce. What about the other 91%? I know quite a few folks who never belonged to a union, and have lost their jobs. On the other hand, I've seen automation ( technology ) eliminate a lot of jobs. It simply doesn't take as many folks to make the widgets anymore.
 
In all 57 States of this Great Union, the jobs just weren't shovel ready because the business owners didn't build that. They think the're so smart.
 
There are places around that if your ancestors were not here before the American Revolution "you ain't nothin'."
 
That's happened in a lot of places.

A local manufacturer in a near-by town moved it's manufacturing to Thailand. Their employment in town dropped from 4000 to 400 (all non-union). Many people are moving out of town, home prices have dropped to what they were 15 to 20 years ago. Farm retirees are about the only people moving into town. Restaurants in town are closing because sales are dropping (eating out is a discresionary luxury). Most of the restarants left are fast food and oriental food. Clothing stores are hurting, Walmart, Shopko and Target are doing OK.

Japan went through the same thing in the late 1980's, that country still has not recovered.
 
We need growth in the US because we are breeding like rabbits and have open borders that allow the masses to come here and suck up our social services.

I reach retirement age about the time SS goes broke. I want lots of new tax payers to take up the slack.
 
(quoted from post at 09:56:10 08/12/12) Those companies aren't moving because union wages
are breaking them, they are moving to increase
there profits. Where will they go for customers
when they have reduced the standard of living so
far down that no one in U.S. can afford their
products? I guess they will head to China or India
and we will be living in a 3rd world situation.
All you guys that hate unions should look at the
statistics showing the decline of unions and the
decline of wages for all the middle class and the
corresponding increase in corporate profits over
the last 30 years. Unions aren't perfect, but
until someone can come up with a better idea to
increase the standard of living for middle class
or at least keep it from declining further, they
are the best we got.
Click to expand...

No high wages do in fact force companies to move operations off shore. If you make a TV here at US labor cost and I have mine built in Korea you are not going to be able to come close to my prices. Can't compete, lose money go broke and the business gets broke up and sold for pennies on the dollar. Everyone loses. The upper management, mid managers, supervisors, workers and anyone who may own stock in the company. Just the way it works.

You can lay some of the blame on people who only pick an item based on cheapest price with little or no reguard of quality.

Rick
 
(quoted from post at 22:34:13 08/12/12)
(quoted from post at 09:56:10 08/12/12) Those companies aren't moving because union wages
are breaking them, they are moving to increase
there profits. Where will they go for customers
when they have reduced the standard of living so
far down that no one in U.S. can afford their
products? I guess they will head to China or India
and we will be living in a 3rd world situation.
All you guys that hate unions should look at the
statistics showing the decline of unions and the
decline of wages for all the middle class and the
corresponding increase in corporate profits over
the last 30 years. Unions aren't perfect, but
until someone can come up with a better idea to
increase the standard of living for middle class
or at least keep it from declining further, they
are the best we got.
Click to expand...

No high wages do in fact force companies to move operations off shore. If you make a TV here at US labor cost and I have mine built in Korea you are not going to be able to come close to my prices. Can't compete, lose money go broke and the business gets broke up and sold for pennies on the dollar. Everyone loses. The upper management, mid managers, supervisors, workers and anyone who may own stock in the company. Just the way it works.

You can lay some of the blame on people who only pick an item based on cheapest price with little or no reguard of quality.

Rick
Click to expand...
ust like I said, hours back, high cost of labor, high cost of govt regulation, & high taxes to support all the "freebies" result in businesses closing up shop or moving out of the USA. Don't blame businesses. What would you do? Stay and go bankrupt? Either way, the jobs are still going to be gone.
 
Yes but 40 years ago average farm size was about 200 acres so for every 200 acres you needed a couple tractors, planter, cultivator, sprayer, combine,,,,well you get the picture. Now one tractor and combine takes care 2000 acres. So, we only need one tenth the dealers we needed 40 years ago. And if you look around, that's about what we have. Every thing is relative.
 
(quoted from post at 16:21:54 08/12/12)As for the jobs the nnalert supposedly didn't vote for, which state were those in and what jobs were to be created?? And what was the union that didn't want those jobs? Just curious.
Click to expand...

Wisconsin. Mining jobs were on the line. Iron ore and related jobs in northern Wisconsin and heavy equipment manufacturing jobs in southeastern Wisconsin as well as all the related support jobs in between. All unions told their members to oppose the legislation and to vote against any and all nnalert in the elections (yes, ALL unions, I dont know of a single union that told its members to vote nnalert or to support the mining bill, if anybody has info to the contrary, please let me know).

Its strange too because the nnalert usually are for jobs and the unions are usually strongly in favor of great union paying jobs but because of the recall election for our governor being right about the time of the new mining legislation, the nnalert decided to take a stance directally opposite of the governor, no matter the reason. In this case, the nnalert were forced to oppose a huge number of great paying union jobs just to deny a "victory" to a nnalert governor. The nnalert played off the reason for the opposition as a "natural resource issue" or a "pollution" issue, even though its a known fact that it was a non-issue due to FEDERAL laws that would have stopped short any pollution issues before they popped up. The unions took the same opposing stance but for different reasons.... simply because they didnt like the governor and past laws that he signed, they wanted to fight him.

In the end, Gogebic Taconite decided to concentrate its efforts elsewhere and pulled out its bid for a mine in northern Wisconsin. Just too much red tape and too much of an anti-business sediment being shown by the nnalert in office to make it worth while. Besides, its not like that iron ore is going anywhere, Gogebic Taconite will just wait till the nnalert prove to them a mine and with it, lots of really great paying jobs are wanted. But who loses? You think those fat cat nnalert are going to skip any meals because there are no jobs in northern Wisconsin? Nah, they will eat plenty good, probably even better because they are being courted by the teachers union lobbyists. No, the people suffering are all the ones who WANTED the mine.... the ones in northern Wisconsin that LIVE there. The ones that due to reduced tourism dollars are lucky to get through the winter. Think the teachers care? Not a wit, all they care is they went against what the sitting governor agreed with simply because he signed a law that the teachers didnt like.

History will prove me right or wrong but I think the teachers union (and the other unions) and the nnalert really stepped on their d1cks over this one. Just comming out of the riots in Madison the year before and then over this issue, they really burned a ton of political capitol and goodwill from the general public. Just when they think they have the backing of the general public, they pull this and it backfires. Dont they ever take polls to see what the population thinks? I bet the union takes it in the chin with membership numbers too. Talk about a Pyrrhic victory.
 
(quoted from post at 22:02:37 08/12/12)
(quoted from post at 16:21:54 08/12/12)As for the jobs the nnalert supposedly didn't vote for, which state were those in and what jobs were to be created?? And what was the union that didn't want those jobs? Just curious.
Click to expand...

Wisconsin. Mining jobs were on the line. Iron ore and related jobs in northern Wisconsin and heavy equipment manufacturing jobs in southeastern Wisconsin as well as all the related support jobs in between. All unions told their members to oppose the legislation and to vote against any and all nnalert in the elections (yes, ALL unions, I dont know of a single union that told its members to vote nnalert or to support the mining bill, if anybody has info to the contrary, please let me know).

Its strange too because the nnalert usually are for jobs and the unions are usually strongly in favor of great union paying jobs but because of the recall election for our governor being right about the time of the new mining legislation, the nnalert decided to take a stance directally opposite of the governor, no matter the reason. In this case, the nnalert were forced to oppose a huge number of great paying union jobs just to deny a "victory" to a nnalert governor. The nnalert played off the reason for the opposition as a "natural resource issue" or a "pollution" issue, even though its a known fact that it was a non-issue due to FEDERAL laws that would have stopped short any pollution issues before they popped up. The unions took the same opposing stance but for different reasons.... simply because they didnt like the governor and past laws that he signed, they wanted to fight him.

In the end, Gogebic Taconite decided to concentrate its efforts elsewhere and pulled out its bid for a mine in northern Wisconsin. Just too much red tape and too much of an anti-business sediment being shown by the nnalert in office to make it worth while. Besides, its not like that iron ore is going anywhere, Gogebic Taconite will just wait till the nnalert prove to them a mine and with it, lots of really great paying jobs are wanted. But who loses? You think those fat cat nnalert are going to skip any meals because there are no jobs in northern Wisconsin? Nah, they will eat plenty good, probably even better because they are being courted by the teachers union lobbyists. No, the people suffering are all the ones who WANTED the mine.... the ones in northern Wisconsin that LIVE there. The ones that due to reduced tourism dollars are lucky to get through the winter. Think the teachers care? Not a wit, all they care is they went against what the sitting governor agreed with simply because he signed a law that the teachers didnt like.

History will prove me right or wrong but I think the teachers union (and the other unions) and the nnalert really stepped on their d1cks over this one. Just comming out of the riots in Madison the year before and then over this issue, they really burned a ton of political capitol and goodwill from the general public. Just when they think they have the backing of the general public, they pull this and it backfires. Dont they ever take polls to see what the population thinks? I bet the union takes it in the chin with membership numbers too. Talk about a Pyrrhic victory.
Click to expand...


Rich got it right. The nnalert oppose anything the EPA and OHSHA says is bad. Now I'm Not saying that some of the EPA and OSAH rega ain't good.....some are. But they have now hit a point where they are costing US jobs....the same jobs the nnalert have sworn to protect. All the while yelling that the rich....where top 10% pay over 1/2 of the taxes collected are not paying their fair share. And the unions are hurting people. Look at the sugar beat workers. Been out on strike for a year. They are going to have to pull in a BIG pay raise to break even after no pay for a year. All cause the union told them they could make more. I've always been an independent voter. But I;m thinking of registering as a nnalert.


Rick
 
Teah, some people say the economy is improving but it must be in DC cause I don't know where else its happening. Anybody notice fuel lately? I cannot speak for the rest of the nation but regular gasoline was $3.35 here on July 24 and its $3.75 now. 12 percent or so increase in two weeks? (Guess its that CHANCE of hurricanes again). $10000 used vehicles, $700 per month rent and few jobs at any wage (whats the definition of a good paying job these days anyway when alot of people just want one?) not to mention food, utilities,medical expenses, etc etc. You can lock 100 politicians with Harvard law degrees in a room with the current statistics and they would never figure out why the economy is in fact stalling.
 
The problem is, all the public sector construction work is union (or "prevailing wage" if non-union- so same difference). And you get no "bang for the buck" when you're paying a union laborer 36 bucks an hour to lean on a shovel.

People wonder why we can't rebuild our crumbling infrastructure with something like the WPA of the 30's- but those days are gone forever. Now, the simplest project requires years of planning and permitting, countless agencies to coordinate, then outrageous construction costs.
 
I see what your saying, but, still, even here in Michgan new car sales are up! What recession? RV sales, boat sales, all up. Not from me but someone still has cash. I don't get it. Everywhere I go I see new trucks pulling boats going to the summer cabin. Oh, and as far as union jobs go. I've been union for 22 years. 5 of the last 6 years I had a bargained for wage freeze and I pay 1/3 of my benefits. 36-45$ hr?? I wish!! If you want a perfect example of the result of wage cuts look at SaginawSteering Gear/ now Nexteer (China) All jobs cut to 14$ hr or less and Saginaw is an even bigger ghetto because of it. Its not just unions, its everywhere. Its lowereing of the avg annual income in general. Where I work all new UNION hires make 8.50 hr and if their nice then go to 10$ with NO benny's.
 
(quoted from post at 18:46:22 08/13/12) I see what your saying, but, still, even here in Michgan new car sales are up! What recession? RV sales, boat sales, all up. Not from me but someone still has cash. I don't get it. Everywhere I go I see new trucks pulling boats going to the summer cabin. Oh, and as far as union jobs go. I've been union for 22 years. 5 of the last 6 years I had a bargained for wage freeze and I pay 1/3 of my benefits. 36-45$ hr?? I wish!! If you want a perfect example of the result of wage cuts look at SaginawSteering Gear/ now Nexteer (China) All jobs cut to 14$ hr or less and Saginaw is an even bigger ghetto because of it. Its not just unions, its everywhere. Its lowereing of the avg annual income in general. Where I work all new UNION hires make 8.50 hr and if their nice then go to 10$ with NO benny's.
Click to expand...
I would not advise any young person to go into manufacturing, in any capacity. No matter what, you are competing against the world, and in the long term, manufacturing jobs will pay world wages. Doctors, lawyers and indian chiefs are somewhat insulated. $10 per hour in Michigan is darn near starvation level. It gets pretty cold here!!
 
Just wait, the real fun is coming soon. Very soon. Israel said today that Sept. 28th is their deadline. One shot over there and gas doubles overnight.

I'm predicting economic collapse prior to Romney being sworn in.
 
(quoted from post at 21:46:22 08/13/12) I see what your saying, but, still, even here in Michgan new car sales are up! What recession? RV sales, boat sales, all up. Not from me but someone still has cash. I don't get it. Everywhere I go I see new trucks pulling boats going to the summer cabin. Oh, and as far as union jobs go. I've been union for 22 years. 5 of the last 6 years I had a bargained for wage freeze and I pay 1/3 of my benefits. 36-45$ hr?? I wish!! If you want a perfect example of the result of wage cuts look at SaginawSteering Gear/ now Nexteer (China) All jobs cut to 14$ hr or less and Saginaw is an even bigger ghetto because of it. Its not just unions, its everywhere. Its lowereing of the avg annual income in general. [b:916707d945]Where I work all new UNION hires make 8.50 hr and if their nice then go to 10$ with NO benny's.[/b:916707d945]
Click to expand...

I'm not union,... but, I am "NICE", when do I get my raise?
 
(quoted from post at 23:40:21 08/13/12)
(quoted from post at 18:46:22 08/13/12) I see what your saying, but, still, even here in Michgan new car sales are up! What recession? RV sales, boat sales, all up. Not from me but someone still has cash. I don't get it. Everywhere I go I see new trucks pulling boats going to the summer cabin. Oh, and as far as union jobs go. I've been union for 22 years. 5 of the last 6 years I had a bargained for wage freeze and I pay 1/3 of my benefits. 36-45$ hr?? I wish!! If you want a perfect example of the result of wage cuts look at SaginawSteering Gear/ now Nexteer (China) All jobs cut to 14$ hr or less and Saginaw is an even bigger ghetto because of it. Its not just unions, its everywhere. Its lowereing of the avg annual income in general. Where I work all new UNION hires make 8.50 hr and if their nice then go to 10$ with NO benny's.
Click to expand...

Well, the pendulum is swinging back to market-based wages. If you offer jobs at $10 and got people lining up around the block to take those jobs, then you're "market based". If you're one of those people and don't like it, my suggestion is to get an education, learn a trade or skill that will make you more marketable. Otherwise, they should quit complaining.

I've got 2 daughters (one lawyer, one in her last year of law school) who EACH make more (or will make in the case of the law student) than my wife and I put together and one is 30, the other is 24. They work their tails off, have hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt, with lots of liability/responsibility to their clients. They don't owe an explanation or apology to anyone for being in the top 1% income bracket. They live/work in DC which is an extremely high cost-of-living area. Do I think we have too many lawyers? Absolutely, but it's not my daughters' fault. It's the society we live in. There is a female personal injury lawyer in Detroit whose firm has over 3,000 ACTIVE PERSONAL INJURY CASES! That's ONE law firm in ONE city in this country. We are suit happy.

My one daughter strictly handles health care compliance law for major manufacturers. Our government keeps her busy trying to keep her clients up to date on constantly changing regulations, rules, pricing, etc. She says they get regulation changes on a WEEKLY (sometimes DAILY) basis. So, her clients have to spend millions of dollars a year on lawyers because some bureaucrats in Washington keep changing the rules. Who pays that bill? You and I do when we buy their products.

Another example is the new rule that will require EVERY car to have backup cameras in 2014. It will cost new car buyers an extra $ 2billion PER YEAR! You won't have a choice, which is the maddening thing.

BTW, I just bought a new car and it's got a backup camera and it is the most useless thing I've ever had. It is no substitute for common sense looking around you when you're backing up. I have always owned Big 3 cars (last 40 years) and I just bought my first Nissan (made in Mexico). I vowed to never buy GM or Chrysler again after the bankruptcy cases where external_link ordered the judge to screw over secured creditors in favor of the unions and went a step further and GAVE the unions majority ownership in GM and Chrysler.

As for the OP's theme: the demise of local shopping choices are in large part to new technology (Internet shopping, UPS/FEDEX efficient delivery) and everyone's access to it. The demise of local mfg is due to similar technology increases (computerization of everything, efficiencies in overseas shipping through containerization, high-speed communication to far-flung areas of the globe) as well as our nanny governements over-regulation of everything. Try to start a business and see what permits and hoops you have to jump through to comply with zoning laws, EPA laws, OSHA, etc.
Click to expand...
 
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