Deere 1010 gas Pertonix starting problem (long/boring)

I feel kind of silly posting this since I've been working on these things for near 50 years. But -just the same I'm curious if anyone else with a 1010 has had this problem. I'm at the point where I may just start changing parts to see if something works.

I've had this 1010 crawler loader for 15-20 years. It's always been a poor starter in cold weather below 30 degrees F, but otherwise it's been fine. Once running - it runs absolutely perfect. I rebuilt the engine when I first got it, mainly because it had been in a fire. Distributor was melted and I had to buy a used Delco. Ran it for two years not knowing it was a 6 cylinder distributor with a four cylinder cap stuck on it. That caused some weird problems ! Ends up it was from a Deere 4010, not a 1010. Had a six-lobe points cam. So, I found a very rusty four-lobe cam from a Case tractor and that fixed those particular weird problems. But the cam is very rusty and pitted and wears down points rubbing blocks pretty quick.
Note - a four cylinder engine runs pretty good with a six cylinder distributor but does some very strange things. One is severe carbon tracking and burning out caps very quickly.

So, since I've had it, it has never had the complete original ignition system -but I never figured it mattered. OEM it would of had a ballast resistor built into the key swith, a low-ohm 6 volt type coil, and a cranking- resistor-bypass built into the key switch to allow full voltage to the coil which cranking.

I installed a standard battery key switch, 6 volt low-ohm coil, external ballast resistor, and a cranking- bypass wirred to the Delco starter. I assume Deere did NOT do this since some 1010s had Prestolite starters and they do not have the bypass feature.

I used the crawler this way for many years. Then recently I started getting a problem that once good and hot after running for hours, the engine would just quit. If I let it sit for a few minutes it would start right up and sometimes run fine for hours. Or - sometimes just quit aqain. Seems to be some sort of intermittent ignition problem. I was always able to restart so I never spent much time trying to diagnose.

This spring I had a big pond project and I knew I'd be using the 1010 a lot. In fact, I literally ran the tracks off it. Before the project, I decided to install a Pertonix breakerless kit. I do NOT believe all the wonderous BS stories about engines running better with Pertonix. I did it to elimate points wear only. The reason was that the four-lobed cam in the distributor was in bad shape and was hard on points. By using the breakerless module, I eliminated the rusted-pitted cam. But - the Pertonix "Ignitor" kit does not allow use of a low-ohm 6 volt type coil unless a resistor is wired in. It will void warranty. So for simplicity, I bought a brand new high-ohm "12 volt" coil. 3.2 ohms instead of 1.5 ohms on the primary. Afterwards I ran the crawler almost all day, every day for two weeks and it ran flawlessly. But this was an unusual warm spell and it never got colder then 60 degrees F. Now the weather has cooled down -into the 30s and 40s F. The crawler is near impossible to start. I tried widening the plug gap from .025' to .035" and it made no difference. If anything, it might be worse. I tried altering the timing and no changes made any difference. Sometimes I have to fool with it for half an hour and finally it will start. When it does it runs perfect. Note - the choke on the carb works fine. In fact it's pretty easy to flood. This problem seems to be a "yes" or "no" sort of thing. No inbetween. I tried checking spark during the time when it was not starting. With a plug wire hooked to a plug (with ground electrode broken off), and cranking it - it threw a good spark jumping near 1/4". So I'm stumped when it comes for further diagnosis. I DO know that it takes more energy to make a spark inside a combustion chamber so my open-air test is not perfect. I think now I'm going to start changing parts.

One piece of evidence though. One time after cranking for half an hour - I removed one spark plug. I then cranked and it started right up - even though it only had 3 cylinders. So what did removing one plug do? I assume cranking speed increased since the compression of one cylinder was missing. I then put the plug back in and checked actual voltage to coil when cranking. Voltage goes down to 8 volts. So I'm now wondering if maybe this Pertonix breakerless module has a sort of "yes" or "no" threshhold when voltage drops below a certain point - or cranking speed drops below a certain RPM. To add to this maybe my starter is drawing more current then it ought to resulting in the voltage drop to 8 volts when cranking? Seems it ought to only drop to 9 or 9.5 volts, not 8 volts. It is NOT a cable or connection problem Even drops to 8 when checked at the battery.

I do know this. This 1010 starts much better with the former 6 volt coil with ballast resistor and breaker-points. Obviously with the 6 volt type coil - as the 1010 came new - and the cranking bypass - 8 volts at cranking is plenty.

Right now I suspect the Pertronix as the issue. When I bought it I was planning to use a low ohm 6 volt type coil. After opening the box I was surprised to find out it can’t be used with any coil less then 3.2 ohms or it will burn out. This is the standard Ignitor system - version # I. Version II and version III allow better coils but Pertonix does not make those versions for many older tractors.

You may have found the problem. To rule out low voltage to the ignition system you need to rig up a separate supply from another source, like another battery. If it starts then you know what the problem is.

I have used petronix for years with out a lick of problems. I have the set up on my pulling tractors and if they will turn over they will start. Personally I think it is important to use their coils that are made for the ignition set up.

My uncle had a 1010 or 2010 ? TLB when new he still cusses it to this day !!! One of the problems he had from new was hard starting when cold.

Sounds like vd while cranking. Correct an electronic system does have a no spark threshold when supply voltage drops. Is the battery "ground" bolted to a starter mounting bolt? Have you tried a direct supply to the ignition switch with it"s own wire from the battery to switch? What is battery terminal voltage while cranking?

I'm going to jump in right off the wall and guess something like the vacuum/vacuum leak/fuel vaporization area may be the problem.
It has always amazed me that the JD 2510 needs to be choked when hot. All my old ACs fire up immediately, and require little, or even no choking. Certainly none when hot.

Since your battery voltage while starting is below the threshold, I would try another battery or make sure the connections are up to stuff, especially the battery ground to frame.

Have you tried boosting it when it won't start? Correct the low battery voltage with a new battery or starter rebuild.

That drastic voltage reduction while cranking is one of my suspects.

As far as the Pertronix being the fault, if the coil current is so low (due to 8 volts) it dont matter if the switch is elec (assuming it still switches) or points, the spark will still be weak. At 12 volts a 3 ohm coil draws 4 amps while if only 8 coil current drops to 8/3 and you have a weak spark when you really need it for starting. Of course at atmospheric pressure its easier to arc jump the plugs gap versus if at 100 PSI.

I dont think low RPM is a problem with the pertronix, I think they trigger the switch by the Hall Effect so it dont matter if the magnet is going slowly past the pickup. I dont know if theres a low voltage threshold as far as bias and allowng the switch to trigger BUT I SORTA DOUBT IT

You and I know its the switches CURRENT RATING that Pertronix doesnt want exceeded so thats why they advise the 3 ohm coil so Billy Bob and his know it all brother in law arent advised to use a 6 volt coil plus ballast knowing they will mess up and cause the switches curent to be doubled which can fry it........OF COURSE a 1.5 ballast plus a 1.5 coil makes the switching current the same so a switch rated for 4 amps will work butttttttt they just dont want us to do that knowing Billy Bob will screw it all up lol

Id work on that voltage drop........00 Gauge cables,,,,,,,,,good ground near or on the starter,,,,,,,,,good heavy battery etc. BUT YOU KNOW ALL THAT ALREADY


best wishes

John T

You can go right to Pertronix's web site and they will tell you that the voltage to the coil must be greater than what you have for their system to work. Figure out why your voltage is dropping so much while cranking and your problem will be eliminated.

Yes, I've been suspecting the low cranking voltage. Before when I had the OEM low-ohm, so-called "6 volt" coil - cranking at 8 volts was not an issue. A 6 volt coil is very happy with 8 volts. Now - with the 3.3 ohm so-called "12 volt" coil - maybe it IS an issue.

This crawler was in a fire 20 years ago. I've long suspected a slight field-coil problem in the starter. It's never sounded quite "right." 20 years ago I put new brushes, holders, starter drive and solenoid in it and it's worked good enough ever since. But since battery voltage drops to 8 volts , I'm wondering if it draws more then it should. 1010/2010 gas starters are not common and nothing else I know of fits - so I've never come across another. On the other hand -for my Deere 1020 diesel - I just bought a brand new gear-reduction starter for $95, tax free, no shipping charges. Hard to beat that price for a brand new starter (not rebuilt). But the 1010/2010 series is odd-ball and no aftermarket starters around. I don't even know if I can buy field coils for the Delco that's in the 1010. Maybe I'm going to have to check sometime. I know a diesel tractor with the correct batteries and cables is supposed to drop to 9 to 9.5 volts when cranking. So, 8 volts in this gasser sounds like an excessive drop. I've checked battery voltage directly at the battery so I know cable or connections are not to blame. It would have to be a defective/undersized battery or a starter drawing too much current. Or I guess, and engine turning too hard which I know is not the issue.

Pertonix does not make nor sell any special coil made for their Ignitor system. I've been on the phone with their tech department and discussed it.

Pertronix lists the operating voltage range as 8 to 16 volts. My cranking voltage is dropping to around 8.2 volts ( I think) which is not below the threshold. I haven't used any high tech voltage readers to be sure. Just a 50 years old analog voltmeter which may or may not be off a bit. I'm going to stick a new high-tech voltmeter on later to verify.

I doubt that the Pertronix unit actually ceases to function at exactly 8 volts. But maybe? Seems silly if true. A battery loses half its power at 0 degrees F. If you want to start a gas tractor at below 0 F temps, it would not be unusual to drop to 8 volts when cranking. If Pertronix is any good, it should be capable of working in those conditions. In my case with this 1010 though - it's dropping to 8 volts at 50-60 degrees F. So if I were actually cranking at below 0 degrees F, it would probably drop even lower.

had the same problem with my 930 case i ran a new wire to the coil from a push buttom switch that i mounted on the dash i hit this button when i start cranking to boost power to coil it will start fine then

Here is a really off the wall true story, which might be worth checking on your tractor. My father bought a new 1010 crawler in 1963, like yours, it was always a real pain to start at lower temperatures. He always boosted the battery, and used the old Model T trick of pouring a gallon of hot water over the manifold and carburetor every morning before he tried to start it. Some time in the early seventies, the starter finally gave up, all the smoke leaked out and it stopped turning.

With much cursing he got the starter out and took it to the local rebuilder. The guy looked at it, said "Yup, it's fried, lets see if we can find parts." He got the number off the tag and started looking it up.

"What did you say this was on?"

"John Deere 1010 crawler."

"Twenty four volt?"

"H**L NO."

There was a twenty four volt starter option, with dual twelve volt batteries, and a solenoid set up to connect them in series, to the starter only.

The tractor had the twenty four volt starter, but none of the rest of the system.
Dad had the starter rebuilt as a twelve volt, and the tractor started much better after that. It was still cold blooded, but didn't require extreme measures unless it got well below freezing.

In case you haven't found it by now, there is a "sweet spot" where the throttle can be set, where it starts best. A little too much, and it floods, too little and it won't fire.

never knew about the 24 volt option,went to the parts manual,sure enough,there it was. Thanks

Have you fully charged your battery and then have it load tested while unhooked from all the tractor connections. I'm guessing that you might have weak cell in your battery that only shows up under the load of engaging the starter.

The 6 volt epoxy turd does fail to fire if voltage drops during cranking.Your 12 volt is doing the same thing.Some solar fence chargers stop working at 5 volts.I trust an analog meter more than digital types.A new 9 volt alkaline battery can be used to check your meter.

24 volt series-parallel system was on 1010 144 c.i.diesels only. This is a 1010 115 c.i. gas and it was only made with a 12 volt system. Delclo or Prestolite starters and a choice of Prestolite, Wico, or two different Delco ignition systems.

Have you experimented with a 2nd 12V battery and dedicated circuit to supply 12V ignition power? Thus isolating the starting and cranking circuits?

(quoted from post at 06:42:29 04/28/12) Have you experimented with a 2nd 12V battery and dedicated circuit to supply 12V ignition power? Thus isolating the starting and cranking circuits?

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That could be a way to trouble shoot it. Hook the coil up to a seperate battery that's fully chargce with a couple of jumper wires. It it starts easy you know yer voltage drop is too great while cranking.

Rick

Just wondering if it would be worth taking the dist. cam to a good machine shop, have them build it up and re-cut the cam back to original. Or a low tech backyard repair, clean thoroughy and slather some good epoxy on the cam and file off the excess, that should fill the holes and smooth it up some. It's just sitting on your shelf now and might be a good back-up or put it back in. I had a 1965 model that I bought in 1991 and sold in 2005, fun yard tractor and pretty usefull for digging and carrying firewood out to the truck. I also put an 1100 CCA battery in it, that really made it spin in the winter when I wanted to move snow.

Yeah, this one WAS a gas engine, and the twenty four volt starter got put on it it somehow, anyway.