City is doing a water main project a block from my house and has had barricades up just past my driveway for the last 2 days. They have 2 big red signs up down the road by the next street that says road is closed but they still come up to the barricades and then turn around and go back. Some times they are lined up 3 or 4 waiting to make the turn. One of the workers brought a semi load of gravel up to the barricades and was moving it so he could get past when a car comes up and waits till he moves it and the sneaks past him. Guy hollered at him but that didn't stop him. Went a block further to the trench they had open and then had to come back. There is a field driveway on the other side of the street from me and they started going into the ditch and up the drive way and then back onto the road to get around them. They still had to come back cause they couldn't get through. They had excavators, piles of sand and dirt across the road you could see from the barricades but that wouldn't stop them. Finally the workers parked a truck in the driveway so they couldn't get through. Tonight some guy came with a long gooseneck behind his pickup and tried to turn around but couldn't make it so he moves the barricades and goes past them not bothering to move them back. He got to the work site and had to go in the ditch to get to a cross road and took it till he came to more barricades and had to move them also. Kinda funny to watch the idiots but you got to wonder, doesn't any body pay attention to road signs?
- Thread starter MSD
- Start date
Tony on SD
New User
Ive been working telecom construction for over 30 years and I will tell in that time drives have gotten expoentionally stupider. You can be dressed in orange or green with a stop sign and the will say they didn't see you. Guess too much cell phone, XM radio, iPod, etc
Tony Vidlak
Member
An explanation for this comment would be interesting ?
old
Well-known Member
- Location
- Camdenton Missouri
Think about it. It is a gov. operation so those who are doing it have not clue as to how it should be done. You have a bunch of people that have degrees in this or that but still at best are educated fools and that is if your lucky
Justin SE IOWA
Member
LAA... You must be a sheltered ignorant person to make a comment like that.
You know how traffic always backs up when one lane is closed due to people having to stop and then get over because they waited until the last second in hopes of beating out someone setting in the line others like them have caused???
Well, years ago I was on the interstate and saw a sign saying that the left lane was closed ahead. Given the amount of traffic I naturally went ahead and got over into the right lane so I didn't get stuck in the 'idiot' line. When I got about 500 feet from the barracade I noticed that the left lane was actually open and it was the right lane that was blocked. Kind of funny, but the left lane was packed with care speeding aliong at the posted speed, and there were just a few of us in the right lane. The way things worked out it was no big deal for those of us in the right lane to simply merge back into the left and speed right on by the construction with no delays at all. ......Given the amount of traffic that day I'd have hated to seen and been stuck in the mess that would have happened if the lane closed sign had actually been right....
Well, years ago I was on the interstate and saw a sign saying that the left lane was closed ahead. Given the amount of traffic I naturally went ahead and got over into the right lane so I didn't get stuck in the 'idiot' line. When I got about 500 feet from the barracade I noticed that the left lane was actually open and it was the right lane that was blocked. Kind of funny, but the left lane was packed with care speeding aliong at the posted speed, and there were just a few of us in the right lane. The way things worked out it was no big deal for those of us in the right lane to simply merge back into the left and speed right on by the construction with no delays at all. ......Given the amount of traffic that day I'd have hated to seen and been stuck in the mess that would have happened if the lane closed sign had actually been right....
Tony Vidlak
Member
I resent your comment old I work for the city and I'm by no means an educated fool and I definitely know what I'm doing.
Did the same thing here, only they tore up all the roads around city hall started the day BEFORE the primary for our gubernatorial recall election. the only way to get to City Hall is sneaking up the back alley. So let me see if I got this straight making someone show a photo ID will "disfranchise" our electorate, but blocking 5 of the 6 ways into the polling place won't? I am rally beginning to think Wisconsin is more corrupt than Illinois, in Illinois they get caught, loose their job and go to jail. Last year we had medical doctors that are state employees skipping work to go protest the governor's budget repair bill, while they were there they were writing out Doctor's excuses for the other state employees that decided going to protest at the state capital was more important than going to work. The state disciplined the Doctors pulling this stunt, now the state is getting sued by the Doctor's union over the discipline.
old
Well-known Member
- Location
- Camdenton Missouri
Hey I worked for D.O.T on many roads in the area and I learned after they came in and said it was an inch above grade and we spent a week at $50 per hour for 10 truck to haul it off then a week later guess what they said oops we made a mistake so we spent the next week putting all that inch back at $50 per hour for again 10 trucks so yep I know how it works and I know how many city crews are and many have no clue. Like one thing that if you work for the city I am in they ask can you handle standing around holding a shovel but not doing any thing with it for a couple hour if you say yes you get the job if no you do not
Justin SE IOWA -- you must be a government worker -- I don't expect you to agree but I am curious why you would accuse me of leading a ''sheltered'' life. I'm probably several years older than you and have witnessed first hand the expansion of government over the last 50 plus years and the subsequent loss of freedom. I don't care what you think because I never needed someone else to make my living for me and feel a little sorry for those of you who do. You'll never know the satisfaction of standing on your own two feet.
old
Well-known Member
- Location
- Camdenton Missouri
It is truth as I have seen if first hand and BTDT and know how it is done since I have worked for state road work and know how it is done. If t was done as it should the cost of building a road would be half what it is. Worked many thousands of hours building roads in the state of Missouri and seen many many hours of work done that could have been done in ways that would have saved many many a $$
730 virgil
Well-known Member
- Location
- IL Wis state line near Monroe Wi
north of freeport il rt 26 was messed up for most of 1 summer. 2 lanes in both directions first they would work 1 lane then another finally all 4 were done then state found out concrete was wrong depth by fractions of an inch.
so all 4 where tore up and redone so road was tore up until late in fall.
so all 4 where tore up and redone so road was tore up until late in fall.
I live by a creek and when it storms and the water gets up high enough to go over the bridge we have gates across the road at either end to close the road. One guy tired to drive around the gates to cross the deep water in his car and ended up stuck in the ditch. Asked me to come pull him out with my 4x4. I let him do the hooking and call the plan. When his car came up out of the ditch it went sideways and drug the side of his car on the gate post and tore it up. You know that idiot had the nerve to blame it on me? I then merely pointed out that he was the dumba$$ who went into the ditch, not me.
bobs old iron
Well-known Member
they are not thinking, that's why stupid people do what they do...
> Given the amount of traffic I naturally went ahead and got over into the right lane so I didn't get stuck in the 'idiot' line.
That's actually one of the biggest conundrum for civil engineers. At what distance to you warn drivers that their lane will be closing? When you have to slow 2 lanes of traffic to down to 1, to get past an obstacle, it is MUCH more efficient to have the two lanes both slow down and take turns merging immediately before the obstacle. However, due to human nature, everyone takes the position that those "in the know" should get into the open land AND block every merging vehicle from entering their lane. In high traffic times, this starts happening way before the first warning sign is visible.
Long story short, if everyone waited to change lanes until the merge there would be much less traffic congestion, BUT it will never happen. If you put the warning signs 10 miles out, you will create an even BIGGER traffic problem than warning them half a mile before the obstruction.
In a perfect world, people would stay in both lanes until the very end and take turns merging, but there's no changing human nature.
That's actually one of the biggest conundrum for civil engineers. At what distance to you warn drivers that their lane will be closing? When you have to slow 2 lanes of traffic to down to 1, to get past an obstacle, it is MUCH more efficient to have the two lanes both slow down and take turns merging immediately before the obstacle. However, due to human nature, everyone takes the position that those "in the know" should get into the open land AND block every merging vehicle from entering their lane. In high traffic times, this starts happening way before the first warning sign is visible.
Long story short, if everyone waited to change lanes until the merge there would be much less traffic congestion, BUT it will never happen. If you put the warning signs 10 miles out, you will create an even BIGGER traffic problem than warning them half a mile before the obstruction.
In a perfect world, people would stay in both lanes until the very end and take turns merging, but there's no changing human nature.
LAA is obviously part of the problem, and not the solution. Cry if they work on the road, cry if they don't work on the road. There's one on every project. I was always relieved to find him - he was the one who actually liked the narrow inadequate lanes, the potholes, the 1:1 shoulder slopes, short entrance culverts, poor intersection visibility, dangerous horizontal and vertical alignment, etc, etc, etc.
The "lazy azzed government" workers, who are also trying to make a living, get sick of the "special" LAA's who cost the taxpayer extra money by thinking they are so important that they don't have to give any consideration to the thousands of honest citizens who appreciate a little road improvement.
And don't think you can give me even a little crap that I haven't already heard - I worked on road construction for 33 years. There was one of you on every job, but thankfully, you were vastly outnumbered by hundreds of good citizens that were a pleasure to work with.
The "lazy azzed government" workers, who are also trying to make a living, get sick of the "special" LAA's who cost the taxpayer extra money by thinking they are so important that they don't have to give any consideration to the thousands of honest citizens who appreciate a little road improvement.
And don't think you can give me even a little crap that I haven't already heard - I worked on road construction for 33 years. There was one of you on every job, but thankfully, you were vastly outnumbered by hundreds of good citizens that were a pleasure to work with.
I understand what your saying about how human nature effects the situation and, in theory, how things work best. But, if you look at the outcome of this particular scenerio it shows exactly the opposite of what the theory suggests should happen because it mistakenly took human nature into account.
By that I mean human nature, for the majority, seems to be to get into the closed lane and shoot all the way to the front of the line. In the theory, and their mind, there is the assumption that they will be able to simply merge into the traffic that has already gotten over. This is what the theory states should happen, but doesn't because of the variable of human nature, and the resulting traffic jamb of stopped vehicles that now can not simply merge into a moving lane of traffic at speed as the theory suggests should/needs to happen.
With that 'human' variable taken out of the equation due to the incorrect sign, the majority got into the open lane and maintained their speed, while the minority got into the actual closed lane. Due to both less vehicles being in the closed lane needing to get over, the majority of vehicles being in the open lane already, the gaps that always seem to occur between vehicles in open driving conditions due to slight speed differences, and too the fact that the smaller amount of vehicles did not completely fill the closed lane and therefore didn't have to slow down, there were plenty of opportunities for the smaller amount of vehicles to get into the open lane since they never had to go below the posted speed.
If only there was some way for this to be modeled and used all the time without the liability factor involved with giving incorrect information to the the motorists...........
By that I mean human nature, for the majority, seems to be to get into the closed lane and shoot all the way to the front of the line. In the theory, and their mind, there is the assumption that they will be able to simply merge into the traffic that has already gotten over. This is what the theory states should happen, but doesn't because of the variable of human nature, and the resulting traffic jamb of stopped vehicles that now can not simply merge into a moving lane of traffic at speed as the theory suggests should/needs to happen.
With that 'human' variable taken out of the equation due to the incorrect sign, the majority got into the open lane and maintained their speed, while the minority got into the actual closed lane. Due to both less vehicles being in the closed lane needing to get over, the majority of vehicles being in the open lane already, the gaps that always seem to occur between vehicles in open driving conditions due to slight speed differences, and too the fact that the smaller amount of vehicles did not completely fill the closed lane and therefore didn't have to slow down, there were plenty of opportunities for the smaller amount of vehicles to get into the open lane since they never had to go below the posted speed.
If only there was some way for this to be modeled and used all the time without the liability factor involved with giving incorrect information to the the motorists...........
Jimmy King
Well-known Member
County just put in a new bridge down the hill from my house. They only had the road closed for a total of about 6 days. The road T"s 1/2 mile west of me had a sign road closed local traffic only. I could have made a lot of money charging people for turning around in my driveways.
Anonymous-0
Well-known Member
There are some things that just can't be fixed. And STUPID is one of them!
Gee the last time I looked the Government isn't doing the work.....they are only paying for it....to the cheapest bidder. If they have to work around traffic then the price goes up costing the tax payer more. The government lays out the work to be done, the bidders look at that work and tells the government "gee we are going to have to close that road to get the work done in a timely manner" and the government comes up with a traffic management plan including detours to enable the work to be done. It's the working stiff, working for a contractor who has to deal with the stupid people who think "No Thru Traffic" isn't referring to them.
Don't get me wrong......I'm not a fan of how the government is being run. But I'm not willing to pay extra taxes so a road 100 miles from me is convenient to you. I would expect you to pay higher taxes for me.
Rick
willie in mn
Well-known Member
Great theory on paper, but just doesn't work in the real world. Ever notice that as soon as everyone gets in line, the pace really picks up?
One lane of traffic moving at 45-50 can handle more vehicles per minute than two lanes moving at 5-10.
Willie
One lane of traffic moving at 45-50 can handle more vehicles per minute than two lanes moving at 5-10.
Willie
Anonymous-0
Well-known Member
Are you actually that stupid??? Or did some idiot hack your account???
Anonymous-0
Well-known Member
There ya go again Rich.... Biting the hand that feeds you... Better be careful, suma dem guvment idiots may work up enough gumption to audit your repair business and reevaluate your disability... Think if I was a guy of your character (at least the one you, pewe, and that other guy display on the forum), I'd keep quiet and praise the government every chance I got.....
That's just me thinking out loud tho......
Before ya git all hateful at me, remember I'm helpin pay your way.....
George Rausch
Member
We were laying a new water main down our main drag, and I was helping the guys, flagging traffic. A little old lady came creeping around all the barricades, looking through the steering wheel, and I tried to stop her, I waved the STOP at her, and waved it, and finally put it right down on the hood of her car, right inthe windshield, as she crept past me. She scowled at me, and just kept creeping along. I yelled at the guys to stop the backhoe, and watch out. She just kept on, I guess it just didn't apply to her!!
I was on I71 in Columbus Saturday and all lanes were stopped as far as you could see. People were getting out of their cars looking to see what was going on. Motorcycle cops were weaving in and out of parked cars screaming at people to get back in their cars. We were held up about 45 minutes when the presidential motorcade finally came down the other side. I'm sure he lost a lot of votes!
showcrop
Well-known Member
While on a trip a few years ago, in one state they had signs about 1/2 mile ahead of a construction zone telling drivers to do exactly as you say. In another state there had been an accident and one lane was closed while recovery was going on. I passed about 15 cars before getting in line about 200 yards before where the police were. When I got up to the police they pulled me over for not changing lanes soon enough and had me wait until fifteen cars went by. Personal preference I guess.
showcrop
Well-known Member
Wayne, nice theory but you are missing one important factor, which is the need for half the drivers to slow down to 5MPH to look over the activity that they are passing. This in itself results in stop and go even if there were not two lanes of cars trying to fit into one.
showcrop
Well-known Member
Tony, you only THINK that you know what you are doing, because you have not been adequately exposed to Old's knowledge. Must be you don't read enough of his posts. I think that you need to request a year off for higher education and go work with Old so that you can find out the right way of doing many things. Just don't sign up to live in his dorm or you may be bringing some things home that you don't want.
SweetFeet
Well-known Member
Yep, we had the bridge thing quite a few years ago. Up at the main highway, the sign said, "Bridge out - road closed to through traffic".
Funniest thing is that the neighbors south of us have a driveway at least a half mile long - it runs east, then curves south into their yard at the far end. Nice wide driveway, looks like a road. So people would come down the road - see that the bridge was "really" out... do a U turn. Then reach the neighbors driveway, turn east and go flying up their driveway doing about 50 mph - then slam the brakes when they reached the surprise sharp curve at the end. Just funny.
We too wished we had a dollar for every car that did that - there were a lot! We could have gone out for a really nice dinner on that money.
Funniest thing is that the neighbors south of us have a driveway at least a half mile long - it runs east, then curves south into their yard at the far end. Nice wide driveway, looks like a road. So people would come down the road - see that the bridge was "really" out... do a U turn. Then reach the neighbors driveway, turn east and go flying up their driveway doing about 50 mph - then slam the brakes when they reached the surprise sharp curve at the end. Just funny.
We too wished we had a dollar for every car that did that - there were a lot! We could have gone out for a really nice dinner on that money.
dr sportster
Well-known Member
I have seen that before .Older woman just determined to ignore the stop sign[hand held by a guy] practically right on the windshield and the lady just keeps going right on through. If it wasn't so dangerous it would almost be comical.
John M
Well-known Member
- Location
- Nunyafn business
You had better watch it! He'll threaten to kill you
over comments like that!
over comments like that!
Nancy Howell
Well-known Member
If there's a problem, the construction foreman should have reported it to the police/sheriff. An officer writing tickets for ignoring road signs would put a stop to it real quick.
Guy with the goose neck is amazing. When I'm pulling my big g/n horse trailer, I NEVER go down roads I don't know. There have been times I parked and walked to make sure I could get in AND get out.
Guy with the goose neck is amazing. When I'm pulling my big g/n horse trailer, I NEVER go down roads I don't know. There have been times I parked and walked to make sure I could get in AND get out.
PJH, you don't know what your talking about, the taxes I pay are by far my largest expenditure and I have no representation in congress or the state legislature or on the local level, why is that? because the politicians do not pander to the tax payers, they steal our money to perform wasteful and slothful projects in the name of public safety and various other ruses, in short, they use stolen money to buy votes from the non contributors. I don't whine about having anything done, if I thought something needed doing I sure am not stupid enough to expect the government to get it done efficiently. Just because you stood in the shade and waved an orange flag for 33 years does not make you an expert on what other people think.
redneckpuller
Member
not even with duct tape
dr sportster
Well-known Member
The thing is the road contractor has to pay the police department for the time the cop was on the site. Unless a local cop feels like writing some tickets they will stay away until an arangment is made for the time. All those cops you see standing around road work are being paid by the contractor. If they eliminate the cop[ some towns it is madatory to hire them ] they free up job money and make more profit. Often instead of a police presence they use an attenuator truck or crash truck . Next time you go by roadwork look at the first truck parked . It is a giant black and yellow cushion to let people crash into and protect the workers. On large highway projects so many deaths are figured into the job.
I find the township or county often have better things to do with thier time than to update the signs - unfortunately. So it is unserstandable that people lose trust in the signage & figure the road is actually open esp after normal construction hours.
We had a 8 foot culvert replaced by us years ago, it was funny all the cars & rigs coming along and - oh, the pile of dirt across one side - road really _is_ closed, they had to turn around.
A small village near me of 500 people is redoing the entire water & sewage, every street will get dug by September. As the town has lots of corners and incomplete bolcks, it is very interesting how they jump around and rip up a checkerboard pattern. To get to my aunt changed 4 times in 6 days, and 3 of the 4 days I had to drive down 'closed' but the only logical access to her corner of town.
What can you do?
--->Paul
We had a 8 foot culvert replaced by us years ago, it was funny all the cars & rigs coming along and - oh, the pile of dirt across one side - road really _is_ closed, they had to turn around.
A small village near me of 500 people is redoing the entire water & sewage, every street will get dug by September. As the town has lots of corners and incomplete bolcks, it is very interesting how they jump around and rip up a checkerboard pattern. To get to my aunt changed 4 times in 6 days, and 3 of the 4 days I had to drive down 'closed' but the only logical access to her corner of town.
What can you do?
--->Paul
Your right there, too many 'lookie loos' out there most of the time. One thing, at least they are all in a line that has the potential to be moving at 5 MPH instead of at a dead stop waiting for the long line of people in the other lane, that were in a hurry, to move into their lane from a dead stop. Personally I've been stuck working on a piece of equipment beside the road enough over the years that I'd much preffer them to be moving at 5 MPH when they pass than coming by within a couple of feet of me running 60MPH plus.......I hate traffic as much as the next person but ultimately I like living more than I hate traffic.....
I drive a semi with a short dump for construction. We are currently on a sewer renewal project with a lot of streets closed. You would not believe the idiots we have to put up with everyday. Oh, the stories I could tell. It is a good thing I don't have a conceal carry permit!!!!!
That's nothing! You should come ride with me for a week. We usually shut down 3 or 4 RR crossings a week. All with baracades, flashing lights, and a add run in the paper bout 3 weeks in advance. 9 out of 10 people drive around the signs stop at the crossing with a pile of asphault and a hoe stretched out and ask is this road closed? What's really amazing though is the # of people that have lived in the area 20+ years and don't know how to get around the crossing. Matter of fact as I'm typing this 2 people have turned onto a closed road.
Same stuff happens here, iv never seen such rude motorists. Cut people off, don't use turn signals, run red lights, pass 2-3 cars on double yellow lines,because there not going fast enought, ect, ect. They act like there the only ones on the road! They are stressed out drones who can't think for themselves, and have no regard for anyone else on the road. The stuff I see driving 200 to 300 miles a week, if enought cops were around they could make a fourtune in tickets for the state. People just don't care it seems, best one I saw was 2 guys cut in front of a rolloff truck to make a right turn, they wouldent go behind him, so they cut in front of him, you know because it was 14 seconds faster, they stoped, truck driver swerved left to miss hitting them, and the truck rolled over onto the car, with 20 tons of stone, concrete in it. Killed both in the car
Ralph Bauer
Well-known Member
Si Senor, but why are you asking me if I SPEAK English??? I believe the potentially correct statement would be:
Se escribe y leer inglese!
LOL
Se escribe y leer inglese!
LOL
Ralph Bauer
Well-known Member
Reading both sides here. You don't like the way it is currently done. How would you do it differently? Upgrades and repairs come up with any politicians reign, not just with either the left or right. Really would like to hear yoursolutions. Thanks in advance, Ralph in Oklahoma.
Ralph Bauer,
Its not a left or right thing, I believe that concept is overblown if not downright non-existent these days, neither side of the political ailse are looking out for the tax payers, we are nothing but piggy banks for both parties. Here is my point, how many road, bridge or similar public projects have you ever seen completed on time and on or under budget? Conversely, how many times have you read about running out of money for performing the same type projects and the people in charge going back to the tax payer trough and asking for more money? How many times have you read about corruption associated with these type projects? How many times have you read about waste and non sensical application of resources associated with these type projects? Can you name one example of a ""dedicated"" or ""temporary"" tax to fund this or that project that has ever run its course and actually been suspended or taken off the books? Who profits from public expenditures? If you guessed politicians take a bow, they gain stature from any work completed and steer contracts to friends, relatives and business associates. Everyone gets their hand out, the police agencies charge double or triple fines when speeding in a so called ""work"" zone, never mind that the majority of the people are standing around in the way, unheedingly close to traffic and oblivoius to everything around them. Did you ever notice that the only time of day the police are around these work zones handing out tickets is approximately 6-9 in the morning and 4-7 in the evening? Why is that, because those are the hours working people are on the highways, not coincidentally working people have to pay their fines so that they do not go to jail and can continue to go to work. The dope heads don"t get out of bed until 10 or 12 so they are immune, well, nobody wants to stop a dope head anyway because he is not going to pay a fine and contribute to everybody having a job, the dope head is going to go get 3 hots and a cot if you stop him so there is no profit in it. Getting to your other point - I think privatizing the whole mess would solve a lot of it, bid the jobs with standards attached and fully enforced, the public sector would have to do it at a profit or go broke trying, regardless it would be done better and cheaper in the long run.
Its not a left or right thing, I believe that concept is overblown if not downright non-existent these days, neither side of the political ailse are looking out for the tax payers, we are nothing but piggy banks for both parties. Here is my point, how many road, bridge or similar public projects have you ever seen completed on time and on or under budget? Conversely, how many times have you read about running out of money for performing the same type projects and the people in charge going back to the tax payer trough and asking for more money? How many times have you read about corruption associated with these type projects? How many times have you read about waste and non sensical application of resources associated with these type projects? Can you name one example of a ""dedicated"" or ""temporary"" tax to fund this or that project that has ever run its course and actually been suspended or taken off the books? Who profits from public expenditures? If you guessed politicians take a bow, they gain stature from any work completed and steer contracts to friends, relatives and business associates. Everyone gets their hand out, the police agencies charge double or triple fines when speeding in a so called ""work"" zone, never mind that the majority of the people are standing around in the way, unheedingly close to traffic and oblivoius to everything around them. Did you ever notice that the only time of day the police are around these work zones handing out tickets is approximately 6-9 in the morning and 4-7 in the evening? Why is that, because those are the hours working people are on the highways, not coincidentally working people have to pay their fines so that they do not go to jail and can continue to go to work. The dope heads don"t get out of bed until 10 or 12 so they are immune, well, nobody wants to stop a dope head anyway because he is not going to pay a fine and contribute to everybody having a job, the dope head is going to go get 3 hots and a cot if you stop him so there is no profit in it. Getting to your other point - I think privatizing the whole mess would solve a lot of it, bid the jobs with standards attached and fully enforced, the public sector would have to do it at a profit or go broke trying, regardless it would be done better and cheaper in the long run.
Ralph Bauer
Well-known Member
Thanks for your reply LAA,
just last night, I watched a 30 minute program on Lobbyists in Germany, why there are there, their purpose, their way of doing things, etc, etc. Here or there, on this or the other side of the Atlantic, it really does not matter, but one of the most startling, and also honest answers a politician gave when asked why they can get an appointment with them, why they are so listened to, and why they ultimately influence politics so much. The answer is: We don't know everything and are not experts in everything so we rely on every day people to inform, educate, and help us make laws that are most beneficial to the general public. In simple terms, the conclusion is that all we have to do is show up i masses and often and "our will be done." Unfortunately, as you and others know, IT DOES NOT WORK THIS WAY !! There are slackers in every kind of employment, public and private. Not complaining, but I do work for a municipality, no raise, no cost of living adjustment, nothing since fiscal year 2008 (runs from 7-07 to 6-08 here in Oklahoma) besides the fact that I need good medical insurance, I am not complaining yet, but everything is more expensive and my real income has dropped considerably. The reason why I stay is that I LOVE my job and bills still get payed, STILL that is. My point is that there are thousands of like minded people working in government and we do take pride in our job, just like most in the private sector.
Privatizing government looks very appealing on the surface, I agree with you on that level. However, I have met people that openly talk about government as their road to riches: Even the smallest of bridges, the industry standard used to never less than 300.000,- (years ago), even though it can be done for far, far less. And what is a government agency to do if they get multiple bits, but none less than 300K??? You can pick the lowest, it still rips you off!! Government has gotten better, carrots in form of $$$ for early completion of projects, penalty for taking longer, gradually increasing.
If we were to privatize government duties completely, they will compete, but what are we to do if all charge ridiculous high prices (take it or leave it) for essential service? I am not just thinking of trash, but water, gas, roads (and we got lots of toll roads run by private enterprises) but how about our military?? Should the US get a all private armed forces, completely staffed in all branches by mercenaries?? Who other than the mighty $$ are they loyal to?? What if we don't pay them what they ask us to pay?? I stop my thought here....
In closing, government is not in the business of making a profit, in simple business terms, they are to brake even in the mid to long run. Yes, there will be skinny (like right now) years and fat years but essential things and services that are dear to a people (Americans have their ideas about that, German have somewhat different views, Swedes their own, too, etc., etc., ...) In doing so, they need to be good stewards of their position, money, and political cloud/influence and serve everyone, not just their cronies. When people cross that line, things become quickly out of hand. We can be vigilant and watchdogs, but our best defense is our own morality, sense of duty, and doing what's right.
just last night, I watched a 30 minute program on Lobbyists in Germany, why there are there, their purpose, their way of doing things, etc, etc. Here or there, on this or the other side of the Atlantic, it really does not matter, but one of the most startling, and also honest answers a politician gave when asked why they can get an appointment with them, why they are so listened to, and why they ultimately influence politics so much. The answer is: We don't know everything and are not experts in everything so we rely on every day people to inform, educate, and help us make laws that are most beneficial to the general public. In simple terms, the conclusion is that all we have to do is show up i masses and often and "our will be done." Unfortunately, as you and others know, IT DOES NOT WORK THIS WAY !! There are slackers in every kind of employment, public and private. Not complaining, but I do work for a municipality, no raise, no cost of living adjustment, nothing since fiscal year 2008 (runs from 7-07 to 6-08 here in Oklahoma) besides the fact that I need good medical insurance, I am not complaining yet, but everything is more expensive and my real income has dropped considerably. The reason why I stay is that I LOVE my job and bills still get payed, STILL that is. My point is that there are thousands of like minded people working in government and we do take pride in our job, just like most in the private sector.
Privatizing government looks very appealing on the surface, I agree with you on that level. However, I have met people that openly talk about government as their road to riches: Even the smallest of bridges, the industry standard used to never less than 300.000,- (years ago), even though it can be done for far, far less. And what is a government agency to do if they get multiple bits, but none less than 300K??? You can pick the lowest, it still rips you off!! Government has gotten better, carrots in form of $$$ for early completion of projects, penalty for taking longer, gradually increasing.
If we were to privatize government duties completely, they will compete, but what are we to do if all charge ridiculous high prices (take it or leave it) for essential service? I am not just thinking of trash, but water, gas, roads (and we got lots of toll roads run by private enterprises) but how about our military?? Should the US get a all private armed forces, completely staffed in all branches by mercenaries?? Who other than the mighty $$ are they loyal to?? What if we don't pay them what they ask us to pay?? I stop my thought here....
In closing, government is not in the business of making a profit, in simple business terms, they are to brake even in the mid to long run. Yes, there will be skinny (like right now) years and fat years but essential things and services that are dear to a people (Americans have their ideas about that, German have somewhat different views, Swedes their own, too, etc., etc., ...) In doing so, they need to be good stewards of their position, money, and political cloud/influence and serve everyone, not just their cronies. When people cross that line, things become quickly out of hand. We can be vigilant and watchdogs, but our best defense is our own morality, sense of duty, and doing what's right.
Ralph Bauer
Well-known Member
Sorry folks, hit the submit button instead of the back button, wanted to correct my spelling, some missing words...soooo please forgive that part! Ralph.
Ralph Bauer,
You are right that all branches of government need responsible, dedicated, knowledgeable employees and I am sure many of them, such as yourself take pride in your work and do your best to contain costs and maintain efficiency. I get what your saying about contractors treating a municipal or state contract like a winning lotto ticket but they could not do that if the politicians and bureaucrats did their homework and set and enforced deadlines, overruns, code standards etc. in other words, manage the projects like they would if it was their own money being spent. I sometimes go overboard on the anti-government rhetoric because it seems like we pay and pay and pay some more and I still have to get the front ends aligned on every vehicle we own twice a year. I believe what the German Politician said is basically true, the squeaky wheels do get the grease, but, how many working people have time to attend rallies and meetings? that is precisely how many things that the average citizen would never support get to be law because the fringe groups of people who are financed by outside entities or on welfare etc. have the free time to protest, raise petitions etc. In many ways it is minority rule in this country becuse we lose by default. I live in a very conservative district and we have a nnalert Congressman who knows he's ''safe'' for re-election, the result of that is he does nothing, he has the freedom to be against deficit spending and unreigned entitlement spending and anything else but he sits back like a hoot owl on a limb, people like him need what old Lugar just got in Indiana, a big wake up call and to get kicked down the capital steps.
You are right that all branches of government need responsible, dedicated, knowledgeable employees and I am sure many of them, such as yourself take pride in your work and do your best to contain costs and maintain efficiency. I get what your saying about contractors treating a municipal or state contract like a winning lotto ticket but they could not do that if the politicians and bureaucrats did their homework and set and enforced deadlines, overruns, code standards etc. in other words, manage the projects like they would if it was their own money being spent. I sometimes go overboard on the anti-government rhetoric because it seems like we pay and pay and pay some more and I still have to get the front ends aligned on every vehicle we own twice a year. I believe what the German Politician said is basically true, the squeaky wheels do get the grease, but, how many working people have time to attend rallies and meetings? that is precisely how many things that the average citizen would never support get to be law because the fringe groups of people who are financed by outside entities or on welfare etc. have the free time to protest, raise petitions etc. In many ways it is minority rule in this country becuse we lose by default. I live in a very conservative district and we have a nnalert Congressman who knows he's ''safe'' for re-election, the result of that is he does nothing, he has the freedom to be against deficit spending and unreigned entitlement spending and anything else but he sits back like a hoot owl on a limb, people like him need what old Lugar just got in Indiana, a big wake up call and to get kicked down the capital steps.
"I think privatizing the whole mess would solve a lot of it, bid the jobs with standards attached and fully enforced, the public sector would have to do it at a profit or go broke trying, regardless it would be done better and cheaper in the long run."
That's how it has been done for at least the last 50 years, and probably since 1930, in Illinois.
That's how it has been done for at least the last 50 years, and probably since 1930, in Illinois.
showcrop
Well-known Member
I owned and operated a dump truck for two years and hired out to small excavation companies. The one that I worked for the most built a lot of roads for subdivisions. It was VERY apparent how much faster they worked and with far fewer people than on a typical municipal or state crew. The profit motive has a great effect on supervision and accountability in the work place.
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