Built my place in 93. Did most of the work myself so I know whats in it. 2 x 6 walls with 1 inch foam on out side. Ceiling has 18 inches at least of fibreglass. Scissor trusses in center for a vaulted ceiling. One story ranch. I though I did everything right. Low "E" windows, foam, sufficient attic venting, 93% high eff. furnace. But man, my AC runs alot! Granted we are in a HEAT WAVE in Mich but with 95 deg and mild breeze my air runs every ten minutes set at 77, shades drawn, little in and out traffic. In the winter, a 30deg day with a breeze is worse than a 15deg calm day. I know my windows are of poor quality(my fault, Caradco junk) but I figured I had an really efficient set up. I'm thinking of paying the $3-400 for an energy consult to see where my losses are. I just don't see my design as such a bad one. My folks live next door in a 1967 ranch, brick face 2x4 const with new windows (Marvin) and do way better than me! What gives??
- Thread starter redtom
- Start date
Jimmy King
Well-known Member
I think you just said it windows.
Gene Stevens Oh-Tx
Member
Have the power company check...should not cost you anything.
Ninety five degree weather is probably the worst case limit for AC design in Mighigan. Are your AC bills abnormally high or is just that your AC unit just running a lot but your bills are still reasonable? Your AC may just be designed on the smaller side for minimum initial investment and higher energy efficiency.
If your winter heating bills and your summer cooling bills are both high then your insulation or windows may be a problem. If your winter heating costs are reasonable I wouldn't get too excited about the AC costs. In Michigan you will have a lot more heating-degree-days than cooling-degree-days.
Even very high efficiency windows only have an R value of R-2 to R-3 maximum. That's still very low compared to the R-19 in your walls and the R-38 in your ceilings. Closing the shades, drapes or blinds can double the R-value of any window.
Many utility companies will give their customers homes a free energy efficiency inspection and a written report for free. I've had one done and I learned a lot, both the pro's and the con's about my house. Check with your gas company or electric company for a free audit.
Those "saver switches" can knock 5% to 20% off your cooling bills too.
If your winter heating bills and your summer cooling bills are both high then your insulation or windows may be a problem. If your winter heating costs are reasonable I wouldn't get too excited about the AC costs. In Michigan you will have a lot more heating-degree-days than cooling-degree-days.
Even very high efficiency windows only have an R value of R-2 to R-3 maximum. That's still very low compared to the R-19 in your walls and the R-38 in your ceilings. Closing the shades, drapes or blinds can double the R-value of any window.
Many utility companies will give their customers homes a free energy efficiency inspection and a written report for free. I've had one done and I learned a lot, both the pro's and the con's about my house. Check with your gas company or electric company for a free audit.
Those "saver switches" can knock 5% to 20% off your cooling bills too.
evilboweviel
Member
at 95 degf your A/C should not shut off at all
as to the winter, you probably need better windows
get an energy study with a blowerdoor done it will show you what you need to do to cut your loses due to air leakage in or out
good luck
Ron
as to the winter, you probably need better windows
get an energy study with a blowerdoor done it will show you what you need to do to cut your loses due to air leakage in or out
good luck
Ron
Just a few random thoughts here...
Assuming you have can lights and an attic access door - are they sealed? Check your attic insulation around a can light and if it shows signs of dirt, you have an air leak. Heat travels to cold (or so I"ve been told...) so there should be some telltale signs somewhere.
The greater the temperature differential, the more the heat will travel. Also, the more your AC will run - you didn"t say where you keep the t-stat set, just a thought.
Sounds like the place is well insulated. Is there a possibility you"re not getting the benefit of cool night air? In other words, when it cools off at night your house is still harboring hot air that has not escaped or is insulated enough from the outside that it does not cool? Insulation works both ways.
I know the vaulted ceilings do a great job of stratifying the air - one reason older houses with high ceilings seemed to cool better. I"ve found that running the ceiling fan in the rooms sends the hot air back down (don"t know if you have these or not). We keep them off in the summer unless temps are right. Read a study somewhere that found ceiling fans do not help at all with energy savings unless they are used to cool the occupant below them, letting the t-stat be set to a more efficient setting. Once you leave the room, they don"t help.
Last... the shades are a good idea, but better is to shade the house or shade the windows from the exterior.
Good luck.
Tony
Assuming you have can lights and an attic access door - are they sealed? Check your attic insulation around a can light and if it shows signs of dirt, you have an air leak. Heat travels to cold (or so I"ve been told...) so there should be some telltale signs somewhere.
The greater the temperature differential, the more the heat will travel. Also, the more your AC will run - you didn"t say where you keep the t-stat set, just a thought.
Sounds like the place is well insulated. Is there a possibility you"re not getting the benefit of cool night air? In other words, when it cools off at night your house is still harboring hot air that has not escaped or is insulated enough from the outside that it does not cool? Insulation works both ways.
I know the vaulted ceilings do a great job of stratifying the air - one reason older houses with high ceilings seemed to cool better. I"ve found that running the ceiling fan in the rooms sends the hot air back down (don"t know if you have these or not). We keep them off in the summer unless temps are right. Read a study somewhere that found ceiling fans do not help at all with energy savings unless they are used to cool the occupant below them, letting the t-stat be set to a more efficient setting. Once you leave the room, they don"t help.
Last... the shades are a good idea, but better is to shade the house or shade the windows from the exterior.
Good luck.
Tony
Richard G.
Well-known Member
Best thing I ever did on the house was put good old storm windows outside over the old windows. The cold wind can be blowing and if the storm windows are closed, I can open the inside window and still not feel the cold wind. A wise old friend told me years ago, If you keep the cold air from hitting your windows, it makes all the difference in the world.
Richard
Richard
Texasmark1
Well-known Member
From the days of my Heat and AC course, the largest heat loss is flow through. Second is attic, third is walls and windows.
You said that you have little traffic in the house that's good. You have plenty of attic insulation that too is good. However, how much insulation do your attic ducts have? There is a tremendous amount of heat load that can be acquired from duct absorption alone and especially in ranch style homes where the runs are long and of a large diameter, there are a lot of square inches of surface area involved and have to tolerate the 140 degree or so attic temp.
You did not say that those 2x6 walls were filled with insulation and if not that's bad. That 1" of foam is just not that great.
What about your windows? Do they leak? Are they single or double pane. If single do you use drapes, especially on the W side of the house or the new on the marked sun ray blocking screens? Do you have awnings over the windows like you see on trailer houses in Florida?
Does your suction line sweat at the entrance to the condenser as I mentioned in an earlier post today? Are your filters clean?
Does your condenser sit on the W side of the house? If so do you have trees near it to shade it and provide cooler air?
How do the cooling fins look on the evaporator and condenser? Either clogged? On the condenser, what do the fins look like? Are they still straight like when it was new, or are they bent over from being hit by grass clippings or children playing?
A few things to consider,
Mark
You said that you have little traffic in the house that's good. You have plenty of attic insulation that too is good. However, how much insulation do your attic ducts have? There is a tremendous amount of heat load that can be acquired from duct absorption alone and especially in ranch style homes where the runs are long and of a large diameter, there are a lot of square inches of surface area involved and have to tolerate the 140 degree or so attic temp.
You did not say that those 2x6 walls were filled with insulation and if not that's bad. That 1" of foam is just not that great.
What about your windows? Do they leak? Are they single or double pane. If single do you use drapes, especially on the W side of the house or the new on the marked sun ray blocking screens? Do you have awnings over the windows like you see on trailer houses in Florida?
Does your suction line sweat at the entrance to the condenser as I mentioned in an earlier post today? Are your filters clean?
Does your condenser sit on the W side of the house? If so do you have trees near it to shade it and provide cooler air?
How do the cooling fins look on the evaporator and condenser? Either clogged? On the condenser, what do the fins look like? Are they still straight like when it was new, or are they bent over from being hit by grass clippings or children playing?
A few things to consider,
Mark
BANDITFARMER
Well-known Member
What size AC unit do you have and what size unit do the folks next door have? Your AC unit maybe alittle small for your home size. You may need to have the AC unit serviced and cleaned up. An easy way to check for leaks around windows and doors is to lite an insence stick and go around them with and without the air on and you maybe suprised. Bandit
Guess thing are diffrent in diffrent patrts of the country. This hous was built to be energy efficent supper insulation and e windows ect . Our air runs 20 % of the time with the outside temp 95 deg. 3 ton Trane split unit heating and cooling 2900 square ft with large valted celing and windows facing the east. .
Ken Macfarlane
Well-known Member
How many kW a month do you do up once into a/c season?
Dean Olson
Well-known Member
I live in a 1900 sq ft ranch style house in Richmond TX. Built in 1984 with no energy conservation construction at all. In 100 degree weather the house would not cool below 80. We didn't stay very comfortable when it was really hot.
We cool here 9 months out of the year with 3-4 months of 90-100 degrees.
My electric bill used to run $350-450/month. Last year I replaced all the siding,windows and doors. I also installed a high efficiency AC unit. We now stay cool and comfortable and the electric bill runs $200-300 now.
My old unit would run 24/7 when it was hot. It never did catch up. The new one runs a lot also but not as much and it catches up and hold a consistent temp inside.
Your heat wave is the norm for us down here. I suspect that your AC unit is 20 years old? outdated technology, and or may need to be serviced. Your Folks unit may be newer and in better shape.
My AC guy did the energy efficiency inspection for no charge. Granted I've dealt with him for a lot of years and he replaced my AC.
We cool here 9 months out of the year with 3-4 months of 90-100 degrees.
My electric bill used to run $350-450/month. Last year I replaced all the siding,windows and doors. I also installed a high efficiency AC unit. We now stay cool and comfortable and the electric bill runs $200-300 now.
My old unit would run 24/7 when it was hot. It never did catch up. The new one runs a lot also but not as much and it catches up and hold a consistent temp inside.
Your heat wave is the norm for us down here. I suspect that your AC unit is 20 years old? outdated technology, and or may need to be serviced. Your Folks unit may be newer and in better shape.
My AC guy did the energy efficiency inspection for no charge. Granted I've dealt with him for a lot of years and he replaced my AC.
Texasmark1
Well-known Member
18" of glass is a lot of insulation. Down here the only cellulose you see would be in some new homes and depending on the contractor, or after market contracting. Folks going to the building supply centers buy either bats or rolls of glass. Owens Corning has a plant south of Dallas and puts out a lot of glass insulation. Don't know where you get your information but the R numbers are traceable and don't lie.
Mark
Mark
down here in the south..
the ac should run almost continuous if designed correctly. It cost you most to start it and thats a huge loss. It need to run long to dehumidify the air. Any ac that short cycles is a money hog and is usually too big for the area it cools.
So...a correctly designed ac should run long cycles on and do its job correctly. Newer ac/s can turn the fan speeds up and down to help.
the ac should run almost continuous if designed correctly. It cost you most to start it and thats a huge loss. It need to run long to dehumidify the air. Any ac that short cycles is a money hog and is usually too big for the area it cools.
So...a correctly designed ac should run long cycles on and do its job correctly. Newer ac/s can turn the fan speeds up and down to help.
I have all new windows,(low - e Anderson),R-50 insulation in my attic,extra insulation in my sidewalls and styrofoam sheeting under mmy siding. All that and in this present heat wave my house stays at about 78-79 degrees. I had a HAVAC contractor say a house my size, 2,600 sq. ft. with a 3 ton air conditioner would generally cool to 15 degreese below the ambient outside tempture. That was not factoring in the humidity and efficiency of the air conditioner. My air conditioner is an older model but works well. I'd say you are doing alright considering we are in the midst of three diget tempts and high humidity.
buickanddeere
Well-known Member
As previously stated , solar heat gain from windows is a huge AC load. Approx 12 square ft of unshaded south window is like running a 1000 watt electric heater.
The other problem could be humidity from air leakage. An AC works harder to remove moisture from the air than it does to cool the air.
Beats me why so many people run the AC all day drying out the house then they yank the windows open at dusk and let the humidity back in. It's not like they are saving power as the AC doesn't have to cope with the sun at night.
An air leakage test with a 10HP fan mounted in the doorway always shows many large and surprising air leaks.
The other problem could be humidity from air leakage. An AC works harder to remove moisture from the air than it does to cool the air.
Beats me why so many people run the AC all day drying out the house then they yank the windows open at dusk and let the humidity back in. It's not like they are saving power as the AC doesn't have to cope with the sun at night.
An air leakage test with a 10HP fan mounted in the doorway always shows many large and surprising air leaks.
M-MAN
Well-known Member
- Location
- Bostic, NC
HVAC units use 90* degrees as the design temperature of the unit. That means in a perfectly sized system the unit's cooling capacity (btu's) will exactly match the outside air temp & the unit will run constantly. At temps higher than that the unit will lose ground and the inside temp will climb. At lower temps the unit will cycle on and off. That's the way it's supposed to work.
Yours is cycling too much. The ceiling hurts. Change the filter once a month & do not use those expensive 3M filters. They block too much air. Use Fantastic or a similar cleaner to wash the coil's. Plain water from a hose pipe does just as much good as rinsing your car instead of washing it. Lower your thermostat enough to stop that short cycling. That uses a lot more power than running it all the time.
Yours is cycling too much. The ceiling hurts. Change the filter once a month & do not use those expensive 3M filters. They block too much air. Use Fantastic or a similar cleaner to wash the coil's. Plain water from a hose pipe does just as much good as rinsing your car instead of washing it. Lower your thermostat enough to stop that short cycling. That uses a lot more power than running it all the time.
Geo-TH,In
Well-known Member
I installed a power vent on the gable end of my son's house last summer. His A/C now shut off on hot days. He too had vaulted ceilings.
Menards sells a 1500 ft3 power vent for around $150. I put one of those in my pole barn. love it. I installed a 1200 ft3 vent in my son's home.
Menards sells a 1500 ft3 power vent for around $150. I put one of those in my pole barn. love it. I installed a 1200 ft3 vent in my son's home.
Let me expand a little. Stat is set at 77, Walls are 2x6 with fibreglass-6", windows are low E double pane, double hung. Only one facing south. AC is on west side and I believe 3 ton. House is 1600+ sq ft with basement which has a dehumidifer running pretty much non stop in summer. All ducts are in basement. I've been wondering about a powered roof vent and if the electric use is worth it. My roof is almost shot(another long story) so now would be the time to put one in. Got plenty of vented soffit and roof vents and they are clear.
I used to be a mfg rep in the heating-cooling industry. In Mich we use a 15 degree design difference. If it is 90deg out your house should be kept at 75 deg. If its 100 deg it will be kept at 85 deg. They have a much bigger design difference in say Las Vegas where it gets hotter, so they have much larger capacity equipment installed. The very BEST most energy efficient, comfortable heating system is radiant heat (pipes in the floor) and overhead 2 inch ducts blowing cooling from overhead. People have said "That costs too much". I say "Well, I guess you put in single pane windows and no insulation in your walls or ceiling, because it costs too much, right?" Energy costs are never going down, so plan ahead if you can..
Texasmark1
Well-known Member
I don't know where you get your information, you never divulge it.....guess you have your reasons!!!!!!!!!
1. South window heat loss: Down heah in Texas, the sun moves up and over the Northern Hemisphere such that the N. side of the house gets sun in the afternoon with the South side in the shade. Sun on South windows comes in the winter time when the Texas sun is over the Southern Hemisphere when it is welcomed.
2. On humidity, it has no impact on temperature, pere se. It is contained in varying amounts as a function of temperature in the air, warmer the more it can hold without raining, and the more in the air the more discomfort you experience, hence you may turn down the thermostat and in that action up your light bill.....course after it has been running, even for a short time the humidity ceases to be that important to your personal comfort, down heah.
What the humidity DOES do for you, especially with window units like I deliberately use to cool my 2400 sq. ft. home, is to condense the humidity on the evaporator coil whereby it drips down and into the catch pan where it is routed, by the shape of the drip pan and slope of the unit, out to the condenser coil where the slinger ring on the condenser fan picks it up, throws it onto the coil, and through the physics of evaporation doubles my cooling capacity by lowering my condenser temperature which lowers my power consumption required to run my compressor. (How bout that 95ish word dissertation without needed interruption!!!!)
So, like my next door neighbor, you seem to know all there is to know about everything, which is questionable, and if in doubt just ask you and you will verify the finding.
My 2c,
Mark
1. South window heat loss: Down heah in Texas, the sun moves up and over the Northern Hemisphere such that the N. side of the house gets sun in the afternoon with the South side in the shade. Sun on South windows comes in the winter time when the Texas sun is over the Southern Hemisphere when it is welcomed.
2. On humidity, it has no impact on temperature, pere se. It is contained in varying amounts as a function of temperature in the air, warmer the more it can hold without raining, and the more in the air the more discomfort you experience, hence you may turn down the thermostat and in that action up your light bill.....course after it has been running, even for a short time the humidity ceases to be that important to your personal comfort, down heah.
What the humidity DOES do for you, especially with window units like I deliberately use to cool my 2400 sq. ft. home, is to condense the humidity on the evaporator coil whereby it drips down and into the catch pan where it is routed, by the shape of the drip pan and slope of the unit, out to the condenser coil where the slinger ring on the condenser fan picks it up, throws it onto the coil, and through the physics of evaporation doubles my cooling capacity by lowering my condenser temperature which lowers my power consumption required to run my compressor. (How bout that 95ish word dissertation without needed interruption!!!!)
So, like my next door neighbor, you seem to know all there is to know about everything, which is questionable, and if in doubt just ask you and you will verify the finding.
My 2c,
Mark
Texasmark1
Well-known Member
Oh, had a senior moment: Forgot something.
Let's see, the last time I was in my McGraw Hill, EE Handbook, 1 HP at unity power factor was 741 watts. Sooooo 10 HP would be 7140 watts.
Down heah, the line voltage for AC single phase, which most homes are wired for is 120V, give or take. Sooo 7410/120 comes out to 62 amperes on my calculator.
"Beins" most household AC receptacles are designed for 15 to 20 amperes, being wired with # 14 for the former or #20 AWG for the later, I think when you plugged in your 10 hp fan you just blew the breaker out of the breaker box.
Oh you say, I used the Air Cond. receptacle??????? You did? Okaye, now you have a 31 amp max possibility at 240V, which is over 2 tons for a window unit or went outside and had yourself a long extension cord....for that and any length would require at least a #8 with ground, and you had a power adapter to connect to where you disconnected the customer's AC unit and plugged in your fan!!!!!!!!! But did you have a universal adapter?
Where did you go to find the leaks? Did you set the house on fire and check for smoke exiting.
It's currently 1:14 PM down here in N. Texas and I am as sober as a judge.
Mark
Let's see, the last time I was in my McGraw Hill, EE Handbook, 1 HP at unity power factor was 741 watts. Sooooo 10 HP would be 7140 watts.
Down heah, the line voltage for AC single phase, which most homes are wired for is 120V, give or take. Sooo 7410/120 comes out to 62 amperes on my calculator.
"Beins" most household AC receptacles are designed for 15 to 20 amperes, being wired with # 14 for the former or #20 AWG for the later, I think when you plugged in your 10 hp fan you just blew the breaker out of the breaker box.
Oh you say, I used the Air Cond. receptacle??????? You did? Okaye, now you have a 31 amp max possibility at 240V, which is over 2 tons for a window unit or went outside and had yourself a long extension cord....for that and any length would require at least a #8 with ground, and you had a power adapter to connect to where you disconnected the customer's AC unit and plugged in your fan!!!!!!!!! But did you have a universal adapter?
Where did you go to find the leaks? Did you set the house on fire and check for smoke exiting.
It's currently 1:14 PM down here in N. Texas and I am as sober as a judge.
Mark
Texasmark1
Well-known Member
Oh my gosh, another senior moment. Typo: 20 AWG for a 20 amp breaker.............everybody knows that if you put 14 on a 15 amp breaker you can't put 20 on a 20 amp breaker but code does call for a #12 AWG.
Such is life. I was having so much fun, I just lost my head I guess.
Mark
Such is life. I was having so much fun, I just lost my head I guess.
Mark
buickanddeere
Well-known Member
What are you talking about ?
The portable home leak test service is performed by removing a door and installing a temporary door sized fixture in it's place.
The door fixture contains a 10HP 240V fan which is connected at the main breaker panel.
The fixture also has a built in flow meter and manometers to measure inside,outside pressure and delta P.
The crew then searches around the structure with portable "smoke generators" to locate air leaks into the house.
Leak test costs $300 and is eligible for a green energy rebate.
I have doubts about the sober part when you missed power factor and efficiency in your motor wattage and current calculations.
Did you know that in the majority of the US and Canada that the summer sun does shine in the east,south and west windows. With the bulk of the day's heat entering via the south windows.
b.t.w heat gain through a window is heat gain through a window. Why are your roids inflamed over the direction?
The portable home leak test service is performed by removing a door and installing a temporary door sized fixture in it's place.
The door fixture contains a 10HP 240V fan which is connected at the main breaker panel.
The fixture also has a built in flow meter and manometers to measure inside,outside pressure and delta P.
The crew then searches around the structure with portable "smoke generators" to locate air leaks into the house.
Leak test costs $300 and is eligible for a green energy rebate.
I have doubts about the sober part when you missed power factor and efficiency in your motor wattage and current calculations.
Did you know that in the majority of the US and Canada that the summer sun does shine in the east,south and west windows. With the bulk of the day's heat entering via the south windows.
b.t.w heat gain through a window is heat gain through a window. Why are your roids inflamed over the direction?
buickanddeere
Well-known Member
Calculate the amount of energy to boil or condense a gallon of water. Then tell us where your free energy comes from again into your AC unit.
As for over head noon sun in late June. The farthest north that extends in 23 degrees 26 ' north.
You must be a covert Mexican as a small part of Texas only extends south approx 27 degrees 50'.
As for over head noon sun in late June. The farthest north that extends in 23 degrees 26 ' north.
You must be a covert Mexican as a small part of Texas only extends south approx 27 degrees 50'.
Texasmark1
Well-known Member
I didn't miss efficiency and power factor, nor line drop at 31 or 62 amperes, I just kept it simple.
Geez, I guess we are missing something down here. We don't have to do any of that ""scientific"" stuff to have a reasonable light bill. I just paid my June light bill, used 702 KWH at $.114 plus fixed costs for $92.22 USD including applicable taxes. Had a lot of 90+ days and the last week was over 100..........
If you want to talk about VI cos. theta we can talk about that and motor efficiency as a function of how it is wound, series, shunt, compound, and what if any capacitors are included in it's design, start/run, PF correction and all, and what kind of magnets are used in it's construction, Alnico 5, or 8, or Samariam Cobalt, and as a result how expensive it is........
Mark
Geez, I guess we are missing something down here. We don't have to do any of that ""scientific"" stuff to have a reasonable light bill. I just paid my June light bill, used 702 KWH at $.114 plus fixed costs for $92.22 USD including applicable taxes. Had a lot of 90+ days and the last week was over 100..........
If you want to talk about VI cos. theta we can talk about that and motor efficiency as a function of how it is wound, series, shunt, compound, and what if any capacitors are included in it's design, start/run, PF correction and all, and what kind of magnets are used in it's construction, Alnico 5, or 8, or Samariam Cobalt, and as a result how expensive it is........
Mark
buickanddeere
Well-known Member
I'm just as aware of such. Infact my daylight hours are longer here . Lots of sun in the north east and west windows too with the bulk of the day's heat from the south.
The sun is rising at the 57 degrees north and setting at 303 detrees north. 93f in the shade yesterday with 64%?humidity.
The sun is rising at the 57 degrees north and setting at 303 detrees north. 93f in the shade yesterday with 64%?humidity.
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