Rural water

notjustair · Jul 22, 2012

I am on rural water at the end of the line. There's just enough pressure for showers but the garden hose is powerful slow. Legalities aside (and rules etc), can a pump and pressure tank be put on such a system to pull water through faster? Neighbor is on the water board so if it would work I can bounce it off her.

I am very thankful to not have to worry about a well in this drought.

Lou from Wi. · Jul 22, 2012

try an inline water booster pump.
LOU

Rich_WI · Jul 22, 2012

The plumber that did the sprinkler pressure testing used to use water instead of air because air took too long to pump up. He used a small pump attached to a motor and it pulled like there was no tomarrow. When he had that on filling the sprinkler pipes, you couldnt get water more than a trickle anywhere else. In fact on the 6th floor one time I opened a valve and it sucked air.

So, yes, you can put a pump on and it will pull water into your house. I dont know what brand he had or anything but I suspect he just made it in the shop with spare parts.

Lou from Wi. · Jul 22, 2012

heres a couple to look at
http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200311411_200311411

http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200352047_200352047

Hope it helps
LOU

FBH44 · Jul 22, 2012

If they know their beans, you"ll have to isntall a backflow preventer valve. There"s two kinds. Has to be installed by a state-certified installer, and re-tested annually. It"ll be a little expensive, but it"ll protect the other customers from you (or any other customer) inadvertently pumping back into the system.

Tim in OR · Jul 22, 2012

I used to work with a guy who had a problem with low flow on his well. He installed a 300 gallon tank with a float switch at the pump. He restricted the flow into the tank to about 3/8" so the well could pump all day at that flow. Next he put a pump from the tank to the house. It worked like a charm as long as they were careful to not outrun the volume in the tank. The sweet part was that the well was uphill from the house. He rebuilt the pump house to put the tank about 5" above the pump. That make it gravity flow to the house when the power was out. Only 300 gallons, but lots better than none.
Tim in OR

PJH · Jul 22, 2012

Tim - we use a system similar to what you describe, only the well dribbles into a 2000 gallon cistern with a stock tank float on the inlet. It supplies water to all of our outside hydrants. Works like a champ - been in service for 22 years. However - there's probably restrictions about running city water into a holding tank. Here in our neighborhood, we have to prove by visual inspection that we have no interconnect between the municipal water source and any well/cistern/tank. I guess after the visual inspection you could do whatever you wanted, but it could come back to bite you. . .

jimva · Jul 22, 2012

File a complaint with the water board about low pressure and you want it fixed since your paying for water and the problem is on there side of the meter. A couple things will happen. 1) The water board will fix it at there cost. 2) They will tell you how to fix it at your cost.

The water board in this area is good at fixing problems with pressure, leaks, etc, UNLESS its on your side of the meter.

Anonymous-0 · Jul 23, 2012

Pass the question to the water board,they should at least establish on which side of the meter is at fault,may also give you the solution.

oliver power · Jul 23, 2012

That is exactly how they get water preasure to upper floors of tall buildings. A simple well type water pump........

Greg1959 · Jul 23, 2012

Our rural water company requires pressure regulators on the water supply line coming into the house. Also, the water company installs a pressure regulator at the meter too. If you have one,or two regulators, they could be cranked down too low. Thus, the low water pressure.

My brother-in-law opened his up too much and blew the hot water tank plus several lines underneath his house.

John T · Jul 23, 2012

Sure, you can raise the pressure, but that may come at the sacrifice of CFM. Your utility supply only has X PSI at X CFM of water available rememember, you cant use a pump and end up with more pressure and flow, theres ONLY X amount of water (PSI at CFM) available. UNLESS you have a reservoir (tank or cistern etc) to store utility water and then you can pump more then the utility supplies until the storage tank runs out that is !!!!!!!!!

Utilities frown on your connection to any other water sources which could contaminate their supply, theyre kinda funny that way ya know so best study the situation (if youre gonna use bulk storage) and study anti backflow requirements etc.

PS just like an electric conductor drops voltage according to its resistance, when you put pressure (voltage) into a pipe and create flow (current) theres a pressure drop (voltage drop) proportional to the resistance of flow IE BIGGER PIPES DROP LESS PRESSURE

John T

massey333 · Jul 23, 2012

There is where you are wrong John,the second pump will in some cases double the flow and PSI at the discharge.They will overcome the pipe restrictions from the first source.A 1/2HP booster pump will pump more water then a 1 or 2HP pump will provide.

jackinok · Jul 23, 2012

listen to john t,you cant get more water out than you put in.you may wind up with a line that surges as it gets water then dies then surges again.it could be that you have trash in your meter/line since you are at the end .i would have the watter people check it first.it could be something as simple as flushing the line.

John T · Jul 23, 2012

Cool, thanks for the info Im electrical NOT a plumber lol STILL I just dont see how you get more water (PSI at X CFM)or say gallons per hour at X PSI etc etc then is available from the utility however???????

You can transform electrical energy but still get no more watts (volts x amps) at the output then you had at the input, how can you get more PSI without reducing the CFM flow?? Still a mystery to em but again IM NOT A PLUMBER GRRRRRR

Thanks, fun chat Im never too old to learn and appreciate your help (even if I still dont understand it grrrrrrr)

John T

dhermesc · Jul 23, 2012

As always the correct answer is "it depends".

How big is the line that comes to the meter and how big is the line from the meter to the house?

If you have a 4" line to the meter and a 1" line going to the house an inline booster pump will do you some good - especially if it’s a long run from the meter to your house. If you have a 2" line to the meter and a 2" line to the house you won't gain much with just an inline pump.

We thought about installing a pump on our line as the house is on a huge hill - with the valve set to max pressure at the meter we only have average pressure at the house - but the hydrant that is half way up the hill puts out water like a fire hydrant.

dhermesc · Jul 23, 2012

That's only if the line to the meter and to the house are the same size. If the water line to the meter is 4" at 40 PSI you can double the pressure to 80 PSI to the line from the meter to the house and (if it is 2" or smaller) and have more than enough water to avoid surging.

Nice article on the subject.

http://www.finehomebuilding.com/how-to/articles/improving-water-pressure.aspx

jackinok · Jul 23, 2012

the real problem is simply the water meter,its not as simple as just hooking directly to a say 2" main line for instance. water meters are ofen 3/4" and have restrictors inside,built in. You simply cant pull more water through them. putting a inline pump in there sort of limits you to what the water meter allows you to pull through it. you may raise the pressure some but probably not what you might expect. length of line,size of line,uphill, down hill,even the way the pipes are hooked up under your house can effect water pressure. A water softener can be a real water restrictor sometimes. If this is a new home and pressure has always been low,try bypassing the water softener.If that doesnt help,its likely the main might have low pressure. But an older home could be any number of things. quite honestly,not being mean here,a good plumber might save you a lot of money experimenting.

rustyfarmall · Jul 23, 2012

(quoted from post at 05:05:39 07/23/12) Our rural water company requires pressure regulators on the water supply line coming into the house. Also, the water company installs a pressure regulator at the meter too. If you have one,or two regulators, they could be cranked down too low. Thus, the low water pressure.

My brother-in-law opened his up too much and blew the hot water tank plus several lines underneath his house.

Yes, I had the same problem with water pressure. Adjusted that regulator and made a big difference. I gave that adjustment screw just 1/2 turn at a time and made sure I didn't have any leaks anywhere before I gave it another 1/2 turn. I think I ended up with about 4 full turns over a period of several days before I had the pressure I wanted at the end of about 300 feet of garden hose. That was all about 5 or 6 years ago, and still no leaks or drips anywhere.

massey333 · Jul 23, 2012

John,the first pump(source)doesn't have any(as much)head press and the second has no pumping needs and so moves water much faster overcoming pipe friction and the second pump makes all the pressure.It is almost the same as electric wire loss and needing a transformer to reboost(voltage and amp) current at the end.

jackinok · Jul 23, 2012

One thing to check,IF, you have adequate pressure in the rest of the house,and the problem lies just in this one sillcock,it could be as simple as the bibb screw on the end of the stem being loose. or of the wrong size,ive seen that cut way down on the flow from a sill cock.you may check, and while your at it turn the water on with the stem out and flush that line. might help.

buickanddeere · Jul 23, 2012

What is the line size into your home amount of elbows and what kind of valves? A ball or gate valve does not restrict flow.
What is the unrestricted free flow rate per minute?
As previously stated a booster pump and pressure tank is the answer.
Recently seen on the market an ordinary shallow well pump with a variable frequency drive . It will dial the Rpm"s up and down to maintain pressure.

Texasmark1 · Jul 23, 2012

Every ball valve I ever saw will.

El Toro · Jul 23, 2012

Have you ever measured the water pressure? I'm on town water and about a mile from center of town and our pressure was 60psi the last time I measured it. These homes were built back in the 1960's. Do you have copper pipes? Hal

Walt Davies · Jul 23, 2012

Everything depends on the size of the main line and how many houses are on it and the drop or rise from the source. Talk to your provider and see what they suggest? Without this information all we can do make WAGs
Walt

mkirsch · Jul 23, 2012

(quoted from post at 06:10:11 07/23/12) Cool, thanks for the info Im electrical NOT a plumber lol STILL I just dont see how you get more water (PSI at X CFM)or say gallons per hour at X PSI etc etc then is available from the utility however???????

What you're missing is that the booster pump is ADDING "energy" to the system.

You're thinking of the booster pump like a transformer. The booster pump is more like an electrical generator. Adding another generator to the power grid increases the available Watts, just like adding a pump to the water system increases the available flow.

As long as there is sufficient water at the supply end to keep the pipe full, the booster pump will indeed provide more PSI and CFM than the municipal pumping station is providing.

kyplowboy · Jul 23, 2012

Not sure what state you are in but as a water treatment plant operator by night I can tell you that putting a pump on the county's line is a bad idea. When you are pulling it will cause a large drop in pressure back the line a ways. Anything under 20psi in the system is considered unsafe in the state of KY and reason for a boil water order.

With the legal and safety stuff out of the way, here's a practical answer to your question. If you have enough pressure in the house, just not outside for garden hose type applications it would be ok for you to fill a tank and then pump out if it with a pump/bladder tank type set up. Untill we got county water back here where I live the well at my grandmother's house would not make enough water at one time to take a shower with. We had her system rigged up with two pumps. The deep well pump was rigged up with a timer and a float. It pumped water into a 400 gallon pickup bed style tank in the basement. It ran 1 minute twice an hour, if the tank got full the float would shut it down till some water was out. We had a second pump set up with a bladder tank to pressurize the sysetm in the house with water pulled from the tank.

Good luck.

Dave

kyplowboy · Jul 23, 2012

If the problem is caused by too small a pipe on a rural road with too many people on it you are right, a pump will fix his problem but make more.

Every time it turns on and pulls more volume than the pressure provided by the utility every one else on that line beteen his house and the larger main that feeds his line will see a huge drop in pressure to the point some my hear a sucking sound then they turn the kitchen sink on.

If every one else on the road doesn't have the proper back flow preventers in place does he really want to be pulling what ever they have go'n on into his house?

Really needs to find out what is cause'n the low pressure. It may be too small of a line between his house and meter, may be on the county's end, may be that the line just needs to be flushed really really well.

Dave

kendak · Jul 23, 2012

I'm a water operator on a rural water system & you need to go to a board meeting & complain....your system could be overloaded or the engineer could have messed up on the hydrolics...thank goodness my system runs 65psi static all over....health dept. here in Miss. require flushing dead end lines once a mo...complain to your flush man or meter reader...the more & loud you get the quicker something will get done...ask me how I know!!

gwstang · Jul 23, 2012

(quoted from post at 18:26:06 07/23/12) I'm a water operator on a rural water system & you need to go to a board meeting & complain....your system could be overloaded or the engineer could have messed up on the hydrolics...thank goodness my system runs 65psi static all over....health dept. here in Miss. require flushing dead end lines once a mo...complain to your flush man or meter reader...the more & loud you get the quicker something will get done...ask me how I know!!

Dang! We have several water plant operators on here. I also run a 12 mgd surface water plant in central Alabama.
Don't know if you have ever seen one, but this is a "microfloc" plant (by US Filter) and the water from hitting the raw water intake to the clearwell is only about 10-15 minutes depending on the rate at the time (no settling basins and high rate dual media filters). We also went from alum to ferric and that stuff is almighty. I've also worked at conventionl treatment plants so I know how they work too and have seen raw turb. up to 600 plus. Looks like mud going through the flocculators on those conventional plants. We work 7 days/12 hr shifts then off 7 days. Swap days to nights every other month. I have enough for retirement at 29 years and counting (only need 25 yrs here on state retirement system we are on) just waiting another 10 years or so for ss to kick in...if it's still there...lol We feed the entire county plus a few small paying systems and did have a few areas with lower psi. The distribution experts installed a couple of "helper" stations and then those people started complaining about pressure being too high. Doesn't seem to be any middle ground there.

kyplowboy · Jul 23, 2012

We work 12s too, just glad we don't have to do the swing thing!! Ours is broke up two or three days at time (unless some one is on vacation) with three one week, four the next. I have been on nights for 7 and a half years now.

I'd love to see how your place works. Mine is a 4mgd plant that was built by a commitee on a budget. We have in house built walker cones, they got around the patent laws by leave'n out the concentrators. Our in-gen-ear/church janitor said we didn't need them,,,,,,

Dave

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