The greenies are at it agian...Dow Chemical Corn

Take a look at this article in the NY times in regards to a new corn resistant to 2-4D.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/26/business/energy-environment/dow-weed-killer-runs-into-opposition.html[/url]

Here's the article,
2 4D NYT article

"The Environmental Protection Agency, after repeated reviews, continues to say that there is not enough evidence to call 2,4-D a human carcinogen."

I find this absolutely astonishing.

Surely this must be the first time that the EPA has investigated anything and found it not worthy of regulation.

Dean

It is a rock and a hard place isn't it, personally I hate chemicals and avoid their use when possible, by the same token, there is no other way, (if my limited knowledge on this is correct) to grow the amount of crops needed to sustain farming, feed people and what have you. I have not gotten into the genetically engineered seed situation, but am told its been a popular subject on late night radio/talk show underworld, conspiracy theorists etc.

I have concerns, as its been used on our land, and will likely be used on an adjacent 30 or so acres that is going in corn this year by a large operator, that field slopes directly into our 20 acre pond, which is mostly pristine, non stagnant, no algae to speak of etc. Not sure what the fertilizer aspect of it is going to be as well, since the last time the entire field was planted was a long time ago (not in strips like my farmer friend utilized in there for soil erosion prevention for many years) It was just a marsh then, though some of it was part of a field, until the water level rose, beavers, then DEC/DOT put up sheet piling, and a way to control the water level, keeping it 6 feet or so higher. The rest of our place is up stream, but if I had livestock here, they could use it as a water source as 2 small creeks feed into it, that both pass through 2 other large swamps, water is filtered and pretty darn clean, coming from nearby small mountains as run off, springs and so on.

2-4D was applied to 7 acres on oats here, in '10, right now not much is growing in there, its tan, everything else is green, but with the rains and time, has to be long gone, but man that stuff reeks to no end when applied, I've ridden in several spray rigs, on many acres too, really are not many options for large acreages to keep weeds down is there ?

Are you familiar with a certain Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) official named Al Armendariz?

Chances are you’ve never heard of him. We suspect most Americans haven’t. However, with the recent unearthing of the video below, that could change very soon.

Thanks to a little digging by the staff of Sen. Jim Inhofe (R-OK), attention has been brought to a 2010 video that seems to confirm what many conservatives have long suspected: that the EPA is at war with the oil and gas industries.

The top-ranking EPA official goes on to explain his philosophy of policy enforcement [emphases added]:

I was in a meeting once and I gave an analogy to my staff…the Romans used to conquer little villages in the Mediterranean. They’d go into a little Turkish town somewhere, they’d find the first five guys they saw and they would crucify them. And then you know that town was really easy to manage for the next few years.

And so you make examples out of people who are in this case not compliant with the law. Find people who are not compliant with the law, and you hit them as hard as you can and you make examples out of them, and there is a deterrent effect there.

And, companies that are smart see that, they don’t want to play that game, and they decide at that point that it’s time to clean up.



http://www.theblaze.com/stories/epa-official-on-non-compliant-companies-hit-them-as-hard-as-you-can%E2%80%99-make-examples-out-of-them/

2,4-D was called AGENT YELLOW, 2,4,5-T was called AGENT ORANGE. Remember what happened in VietNam. How many vets died of cancer, I knew one.

Why are we still using it? Why can we buy it in the garden supply?

Yeah the smell tells all. Roundup is soda pop in comparison.

[color=blue:2f60b9ba63]2-4D was applied to 7 acres on oats here, in '10, right now not much is growing in there, its tan, everything else is green, but with the rains and time, has to be long gone, but man that stuff reeks to no end when applied, I've ridden in several spray rigs, on many acres too, really are not many options for large acreages to keep weeds down is there ? [/color:2f60b9ba63]

Not much growing since 24D applied in 2010? You got a problem other than 24D, UNLESS it was applied at way to high rate. and I mean way too high, not 2 or 3 times recommended rate. In that case still not a 24D problem, it is a human problem. Bet you don't know aspirin is more toxic than 24D. Heck you put too much organic cow chit out and it will ruin your crop.

Imagine if there had never been RR crops. There would be a lot less BTO's. The easier it gets to grow corn the more the big guys can run and the fewer the farmers. I've seen it for the last 15 years. No RR meant much more tillage, more work, more humans actually farming... I doubt that the 2-4-d deal will change much, but unless you currently farm huge acres RR did nothing but lower the value of your corn. Its all economics, the easier it gets the harder it is to stay and make money. I myself farm part time, if everyone had to cultivate again everyone would farm a lot less acres. You guys and I could compete on a level playing field with the bigger guys.

I understand your concerns on the pond, and other concerns.

24D has kept your property brown since 2010???? That just doesn't register as right, grasses will grow fine in it, and boradleaves will come back - 24D does not have a very good residual effect. Something is not right with that paragraph?

Hopefully you have a buffer strip by the pond, some folks plant right up to the edges of waterways - me I keep a field road next to my ditch, 30 feet or so of grass, make hay of it, keeps things from running into the ditch so much.

--->Paul

So you think raising input costs is a good thing?

You betcha.

He needs to go, as does his boss and her boss.

Dean

Just love these black and white arguments. Sure, it would be a lot easier if either the "greeinies" or Dow Chemical had nothing but our best interests in mind, unfortunately they both have agendas.

Being able to feed the world is a good thing. Not having to breath potentially carcinogenic chemicals sprayed by your upwind neighbor is also a good thing.

People think they can do better than nature provides:roll: ,...all they have managed to do so far is "F things up for everybody.

Last year, it was not planted, and it looked the same as now, give or take a few weeks, as the weather conditions are different, weeds came up, so did some grasses, there was quite a few patches of that tall stalky weed, that has thick green felt like leaves, actually a good looking plant, till it tops, has arms like cactus, gets 7 feet tall, birds like the seeds off it, those grew well it seems. I mowed it late, when it was tan and like straw.


This field does hold moisture, low/bottom area between 2 slopes, crops do fine when rain lacks, for the most part etc. So, figuring with this warmer weather, though we had been real dry until last weekend, weeds and grasses would start like the other nearby areas. Its hard to say what is going on, but I would think in a few weeks, something would be coming up as the farmer won't be planting this ground anymore, due to health and turning all his ground to hay, which is easier to do.

There is a small buffer strip, but I remember in the past the erosion on that field, large ruts, ditches, local guy with a D6 used to come repair those, then he started alternating strips of alfalfa and corn.

I'm not sure, but it is odd looking at this field right now, still tan with what came up in it last year, some odd short kind of weed/grass and those other things, (see response above). He's used 2-4D every year he planted this I believe and the crops were usually good, its just odd starting the 2nd year being left fallow, things might just be stunted from being so darned dry too.

I don't understand the human problem part of your response, or being part of why nothing is growing, I had always assumed that rains dilute and wash away 2-4D, as the oats start to tan and lose the shading effect, weeds do come up and you need to get those oats harvested before you get ragweed or other seeds, as well as the straw being contaminated with weeds, which ruins it for selling. We harvested some oats for the large dairy in town, fields they did not spray at all, straw was worthless and the grain was ok, but not like ours, some other seeds in it.

Its simple economics, guys can farm considerably more acres using RR, not input cost wise, time available wise. It enables the big acre guys to get bigger. No bean tillage, lower corn tillage, very little spraying, no cultivating, etc. Roundup doesn't cost too much, mechanically cultivating costs next to nothing other than time and small amount of fuel, so cost of inputs is not even a consideration. The BTO's couldn't eat up all the ground as well without Roundup. That would leave some ground for all the normal guys that can't pay 8,000/acre or 300/acre cash rent. If you didn't or don't understand then...

So if it doesn't change the input cost why would anyone use it?

I thought corn was already 2,4d resistant. Corn is a grass, 2,4d dosen't bother other grasses with normal doses. Usually corn growers try to spray one herbicide, used to be Atrazine(sp) to control both grass and weeds.

I used 2,4d on the lawn last year to try to kill dandelions. Need more application this year. 2,4d did not bother the grass. Need to apply some to the pasture for Canada Thistle and dog fennel.

If 2,4d gets on tomatoes I'm sure it would damage them, like the NYT article said. I have no idea whether the spray would drift as far as they said, maybe in a very strong wind, but I have my doubts.

KEH

Its a cheaper system that has given rise to producing corn/beans with much less effort. Sounds good for all farmers. However this has also given the Big time operations the ability to take on more and more ground further squeezing the normal farmer out. Once again the guy who can't pay $300 cash rent. It also has taken the farmer further from the land and increased our dependence on chemical farming versus conventional. If you still don't understand my point then I guess we'll have to disagree. Maybe you farm 5000 acres and love Roundup. I'm done discussing it.

I would disagree with anyone who says that round up is the reason that big operators have become the norm. Look at the price of equipment and tell me how you can by a new tractor farming 500 acres. Yes used equipment can get the job done as does on my farm none of my tractors are newer than 78. Furthermore it is not one chemical that allows for no till systems to be effective it is the use of 2, or 3 complementary herbicides that makes the system effective. To you die hard tillage guys, think erosion this is my first year no tilling and in some cases I can see a major difference in the loss of soil and condition of ditches in the field already. Furthermore, this system allows me to farm and run cattle nearly without outside labor which I can not afford. Chemicals are a vauable tool to each and every farmer regardless of size but must be used responsibly.

Erik Ks farmer: BACK off on the attitude buddy. Many of us till our ground because notill does not work for us. You have just planted that no till crop. That does not make you a real life expert on no till. No till is easy as heck to plant. Just go out and drive around pulling your planter. Then just go out and drive around some more spraying a bunch of chemicals on. Seems pretty simple. BIG question here??? Possible soil savings verses using a lot of chemicals. Which is safer in the long term????

The reason I say possible soil saving is that I farm ground that you would be scared to drive a tractor on. I have contour strips, grass water ways, terraces, cossy dikes with stand pipes drains. I have little erosion. The notill guys that farm the whole field with out the erosion controls I have loss more soil. They have ditches form in one place that you can bury a car in.

Now the hard part. What is your yield going to be this year?? How about next year?? Then how do you handle the manure that your livestock is going to produce??

I started notilling before you where born. I did it for five years straight because all the experts told me that it would take that long for my yields to get back up. Well in the sixth year I could not stand the losses any longer. Broke the chisel plow out worked all of the corn ground. Fertilized the same as when I was notilling. Had a forty bushel yield jump!!!!

Two years after quiting the notill corn I broke the 200 bushel mark on my corn. This was in 1985. I have notill some corn into bean stubble since then but never corn on corn. I notill most of my soybeans.

So I wish you luck on your crop. Just you remember what works on the experts land and your neighbor's land may not work on your land.

As for the chemicals. I use them because I have to produce the crop at a competitive cost. DO I like using them??? NO!!! I am not convinced that the modern production agriculture we do today is going to be good for the long term.

I have a sister that even Roundup will put in the hospital. She gets a breath of almost any chemical and she can't breathe. That is in the house with the windows closed. She was riding with me down the road one day. We passed the county spraying the road ditch. We where going 55 mph with the AC on. In about five minutes she was having trouble getting a breathe of air. She was able to use some of the meds she carries and did not have to go to the hospital. I know her problems are very rare. Do we know what the long term effect will be on the rest of us??? Modern chemicals have only been used for about sixty years. No one knows the long term effects for sure yet.

Nah... What would happen is corn would come from somewhere else where the use of RR corn was acceptable... and the entire industry dies bit by bit, day by day until it's gone.
When you live in an area where the industry has basically died... because of the kind of thinking you advocate... you'll mabey believe me. But it won't matter at that point.

Rod

(quoted from post at 14:18:53 04/26/12)
I thought corn was already 2,4d resistant. Corn is a grass, 2,4d dosen't bother other grasses with normal doses. Usually corn growers try to spray one herbicide, used to be Atrazine(sp) to control both grass and weeds.

I used 2,4d on the lawn last year to try to kill dandelions. Need more application this year. 2,4d did not bother the grass. Need to apply some to the pasture for Canada Thistle and dog fennel.

If 2,4d gets on tomatoes I'm sure it would damage them, like the NYT article said. I have no idea whether the spray would drift as far as they said, maybe in a very strong wind, but I have my doubts.

KEH

Click to expand...

My thoughts also.....we always sprayed cornfields with 2 4-D for sunflowers and cockleburs back in the 60's and 70's. Guess the "new" varieties are broadleaf - WTF?

(quoted from post at 20:42:01 04/26/12)

(quoted from post at 14:18:53 04/26/12)
I thought corn was already 2,4d resistant. Corn is a grass, 2,4d dosen't bother other grasses with normal doses. Usually corn growers try to spray one herbicide, used to be Atrazine(sp) to control both grass and weeds.

I used 2,4d on the lawn last year to try to kill dandelions. Need more application this year. 2,4d did not bother the grass. Need to apply some to the pasture for Canada Thistle and dog fennel.

If 2,4d gets on tomatoes I'm sure it would damage them, like the NYT article said. I have no idea whether the spray would drift as far as they said, maybe in a very strong wind, but I have my doubts.

KEH

Click to expand...

My thoughts also.....we always sprayed cornfields with 2 4-D for sunflowers and cockleburs back in the 60's and 70's. Guess the "new" varieties are broadleaf - WTF?

Click to expand...

24D does very little damage to corn if sprayed in the right stage. That window is very small. If you miss that window you will have some damage. Some of the corn will brake off in a short while or later it will just fall over. I won't kill or turn it brown, the loss is falling or braking. The amount of loss depends on the stage of growth when applied and variety. Some varieties ore more tolerant than others. I have found that Generally that loss is less than if it had not been sprayed and the corn had to compete with the weeds.