out-of-position welding - Puddles?

Need some advice on out-of-position welding. I have a trusty old Forney AC welder (250A) and some skill at welding if everything is clean, flat, and straight down. I don"t want to weld overhead, but I could use some tips on vertical welding. Top down or bottom up? Any rod better than another in this case? Tweak the amps up or down a hint?

I try to wrestle whatever I am welding so it is arranged so I look down on it when I can. That gets harder to do when the implements get bigger! I know it takes practice, however I am looking for hints to start off right. (OK, I am cheap and hate to burn up too much rod just playing around...)

I'm no pro but I did take a couple of welding classes at work. For out of position welds first turn down the heat from what you use when welding flat. Try 75-80% of what you use flat. You will have to play with it some to find what works for you. The correct way to weld vertical is bottom up weaving side to side as you go up. I have found I can do a good job welding top down if I hold the stick at a steep up angle toward the puddle. That seems to hold the puddle in place long enough for it to stick and the welds have all held for me. Don't expect your welds to look as nice as the ones you do flat and you will need to burn rods to learn the technique.

You can get hints from a book, but it takes a lot of rod burning(practice) to learn.

Only up for arc welding. You can do down with wirefeed, but it has less strength. You will need to lower amps a bit from level welding on same material. I use 6013 rod for ac welding. Some use 6011 because it's a bit cheaper and has a bit better cleaning, but it's quite a bit harder to use. You can use 7014 as well, but it's more $ and the metal has to be clean. It also won't work for vertical. Most inexperienced welders don't make a wide enough sweep when doing vert. welds and don't pause at the outsides. This makes the weld drop in the center. When doing a vert. weld a good rule of thumb is to do a 2 count on each side for the pause. That will help eliminate the undercut.

Yep turn down the heat , Vert. up and for starting out 6011 will work . The whip and pause where ya weld on one side for a second or so then whip over to the other side for a second or so , thats a bit of learning and a stead hand helps. Don't worry somuch about the middle as it will take care of it's self. Hold rod straight in to about 10 degrees up . Practice on some scrap and i'll bet with in a dozen rods you'll be doing just fine.

all good answers. like mj, i always burn top down, about 30 degree angle. reckon i'm backwards?

Down welds with an arc welder get slag in the weld and that makes a very weak weld. Also penetration is a problem. They do look better if you are not good at up welds. If you have been doing it for a while then you have been lucky. I doubt that you will find a book that will teach that. My shop teacher would have given birth to a farm animal if he had caught us doing that. lol
But what ever works for you is whats best.

(quoted from post at 10:12:30 07/03/12) Only up for arc welding. You can do down with wirefeed, but it has less strength. You will need to lower amps a bit from level welding on same material. I use 6013 rod for ac welding. Some use 6011 because it's a bit cheaper and has a bit better cleaning, but it's quite a bit harder to use. You can use 7014 as well, but it's more $ and the metal has to be clean. It also won't work for vertical. Most inexperienced welders don't make a wide enough sweep when doing vert. welds and don't pause at the outsides. This makes the weld drop in the center. When doing a vert. weld a good rule of thumb is to do a 2 count on each side for the pause. That will help eliminate the undercut.

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The way I learned it, any electrode with a 1 in the second to last was good for all positions. Not true?

7014 is a drag rod, which means you stick it on the metal and drag it where you want. It's very easy to use flat and is a bit stronger that the 60xx rods but it has no cleaning qualities. The instructions on the package say for flat welding only. At least on the packaging I used to get. Of corse those things change fast and I've been out of the business accept for personal stuff for 10 years.

In most cases you want to go vertical up for the most strength, however there are certain times with the right rod that you can go vertical down. Cross country pipelines when done manually are done downhand and meet all the x-ray and other inspections required. Pipelines are done with 6010 and stronger XX10 rods. 6011 is an AC version of 6010 but a little less penetration. These types of rods have the most penetration and can be used successfully vertical down. A whipping motion is usually used. The second last number in a rod indicates what position it is for. A 1 means all position. This is a little confusing though because it would be very hard to weld out of position with 1/4" rods.

You need to burn a lot of rod to get enough practice. Being cheap will end up costing you more in the long run because you'll have to get someone more qualified to fix your mess. 7018 and 6010/6011 are for dynamic loads that are under stress. 6013 isn't worth buying but for less critical applications 7014 will work. I'd suggest an AC 7018 and go vertical up. There are a couple different techniques you can use. You can turn your heat down a bit and do a weave with a slight pause at each side building a series of shelves to hold the puddle up or you can keep your heat about the same and weave side to side keeping the puddle constantly moving. It's very hard to describe in words. Welding tips and tricks may have a video but in any case, it takes a lot of practice.

Heres a link that explains everything for you.
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I'm curious why you don't like 6013 weld rod? It's the same strenth as 6010/11 and is easier to use for someone with less experience. Especially since he doen't have $5000.00 worth of welding equipment. It works with a little rust or paint, as long as ther are not flakes of rust or several layers of paint. Is there something I'm not aware of? Certainly don't know everything about welding.

I've seen that link before and it IS NOT ACCURATE!!!Repeat NOT ACCURATE, especially the polarity chart for different rods(electrodes) Welding Tips and Tricks is accurate and is written by a very experienced welder. Anybody can make a website and unfortunately there is a lot of mis-information out there.

You were a welder for 20 years? I'm sorry but you're giving a lot of mis and confusing information as well.

I think you've got 6013 and 6010/6011 confused and you don't need $5000 worth of welding equipment to use different rods that better suit the application or machine you're using.

The numbering system has been around over 40 years and hasn't changed. 7024 is for flat and horizontal welding. 7014 is all position.

So how about saying whats wrong rather than insulting. I've welded on exactly the kind of stuff the poster talked about for a lot more than 20 years all together. I've used everything stated there and it works very well. I had a very good reputation as well. Still, after 10 years out of the business old customers still look me up. You haven't yet said why what I said won't work, only that I'm wrong. I stand by what I said, 6011 is a good rod but harder to weld with. 6013 is easier to weld with but has a bit less cleaning and penetration. 7018 is best all around, but has to either be special ac7018 or use a dc welder. I've used the ac7018, but it was harder to use than regular 7018 or 6013. My experience is that a good 6013 weld will be better than a poor 6011 or ac7018 weld. Here's another link from Miller welder which pretty much repetes what the other site and what I said. Of course maybe Miller welding doesn't know about welding either. For an inexperienced welder with an average buz box welder you will want a rod that is easy to use so you get a good weld.
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Suppose I should have been clearer here. 7014 is an all position rod, but being a drag rod it's very difficult to use for vertical. This would be especially hard for someone, like the original poster, who doesn't do a lot of welding.

I don't have them confused at all. The Miller welder site I posted above says what I did. 6010 is only for dc welders, he doesn't have one. 6011 is harder to use, so what do I have wrong? If he had an expensive comercial welder they make all welding much easier. With my Lincoln 355 square wave I can easily burn any rod, but he doen't have that. And he doesn't want to spend a fortune on rods and a lot of time practicing. So why wouldn't he want the easiest rod to use with what he has?

That is me also.
Thanks to "jon f mn" and "stick welding" for imparting your knowledge.

The best thing an inexperienced welder can do is take a course from a community college or welder training facility to learn the advantages/disadvantages of different rods(electrodes) and machines. The next best thing they can do is practice, practice, practice and make sure they are getting the right information to help them. You have to have some idea of what you're doing before jumping right in or it's just a recipe for disaster. Getting a link to incorrect information does the opposite of helping them as does getting mis-information. Just curious, did you go through an apprenticeship or just work somewhere welding? You would think a 20 year welder would know that "braising" is what you do to meat and brazing is way to join metal. When someone posts something that obvious it tends to make make their other advice suspect.

Except for a spelling mistake you haven't given an example of what I've said that was inacurate yet. I'm curious why that is? And since the Miller welding site agrees with me does that mean that they also are giving out bad info?